Was Immanuel Fully God and Fully Man?

Minister Monardo · Jun 16, 2024

Matthew 1:
21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus,
for He will save His people from their sins.”
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken
by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son,
and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

I was informed by one with advanced theological training
and a graduate seminar in Christology this statement:
"Christ is one Person, fully God and fully man
from the moment of His conception on Earth and into Heaven".

To accept this, I have to ignore what is known concerning
what He left behind to become a man.

John 17:5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.

Only Peter, James, and John were allowed to see the fullness
of the glory of the Son of God, where they also heard the testimony
of The Father concerning His Son.

2 Peter 1:17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory
when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory:
“This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

At conception? Then what of the crucifixion,
the resurrection, the ascension?

Romans 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power,
according to the spirit of holiness,
by the resurrection from the dead.

This same source goes on to say:
"The one person of the enfleshed Word was perfected on the Cross".
Because of sin, the son of man had to be glorified at the cross,
to perfect obedience.

The Son of God insured that Christ would remain without sin by His Incarnation.
Only the Son of God, manifested in the man Christ Jesus could make this statement:

John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, when you lift up the Son of Man,
then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself;
but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things.

29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone,
for I always do those things that please Him.

The son of man had to be glorified at the cross, to perfect our Messiah as the man Jesus.

Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience
by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author
of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

The obedience of the son of man was perfected at the cross.
John 12:23 But Jesus answered them, saying, the hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified.

John 13:31 So, when he had gone out, Jesus said,
Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God is glorified in Him.

At His Ascension, the Son returned to His Excellent Glory.

2 Corinthians 3:
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious,
so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses
because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory,
the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect,
because of the glory that excels.

Is He now fully God and fully man? He has no blood, so there is no life
of man in Him, He is a glorified, ascended man, and the giver of eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption,
and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”

We are born again by the same incorruptible seed of the incarnation.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed,
but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever.

Christ could not send the Spirit that endues with power until after the Ascension,
when the fullness of His Glory was restored.

John 7: 39 But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those
believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given,
because Jesus was not yet glorified.

The Son of God and son of man were separated by sin and had to be restored to One.
This did not occur simply at His conception, He had to remain without sin to be the
acceptable sacrifice which reconciled man to God. For the life was in the blood
but is now forever in the Son.

Colossians 1:
19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell,
20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things
on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Fervent · Jun 16, 2024

There's a difference between being fully revealed as God, and being fully God. While Jesus' humanity certainly concealed His divinity during His time on Earth, it was not a separate entity. Jesus is a single individual, not two distinct persons. His humanity is true humanity, and His divinity is true God without either denying the other. Jesus is God become man, fully realized in both capacities.

Minister Monardo · Jun 16, 2024

Fervent said:
Jesus is God become man, fully realized in both capacities.

Minus the glory He left behind in heaven.

Mr. M said:
I was informed by one with advanced theological training
and a graduate seminar in Christology this statement:
"Christ is one Person, fully God and fully man
from the moment of His conception on Earth and into Heaven".

To accept this, I have to ignore what is known concerning
what He left behind to become a man.

John 17:5 And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself,
with the glory which I had with You before the world existed.

Only Peter, James, and John were allowed to see the fullness
of the glory of the Son of God, where they also heard the testimony
of The Father concerning His Son.

2 Peter 1:17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory
when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory:
“This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Fervent · Jun 16, 2024

Mr. M said:
Minus the glory He left behind in heaven.

When we say "fully God, fully man" we deny neither, but are speaking of His nature. While Jesus on Earth often didn't realize aspects of His divinity His basic nature remained the same. So He never ceased being God, though aspects of His divinity were muted in His human life. It's a distinction of essences vs energies.

Ivan Hlavanda · Jun 16, 2024

Mr. M said:
The Son of God and son of man were separated by sin and had to be restored to One.

I hope you do not imply that the human nature of Christ was sinful, that would be a blasphemy.

Minister Monardo · Jun 16, 2024

Ivan Hlavanda said:
I hope you do not imply that the human nature of Christ was sinful, that would be a blasphemy.

He was subject to temptation.
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize
with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 2:
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren,
that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things
pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted,
He is able to aid those who are tempted.

The man Jesus Christ not only endured temptation but also the cross,
to perfect the spirit of the sons of men, that all could be glorified.

Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience
by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author
of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

What you call blasphemy, I call the grace of God that brings salvation.

Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing
of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed
and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

By enduring all temptation, Jesus proved God's word to be true:

Genesis 4:
6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.
And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

After remaining without sin and offering Himself as a perfect sacrifice,
He has freely given us the Holy Spirit, that we should rule over sin, without excuse.

Romans 5:17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one,
much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Ivan Hlavanda · Jun 16, 2024

Mr. M said:
He was subject to temptation.
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize
with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin

Yes, He was tempted, but all the temptations where from the outside, meaning there was nothing in Him that would desire to sin. If there was, He would die as any other sinner and He could never offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sins.

Whereas us, we are almost always tempted from the inside, meaning we tempt ourselfs, because our nature is sinful.

Minister Monardo · Jun 16, 2024

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Yes, He was tempted, but all the temptations where from the outside, meaning there was nothing in Him that would desire to sin. If there was, He would die as any other sinner and He could never offer Himself as a sacrifice for our sins.

Whereas us, we are almost always tempted from the inside, meaning we tempt ourselfs, because our nature is sinful.

Mr. M said:
Hebrews 2:
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren,
that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things
pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted,
He is able to aid those who are tempted.

After fasting for 40 days and nights,
the Lord was tempted by Satan himself.
Surely greater than any temptation we will
ever face, and yet remained without sin.
If He was incapable of turning away from His Father's Will,
because of a perfectly sinless nature, it would not be temptation.
Are you sure you have fully meditated on the agony of Christ
in other garden of Gethsemane:
Matthew 26:
38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death.
Stay here and watch with Me.”
39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying,
“O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless,
not as I will, but as You will.”

All unrighteousness and disobedience is sin. No one is saying that Jesus
struggled with lustful desires of the flesh. His temptations were way beyond ours.
The disciples never fully understood many of the things that Christ spoke to them.
Luke 22:28 Ye are they which have continued with me in my temptations.

And yet, they had ample opportunity to fall away, and eventually they all would
abandon him.
John 6:
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Peter confessed the true words of faith concerning the Christ, the Son of God.
Need I mention his denial?

Diamond72 · Jun 16, 2024

Mr. M said:
"Christ is one Person, fully God and fully man
from the moment of His conception on Earth and into Heaven".

Jesus is the gate He is the door. God is the house and Jesus determines who enters in and who has to depart from the house.

Matthew 7:13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.

We see this if we study the meaning of the letters in the Hebrew alphabet.

Ivan Hlavanda · Jun 17, 2024

Mr. M said:
After fasting for 40 days and nights,
the Lord was tempted by Satan himself.

Just because He was tempted, does not mean the temptation came from the inside of Him. There was nothing in Him to desire to sin.
Unlike us, tempted by our own sinful desires. I know this might be hard to comprahand, but there was nothing inside of Jesus tempting Him to sin.
Both His God and Human nature were and are without sin.

Mr. M said:
Are you sure you have fully meditated on the agony of Christ
in other garden of Gethsemane:
Matthew 26:
38 Then He said to them, “My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death.
Stay here and watch with Me.”
39 He went a little farther and fell on His face, and prayed, saying,
“O My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; nevertheless,
not as I will, but as You will.”

Ofc He desired to there be another way. Look what happened at the cross. The Father turned His face away, and the Son did not feel His Father's love for the first and last time...so of course Jesus asked the Father that He does not have to go through that and experience God's wrath. If Jesus desired what happened to Him on the cross, that would be a sin.

You write many things, but you did not answer what I originally asked. You wrote in your first post: 'The Son of God and son of man were separated by sin and had to be restored to One.'
This is simply wrong on so many levels. Btw 'Son of Man' is a Messianic title.

FireDragon76 · Jun 17, 2024

David Bentley Hart lately has been speaking alot about the hypostatic union of Christ's divine and human natures, in terms of an underlying monistic Christology. Humanity and divinity fit together, and are distinct but not separate, and certainly not incompatible, natures.

I also wonder if there isn't something like this in the simple miaphysite Christology of Oriental and Eastern theology, that Jesus is simply one person who is both completely human and completely divine. Or, as Mark Vernon would say, Jesus was both fully human and fully transparent to the Divine. Instead, in the Latin and Protestant tradition, there is a tendency to reify the natures of Christ into something like separate hypostase or substances.

Minister Monardo · Jun 17, 2024

Ivan Hlavanda said:
You write many things, but you did not answer what I originally asked. You wrote in your first post: 'The Son of God and son of man were separated by sin and had to be restored to One.'
This is simply wrong on so many levels. Btw 'Son of Man' is a Messianic title.

Mr. M said:
Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience
by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author
of eternal salvation to all who obey Him,

The obedience of the son of man was perfected at the cross.
John 12:23 But Jesus answered them, saying, the hour has come that the Son of Man should be glorified.

John 13:31 So, when he had gone out, Jesus said,
Now the Son of Man is glorified, and God is glorified in Him.

And you have written many things, without referencing the scriptures that are cited, or making scriptural references of your own that provide the basis for your statements. Let me ask you directly then, who was perfected in suffering and learned obedience, the Son of God, or the Son of man?
The Son of man was glorified on the cross, the Son of God left His glory in heaven to become man.
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

So what is being perfected?
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.

Where was the spirits just men made perfect?
In Christ, on the cross.
Galatians 3:
15 Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man’s covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it. 16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ.

Hebrews 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

If John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb, surely Jesus was also, as Mary conceived by the Holy Spirit. So what spirit descended on Him at His baptism at age 30, and why? He took on the seed of Abraham. Of course Son of man is a Messianic title, but why? To fulfill all the promises made to a man, and his seed, which is Christ. Hence, His self-reference as Son of man, to fulfill all righteousness. Now all men can be one with God, even as the Son of God is One with His Father.
"Wrong on so many levels", name one, found in the scriptures, not seminary taught Christology.
It is true that the temptations of Christ go way beyond the temptations of the sinful nature. It is also true that the temptations of a man who has crucified his flesh by the Holy Spirit, abides in the Spirit such that he cannot sin after the flesh, must also take on the temptations of Christ. This is what Paul is teaching and warning us of.
Philippians 2:
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it [b]robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
John also addressed this in "the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life"
How many have been referred to as mighty men of God, only to come crashing down. To overcome the sinful nature, only to fall back is to be as a swine returning to wallow. To fall by pride is to follow Satan's path. This was Satan's only viable way of tempting the Son of God, who overcame even in weakened flesh.
Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction,
And a haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better to be of a humble spirit with the lowly,
Than to divide the spoil with the proud.

Matthew 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who then is greatest in the kingdom of heaven?” 2 Then Jesus called a little child to Him, set him in the midst of them, 3 and said, “Assuredly, I say to you, unless you are converted and become as little children, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Mr. M said:
Hebrews 2:
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren,
that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things
pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted,
He is able to aid those who are tempted.

I have zero interest in seminary Christology.
That is a level at which I am willing to be wrong.
The scriptures state clearly that He was able to know
all the human feelings of temptation, yet He ruled over them.
Is that not what was told to Cain?

Mr. M said:
By enduring all temptation, Jesus proved God's word to be true:

Genesis 4:
6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.
And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

My love is for God's Word, and yet you have shown no deference towards Him,
failing to address a single verse in the discussion or cite any.
I have no interest in a man's opinion.

Minister Monardo · Jun 17, 2024

Mr. M said:
Proverbs 16:18 Pride goes before destruction,
And a haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better to be of a humble spirit with the lowly,
Than to divide the spoil with the proud.

1 Timothy 3:1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of an overseer, he desires a good work. 2 An overseer then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Grip Docility · Jun 17, 2024

Mr. M said:
1 Timothy 3:1 This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of an overseer, he desires a good work. 2 An overseer then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; 3 not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; 4 one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence 5 (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?);
6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. 7 Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Colossians 2:9-10 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.

John 14:11 Believe Me that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me; or else believe Me for the very works’ sake.

Grip Docility · Jun 17, 2024

Mr. M said:
He was subject to temptation.
Hebrews 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize
with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 2:
17 Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren,
that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things
pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.
18 For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted,
He is able to aid those who are tempted.

The man Jesus Christ not only endured temptation but also the cross,
to perfect the spirit of the sons of men, that all could be glorified.

Hebrews 5:
8 though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience
by the things which He suffered.
9 And having been perfected, He became the author
of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.

What you call blasphemy, I call the grace of God that brings salvation.

Titus 2:
11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,
12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing
of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,
14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed
and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

By enduring all temptation, Jesus proved God's word to be true:

Genesis 4:
6 So the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen?
7 If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin lies at the door.
And its desire is for you, but you should rule over it.”

After remaining without sin and offering Himself as a perfect sacrifice,
He has freely given us the Holy Spirit, that we should rule over sin, without excuse.

Romans 5:17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one,
much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)

Isaiah 7:13 Isaiah said, “Listen, house of David! Is it not enough for you to try the patience of men? Will you also try the patience of my God? 14 Therefore, the Lord Himself will give you a sign: The virgin will conceive, have a son, and name him Immanuel. 15 By the time he learns to reject what is bad and choose what is good, he will be eating butter and honey.

ALL of us have been given the opportunity to sincerely Choose good and reject what is bad. Only one "man" has ever achieved it. Jesus rightly said; "Only God is Good". God and God alone has always and forever will correctly choose Good and reject what is bad. God with us, did the impossible. All things are POSSIBLE, with GOD.

Ivan Hlavanda · Jun 17, 2024

Mr. M said:
And you have written many things, without referencing the scriptures that are cited, or making scriptural references of your own that provide the basis for your statements. Let me ask you directly then, who was perfected in suffering and learned obedience, the Son of God, or the Son of man?

I asked you a question, but you keep avoiding answering. Just because you write bunch of verses, does not mean you understand them.
Let's try again, you wrote this in your OG 'The Son of God and son of man were separated by sin and had to be restored to One.' This is completely wrong.
There is nothing that separates Jesus' human nature and His divine nature, and definitely not sin, saying that would be heretical. Jesus is truly God and truly man, nothing separates these two natures.

Let's have a look at the difference between 'Son of God' and 'Son of Man'. Some say that when Jesus did refer to Himself as 'Son of Man' He referred to His human nature, and when He referred to Himself as 'Son of God' He referred to His divine nature. Both of these titles however refer to both His human and divine nature.

The title “Son of God” is given, in the first instance in Scripture, to those who manifest obedience to the Father. Sonship is defined predominately, not in biological terms here, but in terms of being in one accord or submissive towards, and so on. Remember Jesus Himself, in His discussions with the Pharisees, who claimed to be “sons of Abraham,” Jesus rebuked them and said, “You are the children of Satan. You are the children of the one whom you obey.” The “Son of God” also contains, in certain references in the New Testament, clear indications of Jesus’ eternal sonship and His deity.

The title 'Son of Man' refers back to the Old Testament vision that was written down by the prophet Daniel, where Daniel had a vision into the interior of the heavenly court of God, where he saw the Ancient of Days enthroned, and the judgment was set. And to the Ancient of Days comes “one like unto a son of man,” who then is given the authority to judge the world. So that in the first instance, the Son of Man is a heavenly person—a heavenly person who descends to this world, whose principal role in His visitation to this earth is that of the heavenly judge. And then He returns to the presence of God in His ascension. We remember that Jesus says, “No one ascends to the Father except He who has first descended from Him.” Again, we tend to think that Jesus’ calling Himself the Son of Man was an expression of humility, when in fact, it was a claim to divine authority.

Yes, Jesus did suffer, but suffering is not sin. Yes, He carried our sins on the cross, and became sin for our sake as it is written, but that does not mean He sinned, or that sin separated His human and divine nature.

Minister Monardo · Jun 17, 2024

Ivan Hlavanda said:
I asked you a question, but you keep avoiding answering. Just because you write bunch of verses, does not mean you understand them.

Because you ignored them, this calls into question your understanding as well.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The title “Son of God” is given, in the first instance in Scripture, to those who manifest obedience to the Father. Sonship is defined predominately, not in biological terms here, but in terms of being in one accord or submissive towards, and so on.

Where in the scriptures is this found. Help me out here.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Remember Jesus Himself, in His discussions with the Pharisees, who claimed to be “sons of Abraham,” Jesus rebuked them and said, “You are the children of Satan. You are the children of the one whom you obey.”

I am aware of that exchange in John 8, and don't find that particularly relevant to the Lord referring to Himself as Son of God, or Son of man. The Lord as the Son of God was with God from the beginning

Ivan Hlavanda said:
The title 'Son of Man' refers back to the Old Testament vision that was written down by the prophet Daniel, where Daniel had a vision into the interior of the heavenly court of God, where he saw the Ancient of Days enthroned, and the judgment was set. And to the Ancient of Days comes “one like unto a son of man,” who then is given the authority to judge the world.

Son of man is also used many times to refer to mankind and their progeny.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?

Job 25:6 How much less man, who is a maggot,
And a son of man, who is a worm?”

Psalm 8:3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?

Psalm 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes,
Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.

In Isaiah and Jeremiah also, but most importantly,
Ezekiel, which gives us much more understanding
than one passage of Daniel 7, although I agree it is
highly relevant to Messiah in that He said:

John 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted
the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority
to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

A second time Daniel himself is addressed as such.
Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid
and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, t
hat the vision refers to the time of the end.”

Ivan Hlavanda said:
So that in the first instance, the Son of Man is a heavenly person—a heavenly person who descends to this world, whose principal role in His visitation to this earth is that of the heavenly judge. And then He returns to the presence of God in His ascension. We remember that Jesus says, “No one ascends to the Father except He who has first descended from Him.” Again, we tend to think that Jesus’ calling Himself the Son of Man was an expression of humility, when in fact, it was a claim to divine authority.

All authority, yes.
The fact that son of man is a spirit, and not a reference to His humanity
is most evident in Ezekiel, when the spirit enters him, and for the rest of
testimony he, like Daniel is addressed as son of man.

The son of man has been sent from heaven before to aid in receiving the extensive
visions given him in Ezekiel, and how the second temple should have been built, had
Israel had been at all repentant.
I have thoroughly examined the use of son of man
to better understand the term, particularly in Jesus's self-reference, so your information
was not particularly enlightening or thorough. I have also prayerfully discussed this with
the Holy Spirit, knowing that He is to lead us into all truth. He often states what turns out
to be quite obvious.
The important point is that the son of man spirit pertains only to man. Easy-peasy.
There are many other spirits that do not pertain to man, but may influence him, if
he is not faithful to the One True God.

1 Corinthians 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth
(as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

The son of man is being reconciled in Christ, restoring all to One.
Ephesians 3:
14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

While the salvation of man is the focus of the Gospels, the Son of God
is the Lord of all creation, and this fact cannot be ignored.
Now you can ignore the reality that the son of man spirit had
to be glorified to redeem all mankind in accordance with the
promises made to Abraham, but the scriptures I quoted made it
quite clear that he had to learn obedience through suffering, (as to we,
if you believe the apostolic doctrine).
So you can say that I just quoted a lot of scriptures but don't know
what they mean, but it is truly you who lack a sound understanding.

Ivan Hlavanda said:
Yes, Jesus did suffer, but suffering is not sin. Yes, He carried our sins on the cross, and became sin for our sake as it is written, but that does not mean He sinned, or that sin separated His human and divine nature.

I never said that Jesus sinned, and that claim is erroneous as your accusations of blasphemy.
I said that the son of man spirit had to be perfected, to be glorified. Jesus is the Son of God
from the foundation of the world. He is now the ascended Christ, a glorified man, but his
humanity has been clothed with immortality by the Resurrection from the dead, and He is no
longer "fully man", for He shed His blood for our redemption.
Luke 24:
38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does
not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?”
42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.
43 And He took it and ate in their presence.

Your assumption is that there were no consequences resulting from man's sin, that the son of man
in heaven was unaffected. This cannot be true, for heaven was truly defiled by man's sin.
Hebrews 9:
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect
tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He
entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

The sons of men have been reconciled, and all creation awaits the manifestation of the Sons of God.

Grip Docility · Jun 19, 2024

Mr. M said:
Because you ignored them, this calls into question your understanding as well.

Where in the scriptures is this found. Help me out here.

I am aware of that exchange in John 8, and don't find that particularly relevant to the Lord referring to Himself as Son of God, or Son of man. The Lord as the Son of God was with God from the beginning

Son of man is also used many times to refer to mankind and their progeny.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?

Job 25:6 How much less man, who is a maggot,
And a son of man, who is a worm?”

Psalm 8:3 When I consider Your heavens, the work of Your fingers,
The moon and the stars, which You have ordained,
4 What is man that You are mindful of him,
And the son of man that You visit him?

Psalm 146:3 Do not put your trust in princes,
Nor in a son of man, in whom there is no help.

In Isaiah and Jeremiah also, but most importantly,
Ezekiel, which gives us much more understanding
than one passage of Daniel 7, although I agree it is
highly relevant to Messiah in that He said:

John 5:26 For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted
the Son to have life in Himself, 27 and has given Him authority
to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.

A second time Daniel himself is addressed as such.
Daniel 8:17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid
and fell on my face; but he said to me, “Understand, son of man, t
hat the vision refers to the time of the end.”

All authority, yes.
The fact that son of man is a spirit, and not a reference to His humanity
is most evident in Ezekiel, when the spirit enters him, and for the rest of
testimony he, like Daniel is addressed as son of man.

The son of man has been sent from heaven before to aid in receiving the extensive
visions given him in Ezekiel, and how the second temple should have been built, had
Israel had been at all repentant.
I have thoroughly examined the use of son of man
to better understand the term, particularly in Jesus's self-reference, so your information
was not particularly enlightening or thorough. I have also prayerfully discussed this with
the Holy Spirit, knowing that He is to lead us into all truth. He often states what turns out
to be quite obvious.
The important point is that the son of man spirit pertains only to man. Easy-peasy.
There are many other spirits that do not pertain to man, but may influence him, if
he is not faithful to the One True God.

1 Corinthians 8:5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth
(as there are many gods and many lords),
6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him;
and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

The son of man is being reconciled in Christ, restoring all to One.
Ephesians 3:
14 For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

While the salvation of man is the focus of the Gospels, the Son of God
is the Lord of all creation, and this fact cannot be ignored.
Now you can ignore the reality that the son of man spirit had
to be glorified to redeem all mankind in accordance with the
promises made to Abraham, but the scriptures I quoted made it
quite clear that he had to learn obedience through suffering, (as to we,
if you believe the apostolic doctrine).
So you can say that I just quoted a lot of scriptures but don't know
what they mean, but it is truly you who lack a sound understanding.

I never said that Jesus sinned, and that claim is erroneous as your accusations of blasphemy.
I said that the son of man spirit had to be perfected, to be glorified. Jesus is the Son of God
from the foundation of the world. He is now the ascended Christ, a glorified man, but his
humanity has been clothed with immortality by the Resurrection from the dead, and He is no
longer "fully man", for He shed His blood for our redemption.
Luke 24:
38 And He said to them, “Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does
not have flesh and bones as you see I have.”
40 When He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.
41 But while they still did not believe for joy, and marveled, He said to them, “Have you any food here?”
42 So they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish and some honeycomb.
43 And He took it and ate in their presence.

Your assumption is that there were no consequences resulting from man's sin, that the son of man
in heaven was unaffected. This cannot be true, for heaven was truly defiled by man's sin.
Hebrews 9:
11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect
tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He
entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

The sons of men have been reconciled, and all creation awaits the manifestation of the Sons of God.

I’m crazy to step out and say it… but Scripture reveals that God Almighty is Living, Breathing, Experience Orientated, Forever Searching and Seeking the very hearts of Men that He created, Inquisitive, Interactive, Relational…

I think that this scares some folks! Not only is Our One True God utterly NOT a stone idol, but He is the Author/Originator of the most Complex Force in all of Existence… LOVE!

We will Search Him out for an eternity and clearly, even then, we won’t even understand the very tip of the Metaphorical Iceberg!

Ivan Hlavanda · Jun 19, 2024

Mr. M said:
Because you ignored them, this calls into question your understanding as well.

And you are doing it again. You wrote in your OP that 'The Son of God and son of man were separated by sin and had to be restored to One.' which is completely false, and when I challenged you, you posted bunch of verses which did not answer anything. Christ's divine and human nature are inseparable, but you wrote that they were which is completely wrong, they were not separated, and definitely not separated by sin.

Here is the definition of Christ being truly God, truly man by the council of Chalcedon, and I hope this will help you to understand it:

Following, then, the holy fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us one and the same Son, the self-same perfect in Godhead, the self-same perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man; the self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the self-same co-essential with us according to the manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the self-same, for us and for our salvation born of Mary the Virgin theotokos as to the manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only-begotten; acknowledged in two natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the two natures being in no way removed because of the union, but rather the properties of each nature being preserved, and both concurring into one person and one hypostasis; not as though He was parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son and only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and as the symbol of the fathers has handed down to us.

Mr. M said:
The son of man has been sent from heaven before to aid in receiving the extensive
visions given him in Ezekiel, and how the second temple should have been built, had
Israel had been at all repentant.
I have thoroughly examined the use of son of man
to better understand the term, particularly in Jesus's self-reference, so your information
was not particularly enlightening or thorough. I have also prayerfully discussed this with
the Holy Spirit, knowing that He is to lead us into all truth. He often states what turns out
to be quite obvious.
The important point is that the son of man spirit pertains only to man. Easy-peasy.
There are many other spirits that do not pertain to man, but may influence him, if
he is not faithful to the One True God.

The son of man in Daniel and son of man in Ezekiel has a different meaning.

The claim Son of God according to Jews at that time was not anything divine. Adam was called the Son of God, Solomon was called the Son of God. In the Psalms it says you are Gods. It's not a divine claim to call someone a Son of God, but when someone refers to that son of man coming on the clouds of heaven who's going to receive glory, authority and sovereign power, and people of every nation and language are going to worship Him, with the worship due only to God that son of man is more than just a human He is divine. He's going to be worshiped by all people of all time. Lots of Christians say oh son of man means He's human and Son of God means He's God. No it's the other way around. In the Jewish context Son of God was a normal human title son of man from Daniel 7 that was something Divine.

Further, only in the gospels do we find the term son of man associated with the definite article, the. Jesus always called Himself “the Son of Man,” as in the only one there is. In using the definite article, Jesus contrasts Himself with other personalities in the Bible associated with the same term. Ezekiel is never called “the son of man”; he is always just a “son of man,” as in one among many.
Son of man is a rather common term in the Bible, and it simply means “man.” It emphasizes the humanity of a person.

I think I said enough about this topic now.

Grip Docility · Jun 19, 2024

Ivan Hlavanda said:
And you are doing it again. You wrote in your OP that 'The Son of God and son of man were separated by sin and had to be restored to One.' which is completely false, and when I challenged you, you posted bunch of verses which did not answer anything. Christ's divine and human nature are inseparable, but you wrote that they were which is completely wrong, they were not separated, and definitely not separated by sin.

Here is the definition of Christ being truly God, truly man by the council of Chalcedon, and I hope this will help you to understand it:

Following, then, the holy fathers, we all unanimously teach that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us one and the same Son, the self-same perfect in Godhead, the self-same perfect in manhood; truly God and truly man; the self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the self-same co-essential with us according to the manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the self-same, for us and for our salvation born of Mary the Virgin theotokos as to the manhood; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only-begotten; acknowledged in two natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the two natures being in no way removed because of the union, but rather the properties of each nature being preserved, and both concurring into one person and one hypostasis; not as though He was parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son and only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and as the symbol of the fathers has handed down to us.

The son of man in Daniel and son of man in Ezekiel has a different meaning.

The claim Son of God according to Jews at that time was not anything divine. Adam was called the Son of God, Solomon was called the Son of God. In the Psalms it says you are Gods. It's not a divine claim to call someone a Son of God, but when someone refers to that son of man coming on the clouds of heaven who's going to receive glory, authority and sovereign power, and people of every nation and language are going to worship Him, with the worship due only to God that son of man is more than just a human He is divine. He's going to be worshiped by all people of all time. Lots of Christians say oh son of man means He's human and Son of God means He's God. No it's the other way around. In the Jewish context Son of God was a normal human title son of man from Daniel 7 that was something Divine.

Further, only in the gospels do we find the term son of man associated with the definite article, the. Jesus always called Himself “the Son of Man,” as in the only one there is. In using the definite article, Jesus contrasts Himself with other personalities in the Bible associated with the same term. Ezekiel is never called “the son of man”; he is always just a “son of man,” as in one among many.
Son of man is a rather common term in the Bible, and it simply means “man.” It emphasizes the humanity of a person.

I think I said enough about this topic now.

You do realize that your entire argument against Mr. M is under his own Heading of his OP that contains the word Immanuel, which means GOD With us?

Ephesians 2:14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.
19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household,

He who knew no sin cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

@Mr. M hasn’t denied once that Jesus was 100% God among us. He hasn’t once said a word of the sort. What He has specified, without using mystical manmade theological terms is exactly what the book of Hebrews states.

Mr. M is essentially pointing out that God with us didn’t cheat His way to victory. I would even wager to say that both Mr. M and I fully reject the doctrine of “The subordination of the Son”.

Fully Man Jesus (YHWH is our Salvation) not only wrestled with ACTUAL Temptation, but the temptation of ripping Satan and His attackers in half with one single thought! Satan challenged Jesus to throw Himself off the Peak to “Be rescued by Angels”.

That’s a Big LOL, because that fully Man Jesus could have physically overcome Satan that very moment with the very POWER that Forged our universe! But, per Hebrews, Jesus willingly humbled HIMSELF to be as LOW as Mankind! He experienced temptation far beyond anything we experience and if He would have used RAW Spiritually PHYSICAL, Divine Power to defeat Satan, HE would have failed! He could have failed! He risked it ALL! He genuinely played by HIS Rules with a set of dice that Weren’t loaded! This isn’t blasphemy! It demonstrates that God alone has the Grit to do what must be done!

The Father only exalted the Son, once the Son successfully demonstrated HUMILITY beyond comprehension!

The Divine Humbled Himself beneath all bars of Earthly Comprehension!

Satan… AKA The god of Death (lower case “g”) was God’s Judas in Heaven! He tried to Overthrow the Father in Heaven through deceit and the holding of Ransom of God’s Cherished Creation! Instead of outgunning Satan, WHICH God could have, HE left HIS Glory in Heaven, just as Mr. M stated (Which is another way of saying that THE Son left His Father to be JOINED with His Bride) and was Spiritually made one with humanity, via a bloodline that He Himself had meticulously tended, human after human… all the way to MARY… AS the GOOD Gardner! How did God Beat Satan?!? The very Author of the concept of POWER beyond comprehension humbled Himself… EVEN before HIS Enemy, “The one Who He Himself had given THE POWER of Death”.

Judas was literally possessed by Satan and Jesus willingly surrendered to the Wickedly contrived plan Satan had hatched by willingly handing HIMSELF over to Judas (aka mr. Possessed by God’s Adversary). Jesus Humbled Himself unto Death for our sakes!

God defeated Satan who valued and LUSTED after limitless power with LIMITLESS, Incomprehensibly Perfect HUMILITY!

Satan expected Swords and Wars! Jesus became the first LAMB to the slaughter. Satan demanded that mankind sacrifice Babies unto him. Jesus became our WILLING Saccrifice!

The entire Gospel is founded on this very Truth!

Was Immanuel Fully God and Fully Man?

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