Obadiah is a yet future prophecy.

Jamdoc · Jun 15, 2024

keras said:
As I said, the Seventh Seal is a gap; of a half hour in heaven and of about 15/20 years earth time.
This truth may seem hard to grasp, but why? Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 give us the formula and God gives the brains to calculate it.

It's not meant to be a formula. It's just a concept that God measures time differently
and if you're going to do that
why do you hold that the Day of the Lord is 1 24 hour day?

keras said:
Sure: there are flashbacks and details to clarify things in Revelation, as in most books.
But the general sequence of the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls is sacrosanct and is meddled with at the risk if incurring the curses of Rev 22:18-19

the trumpets and bowls also have duplicate details and details that compliment each other, such as the 6th trumpet and bowl both involving the Euphrates and armies crossing it.

keras · Jun 15, 2024

Jamdoc said:
It's not meant to be a formula. It's just a concept that God measures time differently
and if you're going to do that
why do you hold that the Day of the Lord is 1 24 hour day?

But the statement of 1 day to the Lord equals a thousand years on earth is a formula, or its just meaningless.

The DoL will be a single 24 hr day, as we are told: Rev 18:8, Zechariah 3:9, Psalms 50:1-3, Isaiah 22:5, Isaiah 47:9, +

Jamdoc said:
the trumpets and bowls also have duplicate details and details that compliment each other, such as the 6th trumpet and bowl both involving the Euphrates and armies crossing it.

I do not see any genuine conflation of the Seals, Trumpets or Bowls.
John makes the 21 separate events clear by saying: After that....., or Then I saw.....

Jamdoc · Jun 16, 2024

keras said:
But the statement of 1 day to the Lord equals a thousand years on earth is a formula, or its just meaningless.

The DoL will be a single 24 hr day, as we are told: Rev 18:8, Zechariah 3:9, Psalms 50:1-3, Isaiah 22:5, Isaiah 47:9, +

I do not see any genuine conflation of the Seals, Trumpets or Bowls.
John makes the 21 separate events clear by saying: After that....., or Then I saw.....

those connecting terms are not used after every vision.

there's a few times where it's used explicitly to make something chronological, namely Revelation 7 is Chronological after Revelation 6, that is, it's not a flash forward, and Revelation 18 and 19, to show that Babylon is destroyed after the 7th bowl, and (but Babylon isn't set up after the 7th bowl, Revelation 17 is explaining something that was a background information that had happened prior to the bowls), and that there are people in heaven when Babylon is destroyed cheering its destruction.

But Revelation 12 does not have a clause like that to make it Chronological from Revelation 11.
It's a separate vision.
There are multiple separate visions in Revelation, some of them communicate different details on something that was already talked about before.

keras · Jun 16, 2024

Jamdoc said:
those connecting terms are not used after every vision.

But they are numerologically a sequence. And the Seals are first, the first five when Jesus Ascended to heaven, Rev 5:7, then the 6th and 7th, at the commencement of the end times, then later, the Trumpets and the Bowls of the Great Trib. It cannot be sensible to mix them up.

Jamdoc said:
there are people in heaven when Babylon is destroyed cheering its destruction.

They are not living people. That refers to the souls of the Christian martyrs, who are enabled to cry out at times. Rev 6:9-11

Jamdoc · Jun 16, 2024

keras said:
But they are numerologically a sequence. And the Seals are first, the first five when Jesus Ascended to heaven, Rev 5:7, then the 6th and 7th, at the commencement of the end times, then later, the Trumpets and the Bowls of the Great Trib. It cannot be sensible to mix them up.

Now who's adding to the words?
The scripture says nothing about the timing of the first 5 seals, and the only guide to the 6th seal is that it has the signs of the Day of the Lord.

keras said:
They are not living people. That refers to the souls of the Christian martyrs, who are enabled to cry out at times. Rev 6:9-11

Doesn't say they're not living people, they're wearing clothes, I'd argue they're alive, more alive than you and I.

The Liturgist · Jun 16, 2024

keras said:
But the statement of 1 day to the Lord equals a thousand years on earth is a formula, or its just meaningless.

On the contrary, since we know from John 1:3 that all things were made through our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, one of three coequal and coeternal persons of the Trinity, (together with the Holy Spirit, who eternally proceeds from God the Father, and who together with God the Son, abides in the unity of the unoriginate Divine Essence of the Father, with all three being worshipped and glorified, and the Son additionally having become incarnate, conceived by the Holy Spirit and born by the Blessed Virgin Mary, and thus in His incarnation is consubstantial with humanity as well as with the Father, as we confess in the Nicene Creed), and since God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is eternal and unchanging, according to Scripture, and is not dependent on His creation for His existence, although He is omnipresent within it, God is not subject to time, and that is clearly what this verse is seeking to convey, in language that your average Jew from the Second Temple era would understand, that God exists in eternity, and that the passage great amounts of time for humans does not impact God in any way, for He transcends time and space, existing “unto the ages of ages.”

What is more, we can regard the prophecy of St. Obadiah as fulfilled, since the Edomites no longer exist as a recognizable nation, ethnicity, or demographic and anthropological category. Their civilization was entirely absorbed and assimilated by Second Temple Judaism to the extent that their culture was subsumed writ large.

Jamdoc · Jun 16, 2024

The Liturgist said:
On the contrary, since we know from John 1:3 that all things were made through our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten Son and Word of God, one of three coequal and coeternal persons of the Trinity, (together with the Holy Spirit, who eternally proceeds from God the Father, and who together with God the Son, abides in the unity of the unoriginate Divine Essence of the Father, with all three being worshipped and glorified, and the Son additionally having become incarnate, conceived by the Holy Spirit and born by the Blessed Virgin Mary, and thus in His incarnation is consubstantial with humanity as well as with the Father, as we confess in the Nicene Creed), and since God, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost is eternal and unchanging, according to Scripture, and is not dependent on His creation for His existence, although He is omnipresent within it, God is not subject to time, and that is clearly what this verse is seeking to convey, in language that your average Jew from the Second Temple era would understand, that God exists in eternity, and that the passage great amounts of time for humans does not impact God in any way, for He transcends time and space, existing “unto the ages of ages.”

I agree with this part. I don't see Psalm 90 or 2 Peter 3:8 as equations but it shows a concept. I understand that that concept comes from Adam's lifespan, where they get the "equivalency" of a day = 1000 years (and which I consider Revelation 20 to also be referring to, the Day of the Lord being the "thousand years") but it's not meant to be a Mathematical formula. Certainly not to where you can deduce half an hour in heaven as being a number of years on earth or an hour being a number of years on earth etc.

But what it means is that God's idea of "soon" is not always what we'd consider to be "soon", It's been thousands of years.

The Liturgist said:
View attachment 350252

What is more, we can regard the prophecy of St. Obadiah as fulfilled, since the Edomites no longer exist as a recognizable nation, ethnicity, or demographic and anthropological category. Their civilization was entirely absorbed and assimilated by Second Temple Judaism to the extent that their culture was subsumed writ large.

This I disagree with. being absorbed is not the same thing as being cut off forever. They may not still identify with a name but they still are the descendants of Esau, and while some were forcefully converted to Judaism in the past, now they practice Islam and are once again, Enemies of Israel that currently have a peace agreement with them.
The 10 Northern Tribes were absorbed after being taken by the Assyrians, we don't see them as a distinct ethnic group anymore.
However Revelation 7 promises that they still exist, and God has a number of them... except Ephraim and Dan.
They're gone and they don't come back.
Ephraim (the house of Jeroboam in particular) is said to be cut off in 1 Kings 14, that God would keep removing the remnant of that house until there were none left. Sure enough, Revelation 7, there is no Ephraim.

So when Obadiah 1:8-10 talks about Esau being cut off forever.. and specifies that it'll be by slaughter, it's not just forced conversion to Judaism.
It's every single one of them is killed. It's Genocide, specifically by slaughter.

keras · Jun 16, 2024

Jamdoc said:
The scripture says nothing about the timing of the first 5 seals

Actually Zechariah 1:8-11 and 6:1-7 does say those four types of Gods Judgment on the earth were present from ancient times. But it seems that Jesus gave them the powers as described in Revelation 6:1-8 Because mankind has experienced terrible wars, famines and plagues over the past 2000 years.
The proof is the Fifth Seal; who are all the Christian martyrs since Stephen.

Jamdoc said:
Doesn't say they're not living people, they're wearing clothes, I'd argue they're alive, more alive than you and I.

Rev 6:9-11 says they are just the souls of the martyrs and they are kept under the Altar. Not living in any way.
I contend that their 'crying out', is just metaphorical or spiritual.

The Liturgist said:
On the contrary

Why do you feel it necessary to make the plain statements of Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8 into a long winded spiel?
I take the truth of a thousand years of earth time, being like a day in heaven; literally.

People who make out the Seventh Seal to be anything other than what is said in Rev 8:1, are adding to Revelation. Not advisable.
It simply tells us that the end time events will take about 15/20 years. Which is about right for all the Prophesies from Rev 6:12, to Rev 19:10

Jamdoc said:
It's every single one of them is killed. It's Genocide, specifically by slaughter.

The Lord will destroy Edom/Esau Himself. At the Sixth Seal, Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath; Isaiah 63:1-6

Jamdoc · Jun 17, 2024

keras said:
Actually Zechariah 1:8-11 and 6:1-7 does say those four types of Gods Judgment on the earth were present from ancient times. But it seems that Jesus gave them the powers as described in Revelation 6:1-8 Because mankind has experienced terrible wars, famines and plagues over the past 2000 years.
The proof is the Fifth Seal; who are all the Christian martyrs since Stephen.

Rev 6:9-11 says they are just the souls of the martyrs and they are kept under the Altar. Not living in any way.
I contend that their 'crying out', is just metaphorical or spiritual.

at that point yes, prior to the 6th seal, but they change after the 6th seal, the way they act is totally different. They go from begging for God to avenge them to cheering and praising, and go from being handed white robes, to wearing them and carrying objects in their hands, and no longer being identified as souls.

keras said:
The Lord will destroy Edom/Esau Himself. At the Sixth Seal, Day of the Lords vengeance and wrath; Isaiah 63:1-6

On this part we agree on the surface, but you don't believe Jesus will be on Earth doing that, I do.

The Liturgist · Jun 17, 2024

Jamdoc said:
I agree with this part. I don't see Psalm 90 or 2 Peter 3:8 as equations but it shows a concept. I understand that that concept comes from Adam's lifespan, where they get the "equivalency" of a day = 1000 years (and which I consider Revelation 20 to also be referring to, the Day of the Lord being the "thousand years") but it's not meant to be a Mathematical formula. Certainly not to where you can deduce half an hour in heaven as being a number of years on earth or an hour being a number of years on earth etc.

But what it means is that God's idea of "soon" is not always what we'd consider to be "soon", It's been thousands of years.

This I disagree with. being absorbed is not the same thing as being cut off forever. They may not still identify with a name but they still are the descendants of Esau, and while some were forcefully converted to Judaism in the past, now they practice Islam and are once again, Enemies of Israel that currently have a peace agreement with them.
The 10 Northern Tribes were absorbed after being taken by the Assyrians, we don't see them as a distinct ethnic group anymore.
However Revelation 7 promises that they still exist, and God has a number of them... except Ephraim and Dan.
They're gone and they don't come back.
Ephraim (the house of Jeroboam in particular) is said to be cut off in 1 Kings 14, that God would keep removing the remnant of that house until there were none left. Sure enough, Revelation 7, there is no Ephraim.

So when Obadiah 1:8-10 talks about Esau being cut off forever.. and specifies that it'll be by slaughter, it's not just forced conversion to Judaism.
It's every single one of them is killed. It's Genocide, specifically by slaughter.

You don’t know if any Edomites are still alive, much less if they practice Islam or not. Nor do you know the extent to which their DNA is distributed among Israel. Many could be Christians. The population of the former provinces of Judea and Galilee consisted almost exclusively of Christians from the end of the fourth century until its conquest by the Ummayids in the Seventh Century. Significant numbers of Israeli Arabs, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians and Egyptians are Christians, and just over a third of Lebanese (with Maronites being the second largest religion in the country and the President constitutionally required to be a Maronite Christian, most of whom are Maronite Catholics, who broke away from the Syriac Orthodox in the seventh or early eighth century for reasons which are unknown, and the Syriac Orthodox and the Arabic speaking Greek Orthodox have the second highest number of descendants from ancient Judaism, after the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox, who are majority descended from ancient Judaism, and indeed mostly descended from Jews, since of the converts since then, most have been from the Beta Israel; obviously I am not counting the substantial number of converts from the West Indies.

In Christ, all humans can be forgiven for all sins, unless they refuse to embrace Christ and in so doing blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Jamdoc · Jun 17, 2024

The Liturgist said:
You don’t know if any Edomites are still alive, much less if they practice Islam or not. Nor do you know the extent to which their DNA is distributed among Israel. Many could be Christians. The population of the former provinces of Judea and Galilee consisted almost exclusively of Christians from the end of the fourth century until its conquest by the Ummayids in the Seventh Century. Significant numbers of Israeli Arabs, Palestinians, Syrians, Jordanians and Egyptians are Christians, and just over a third of Lebanese (with Maronites being the second largest religion in the country and the President constitutionally required to be a Maronite Christian, most of whom are Maronite Catholics, who broke away from the Syriac Orthodox in the seventh or early eighth century for reasons which are unknown, and the Syriac Orthodox and the Arabic speaking Greek Orthodox have the second highest number of descendants from ancient Judaism, after the Ethiopian and Eritrean Orthodox, who are majority descended from ancient Judaism, and indeed mostly descended from Jews, since of the converts since then, most have been from the Beta Israel; obviously I am not counting the substantial number of converts from the West Indies.

In Christ, all humans can be forgiven for all sins, unless they refuse to embrace Christ and in so doing blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Okay
but the Prophet said they will be cut off forever by slaughter.
not conversion.

and connecting Isaiah 34, Isaiah 63, Revelation 14, and Revelation 19.. yeah
there's a great slaughter in Idumea, and Jesus' vestments will be dipped in their blood.

I realize a lot of people like the Lamb.. and.. are less willing to discuss the Lion.

th1bill · Jun 17, 2024

Jamdoc said:
Okay
but the Prophet said they will be cut off forever by slaughter.
not conversion.

and connecting Isaiah 34, Isaiah 63, Revelation 14, and Revelation 19.. yeah
there's a great slaughter in Idumea, and Jesus' vestments will be dipped in their blood.

I realize a lot of people like the Lamb.. and.. are less willing to discuss the Lion.

Cute but true statement to end with. I did a study led by a Christian author about 30 years ago that demonstrated Yahovah's prophecies are often completed two or three times and it was a study of this single chapter book. The was Edom and the second Edom was Rome and the third nation identifying itself with an Eagle nested in a bed of stars is my nation, the U.S.

keras · Jun 17, 2024

Jamdoc said:
at that point yes, prior to the 6th seal, but they change after the 6th seal, the way they act is totally different. They go from begging for God to avenge them to cheering and praising, and go from being handed white robes, to wearing them and carrying objects in their hands, and no longer being identified as souls.

You confuse the dead martyrs with the living faithful, who John sees in Rev 7:9 & 14

Jamdoc said:
On this part we agree on the surface, but you don't believe Jesus will be on Earth doing that, I do.

From Psalms 11:4-6, and Prophesies like Habakkuk 3:3-15....whereby His might is veiled..... we know the Lord will not be seen on His terrible Day of fiery wrath.

The fate of Edom, yet to happen; is described in Ezekiel 32:29-30

Jamdoc · Jun 17, 2024

th1bill said:
Cute but true statement to end with. I did a study led by a Christian author about 30 years ago that demonstrated Yahovah's prophecies are often completed two or three times and it was a study of this single chapter book. The was Edom and the second Edom was Rome and the third nation identifying itself with an Eagle nested in a bed of stars is my nation, the U.S.

Nah, the US does use an Eagle, but it is not nested in stars. However the Hashemite coat of arms is exactly that

But it does seem to be true that there are imperfect forerunner fulfillments of prophecy in the past, that point to more perfect fulfillments in the future.

During the crucifixion there was the darkening of the sun and moon (that even a Chinese Emperor observed and remarked on, including interpreting that the omen meant a man from heaven had died and all crimes of the world had been put on him and that forgiveness is proclaimed from heaven.. it's wild but that's what even translating the raw Mandarin text got).. so that's the signs of the Day of the Lord, but Jesus proclaimed another fulfillment of those signs and John wrote about it in Revelation 6.

So an imperfect historical fulfillment (like Alexander the Great being an imperfect fulfillment of Daniel 8, there are historical inaccuracies and Gabriel says it's an end time prophecy).. and then a yet future one.
So Edom disappeared as a nation but there are still genetic Edomites in the region, so that was an imperfect fulfillment perhaps, to be followed by a perfect fulfillment where the descendants of Esau are slaughtered.

It's a bit of an uncomfortable thing to consider but it is what God decreed, like with the book of Joshua, man that's a tough read to consider that God would command a genocide but .. He did, and there are consequences that have been far reaching for thousands of years because Israel didn't do it, and made covenants with them instead.

th1bill · Jun 17, 2024

I saw others when I was stationed at Ft. Mead.

Jamdoc · Jun 17, 2024

th1bill said:
View attachment 350300
I saw others when I was stationed at Ft. Mead.

eh, more of a stretch to say "nested" there, the Hashemite one though, the Eagle is on top of it

th1bill · Jun 17, 2024

Jamdoc said:
eh, more of a stretch to say "nested" there, the Hashemite one though, the Eagle is on top of it

That is not too much of a stretch but if I could find the one with the thirteen star nest open at the top I would feel better.

Jamdoc · Jun 18, 2024

th1bill said:
That is not too much of a stretch but if I could find the one with the thirteen star nest open at the top I would feel better.

That and the US has no connection to Esau, you have to allegorize heavily to reach an interpretation like that. The Hashemite one.. that's literal. It's the right region, people descended from the right ethic group, and they are basically considered cousins ethnically, where the Lord judges Esau based on betrayal of Israel by Jacob's brother, Esau.
The US just doesn't have any of this, not genetically related, is not a neighboring state where captives would be taken into, etc.
also again I tie this with Isaiah 34 and 63, where it's said there will be a slaughter in Idumea (which is the same geographical location as Edom, Idumea is just a translation into the post Babylonian captivity name for the region), and Bozrah
I think the idea of the US being Babylon is less of a stretch, still a bit of one. Sure if this were all to start happening tomorrow then New York City would certainly fit the profile, but things could happen that change the scenery so to say before the 70th week, we could collapse economically, civil war, nuclear war with Russia, etc.
But Edom? Yeah I don't see it, not when a literal fulfillment is possible.

The Liturgist · Jun 19, 2024

@tampasteve I thought this thread might be of interest based on the conversation we had on the Edomites.

Obadiah is a yet future prophecy.

Watching and Praying Always

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Watching and Praying Always

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Watching and Praying Always

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Watching and Praying Always

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Watching and Praying Always

Traditional Liturgical Christian

Watching and Praying Always

A Believer/Follower

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Watching and Praying Always

A Believer/Follower

Watching and Praying Always

A Believer/Follower

Watching and Praying Always

Traditional Liturgical Christian

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