Franklin Graham says ‘Christian nationalism’ is a ‘coin the media came up with’

Michie · Jul 30, 2024

Evangelist Franklin Graham, the son of legendary evangelist Billy Graham, said in a recent interview that the term "Christian nationalism" is often used by the media as a tactic to polarize and divide the country.

Continued below.

Franklin Graham says ‘Christian nationalism’ is a ‘coin the media came up with’

Evangelist Franklin Graham, the son of legendary evangelist Billy Graham, said in a recent interview that the term Christian nationalism is often used by the media as a tactic to polarize and divide

www.christianpost.com

chevyontheriver · Jul 30, 2024

Michie said:
Evangelist Franklin Graham, the son of legendary evangelist Billy Graham, said in a recent interview that the term "Christian nationalism" is often used by the media as a tactic to polarize and divide the country.

Continued below.

Franklin Graham says ‘Christian nationalism’ is a ‘coin the media came up with’

Evangelist Franklin Graham, the son of legendary evangelist Billy Graham, said in a recent interview that the term Christian nationalism is often used by the media as a tactic to polarize and divide

www.christianpost.com

I agree. But then I did see a billboard for Christian Nationalism that had five bullet points and one of them was 'Protestant Christianity'.

FireDragon76 · Jul 30, 2024

That's because Christian nationalism is a polarizing ideology. Especially considering over 1/3 the country isn't Christian, and the numbers are even higher among younger cohorts. And there really is no such thing as "Christianity" in the abstract, there hasn't been for hundreds of years.

RileyG · Jul 30, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
I agree. But then I did see a billboard for Christian Nationalism that had five bullet points and one of them was 'Protestant Christianity'.

Yeah, it doesn’t represent Catholicism or Orthodoxy at all.

FireDragon76 · Jul 30, 2024

RileyG said:
Yeah, it doesn’t represent Catholicism or Orthodoxy at all.

Mainline Protestants also aren't necessarily represented by Christian nationalism, for similar reasons.

RileyG · Jul 30, 2024

FireDragon76 said:
Mainline Protestants also aren't necessarily represented by Christian nationalism, for similar reasons.

Yes! I meant to add them as well. Thank you for reminding me.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 31, 2024

I find the objections to Christian Nationalism to be mostly based on the secular character of a state like the USA. That is, to have laws or policies implemented with the explicit purpose of supporting Christianity, would violate the principles of the USA and would be an unfair imposition on non-Christians. The problem being that all law is an imposition and there is no law which is free of some principle.

FireDragon76 said:
That's because Christian nationalism is a polarizing ideology. Especially considering over 1/3 the country isn't Christian, and the numbers are even higher among younger cohorts. And there really is no such thing as "Christianity" in the abstract, there hasn't been for hundreds of years.

Source? I'd say the Nicene Creed is a pretty good abstract of what most Christians believe. It is not as if different Christian denominations could not agree on certain priorities be they Catholic, Orthodox or Protestants. We can agree on common social teachings of marriage and morality.

okay · Jul 31, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I find the objections to Christian Nationalism to be mostly based on the secular character of a state like the USA. That is, to have laws or policies implemented with the explicit purpose of supporting Christianity, would violate the principles of the USA and would be an unfair imposition on non-Christians. The problem being that all law is an imposition and there is no law which is free of some principle.

As a Christian and a citizen of the US I am against Christian nationalism. It violates the constitution and restricts religious liberty. It would not be loving my Hindu, Jewish, Muslim and other non-Christian neighbors. Edit: it would also not be loving fellow Christians who have different beliefs - there are a gazillion denominations after all!

Under such a system:

What interpretation of the bible would be taught in public schools? Would public school teachers be allowed to teach any science or history that contradicts that particular interpretation? Would teachers be leading prayer? If so, what is allowed? Praying in tongues? Hail Mary? Or if they have to read pre-written prayers, who gets to write them?

Some supporters are for idolatry and blasphemy laws. Who gets to write them?Fundamentalists? Do they count icons as idols? Would my Hindu friends now be in violation of the law?

What limitations do they decide to impose on who can get birth control?

Nope. I want no part of this.

okay · Jul 31, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I'd say the Nicene Creed is a pretty good abstract of what most Christians believe

That might be true, but only last month the largest protestant denomination in the US (SBC) decided against adopting it. There are of course other non-creedal denominations as well, including the one I have been in the past 5 years.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
We can agree on common social teachings of marriage and morality.

So funny! Haven't you noticed how denominations have been splitting over these things? We do not agree. We need freedom, not whichever group controls the government at the moment to dictate what is and is not 'Christian'.

Using the power of the government to impose my religious beliefs and culture on everyone else is not doing unto others what I would have them do to me. I do not believe supporting Christian nationalism is following the example of Christ.

EDIT: removed a few sentences because I thought they might be inflamatory. Sorry!

public hermit · Jul 31, 2024

I think it's pretty clear there are Christians in America who have trouble differentiating between their faith and their politics. It all seems to run together, which is not good for our system of government and the founding ideas of this country, and it's horrible for faith.

American Christians seem prone to Christian nationalism, and I think the realization that one has identified their faith and politics can create an identity crisis of sorts, which is not comfortable but needs to be worked through.

There are two kinds of kingdoms, God's kingdom and the kingdoms of the world. The USA is a worldly kingdom even at its best, and followers of Christ have to make that distinction clear in their own minds and hearts.

chevyontheriver · Jul 31, 2024

public hermit said:
I think it's pretty clear there are Christians in America who have trouble differentiating between their faith and their politics. It all seems to run together, which is not good for our system of government and the founding ideas of this country, and it's horrible for faith.

American Christians seem prone to Christian nationalism, and I think the realization that one has identified their faith and politics can create an identity crisis of sorts, which is not comfortable but needs to be worked through.

There are two kinds of kingdoms, God's kingdom and the kingdoms of the world. The USA is a worldly kingdom even at its best, and followers of Christ have to make that distinction clear in their own minds and hearts.

Do you think then that there can be a Christian Nationalism of the Left? I had never before thought of that possibility but I could see it now.

public hermit · Jul 31, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
Do you think then that there can be a Christian Nationalism of the Left? I had never before thought of that possibility but I could see it now.

Perhaps so. In general, I think nationalism and Christianity have had a very "natural" connection in this country. It's been very easy to confuse faith and love for country (love of country is not nationalism but the difference can be fine points for some). So, I think there's been a too close identification all along. Undoing that could be as much an issue for someone on the left as for someone on the right.

But there are surely Christians on the left who believe not only their political positions are the best but that they are also commensurate with the way of Jesus. Is that a happy accident or are they trying to institute their faith into the system? I think the reasonable, Christian position for me is to see that neither side captures everything I care about as a Christian; whereas, both sides can capture some of what I care about.

Maybe the issue is more general. I think politics has replaced religion for a lot of people. For some (many?), their political position has taken on a lot of the heavy lifting that was once carried by religion. It has become people's identity, their faith, their hope, and each party has its own orthodoxy and criteria for heresy. Politics in our culture have taken on aspects of religious devotion. Maybe those on the left are not as much Christian nationalists as they are religiously devoted to their positions. I would consider either one of those a problem. We need to move to the middle.

Tuur · Jul 31, 2024

If there was Christian Nationalism on the Left, I don't think the media would admit it. Note that there are Christians who took what once were considered left-wing views because they saw that as exercising their faith. Oddly, the media was silent about that.

iluvatar5150 · Jul 31, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
Do you think then that there can be a Christian Nationalism of the Left? I had never before thought of that possibility but I could see it now.

In theory, sure, but that's not really how the various factions and ideologies have aligned in the US. In the US, religiosity and especially nationalism tend to be associated with the right. Obviously there are religious groups on the left, but they're less numerous and less powerful than those on the right. I'm struggling to even think of a group or ideology in the US that could be considered left-wing and nationalist.

FireDragon76 · Jul 31, 2024

Christian nationalism, by its very nature, is an ideology of the political Right. There may be some Democrats influenced to some degree by Christian nationalism, due to the fact Christian nationalism is more of an ideological spectrum than a formalized socalia movement. For instance, some Black Christians score high on Christian nationalist questionaires, but what that means is probably very different from what a white person construes to be Christian nationalism.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 31, 2024

okay said:
As a Christian and a citizen of the US I am against Christian nationalism. It violates the constitution and restricts religious liberty. It would not be loving my Hindu, Jewish, Muslim and other non-Christian neighbors. Edit: it would also not be loving fellow Christians who have different beliefs - there are a gazillion denominations after all!

As a Christian who values Christianity first and foremost I am for the Idea of a religiously oriented society and not the sort of society you desire. This is the historic Christian norm. As for being loving to Christians with different beliefs what do you mean? Some 'Christian' denominations and their opinions mean less than others. Like Episcopalians who are less likely to belief Christian doctrine.

okay said:
Under such a system:

What interpretation of the bible would be taught in public schools? Would public school teachers be allowed to teach any science or history that contradicts that particular interpretation? Would teachers be leading prayer? If so, what is allowed? Praying in tongues? Hail Mary? Or if they have to read pre-written prayers, who gets to write them?

It could be agreed upon locally, denominational public schools could be set up. A curriculum would be written by Christian educational professionals. Do you believe Christian education is inferior to a purely secular education?

okay said:
Some supporters are for idolatry and blasphemy laws. Who gets to write them?Fundamentalists? Do they count icons as idols? Would my Hindu friends now be in violation of the law?

I guess it would depend on what those who run the state agree to. Public displays of foreign gods may indeed be forbidden in a Christian state but why is this wrong from a Christian perspective? Why does a Christian state have to cater to Hindus and treat all religions equally?

okay said:
What limitations do they decide to impose on who can get birth control?

Nope. I want no part of this.

They could impose any limitation they want on birth control. Would it not be up to the state or entity to decide this? I

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 31, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
Do you think then that there can be a Christian Nationalism of the Left? I had never before thought of that possibility but I could see it now.

The left being inherently secular and progressive cannot be Christian or Nationalist. Left leaning Christians will argue for all sorts of policy positions based on their understanding of Christianity but in the end it isn't so much their Christianity that informs their worldview but liberal enlightenment that animates them. The left, as far as I can tell, believes in a complete separation of religion from power.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Jul 31, 2024

okay said:
That might be true, but only last month the largest protestant denomination in the US (SBC) decided against adopting it. There are of course other non-creedal denominations as well, including the one I have been in the past 5 years.

Okay, then I'm not going to consider them as Christians. Period. If you cannot adopt the Nicene Creed and it's positions you are not a Christian. That means if you reject the resurrection, if you reject Jesus was God incarnate (as I believe some here do), then you have forfeited your Christianity. Unlike you I don't think Christianity needs to be as inclusive as possible, that's part of the problem.

okay said:
So funny! Haven't you noticed how denominations have been splitting over these things? We do not agree. We need freedom, not whichever group controls the government at the moment to dictate what is and is not 'Christian'.

Mostly Protestant denominations that adhere to a principle of Sola Scriptura and remove the authority of tradition. Freedom is not actually a benefit to holding the Christian community together and it instead leads to the development of heretical offshoots. I do not have to consider many who call themselves Christians as Christians. Nor is it the government who defines this, rather for me it is the Church.

okay said:
Using the power of the government to impose my religious beliefs and culture on everyone else is not doing unto others what I would have them do to me. I do not believe supporting Christian nationalism is following the example of Christ.

I do believe in imposing some of my religious beliefs and culture on people in a community which agrees with me. Mainly because that's how one preserves said values in society and that we do not as Christians have to endorse or work for the equal place of everyone within society. If I went to Israel for instance and spat on the wailing wall I would expect to be arrested, not have that action tolerated because of some secular principle of freedom of expression. This is because somethings are inherently valuable and the only way you protect them is through law and punishment.

Why for instance do I have to support same sex marriage? Your argument would lead me to doing this because they accept heterosexual marriage and therefore I don't have the right to not recognize their union. This is actually how you undermine Christian society with views like your own, because you are seeking to be universal and not particular. I support the particular, the superiority of Christianity. You support the universal and equalizing of every group and every ideology.

chevyontheriver · Jul 31, 2024

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
The left being inherently secular and progressive cannot be Christian or Nationalist. Left leaning Christians will argue for all sorts of policy positions based on their understanding of Christianity but in the end it isn't so much their Christianity that informs their worldview but liberal enlightenment that animates them. The left, as far as I can tell, believes in a complete separation of religion from power.

And yet Joe Biden considers himself to be a faithful Catholic, following in his own mind what he thinks his religion teaches. I think there may indeed be a Christian Nationalism of the Left. Even Kamala Harris revealed how she spoke with her pastor when Biden dropped out.

Michie · Jul 31, 2024

chevyontheriver said:
And yet Joe Biden considers himself to be a faithful Catholic, following in his own mind what he thinks his religion teaches. I think there may indeed be a Christian Nationalism of the Left. Even Kamala Harris revealed how she spoke with her pastor when Biden dropped out.

There is their version of Christian Nationalism for sure. I’ve noticed it long ago.

Franklin Graham says ‘Christian nationalism’ is a ‘coin the media came up with’

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