• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Christian lifeguard sues LA County Fire Department over LGBT pride flag mandate

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,705
25
WI
✟644,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Guys and gals, this is a heavy one. As a Christian, and as a citizen who respects the Constitution, folks should have freedom of speech, therefore, freedom of religion, as long as it does not harm anyone. This lifeguard, Mr. Jeffrey Little refused to fly the gay pride flag because of his Christian faith, and was sadly harassed by others on and off his site of employment.

Life anecdote (feel free to skip): For myself, as a Christian bi guy (who will always remain single and celibate, unless married to a woman, as celibacy is the equivalent of wearing a seatbelt in a car or mask to protect others during pandemics), this pride stuff is kinda messed up. We are supposed to live humbly as Christians, and as a society in general. In fact, my parents and I do not pledge allegiance* to the flag of the US or any other nation either, as that is idolatry (Exodus verse) of the nth degree. So yes, this pride flag stuff should not be shoved down the throats of everybody.

*Matthew 5:34 (NIV): "But I tell you, do not swear an oath at all: either by heaven, for it is God's throne."



Article summary (<20% of article length, for fair usage reasons, summarized by Mistral 7B AI):

A Christian lifeguard named Jeffrey Little, who has served Los Angeles County for 22 years, is suing the Los Angeles County Fire Department (LACoFD) for religious discrimination. He refused to fly the LGBT Progress Pride flag at his lifeguard facility in Pacific Palisades during last summer due to his traditional Christian beliefs regarding same-sex activity, the immutability of sex, and the belief that all people are children of God. After requesting a religious accommodation, the LACoFD granted and then rescinded it. Subsequently, Little was subjected to retaliation, harassment, and his personal information was leaked, resulting in a death threat against him and his family. The lawsuit alleges violations of his First Amendment and federal and state laws. The LACoFD declined to comment on the case. Little's attorneys hope this case will set a precedent for other Christians with similar objections.
 
Last edited:

Foamhead

I like water
Aug 27, 2005
779
746
47
✟60,505.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-Others
He is free to have his Christian beliefs. He does not get to decide what flags are to be flown at his job. That is to to his employer.
I don't see the harm in an accommodation. I couldn't care less either way if people fly pride flags, and it's not worth making trouble over.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: AlexB23
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,705
25
WI
✟644,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
He is free to have his Christian beliefs. He does not get to decide what flags are to be flown at his job. That is to to his employer.
Well, he operates (does not own) the facility, so it should be up to him to choose to fly a flag or not. Not flying a flag is also freedom of speech. Yes, we must respect diversity at work, and as Christians, but we do not need to bow to the pressures of flying flags. This stuff belongs in the bedroom, my friend. A religious accommodation by his employer to not fly the flag should have been given to Mr. Little.
 
Upvote 0

Belk

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2005
30,728
15,191
Seattle
✟1,181,900.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
Well, he operates (does not own) the facility, so it should be up to him to choose to fly a flag or not.
That would be up to his employer on if he has that discretion.
Not flying a flag is also freedom of speech.

He is free to use his freedom of speech as a private citizen. Not as a government employee.
Yes, we must respect diversity at work, and as Christians, but we do not need to bow to the pressures of flying flags. This stuff belongs in the bedroom, my friend. A religious accommodation by his employer to not fly the flag should have been given to Mr. Little.
I disagree. I could see a reasonable accommodation being another employee putting the flag up but not flying it does not strike me as an accommodation but capitulation.
 
Upvote 0

Belk

Senior Member
Site Supporter
Dec 21, 2005
30,728
15,191
Seattle
✟1,181,900.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Married
I don't see the harm in an accommodation. I couldn't care less either way if people fly pride flags, and it's not worth making trouble over.
As I said in the other post, I think someone else putting it up is reasonable.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: AlexB23
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,705
25
WI
✟644,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That would be up to his employer on if he has that discretion.


He is free to use his freedom of speech as a private citizen. Not as a government employee.

I disagree. I could see a reasonable accommodation being another employee putting the flag up but not flying it does not strike me as an accommodation but capitulation.
Well, we can see what other folks here when we get some Christian perspectives here also. Yes, another employee could fly the flag, which would be an okay compromise, so we both agree there. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: Belk
Upvote 0

The IbanezerScrooge

I can't believe what I'm hearing...
Sep 1, 2015
3,458
5,855
51
Florida
✟310,393.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Here are my thoughts:

1. I disagree with the county (or any other governmental institution) flying any non-governmental representative flag (the pride flag in this case, but would include pretty much any other flag that's not the country, county, state or institutional flag) on government owned buildings. This is a matter of principle in my view. Any act that could be construed as biased in favor of or against any group shouldn't be officially sanctioned, much less mandated by a governmental institution. This would also include Ten Commandment plaques and the like. I would vote NO on any initiative to require or allow such a thing if I was given opportunity to do so.

2. I don't think this guy has standing to object on the grounds he's using. Him being a Christian, even the most devout, in my view, has nothing to do with what the county policy says he should do with county owned facilities. It's not his house or his property. Perhaps the county could have chosen to accommodate him by having another employee hoist the flag on that station so he didn't have to participate in the act, but ultimately I don't think they should have been required to. Part of his job is hoisting flags on his station. Doing so does not inherently mean he must support whatever those flags represent. I think the first amendment argument is invalid. I don't think it was violated. Maybe harassment? He might have something there if he has receipts and can show official retaliation of some kind.
 
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Larniavc sir, how are you so smart?"
Jul 14, 2015
14,924
9,121
52
✟389,683.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
This lifeguard, Mr. Jeffrey Little refused to fly the gay pride flag because of his Christian faith, and was sadly harassed by others on and off his site of employment.
So he was happy to ignore part of his Christian faith that directs him to kill gay men but not the bit about the flags (which is curiously not even in the Bible). Ultimately if he puts his faith over legitimate requests from his superior at work that's on him.
 
  • Wow
Reactions: Vambram
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,705
25
WI
✟644,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
So he was happy to ignore part of his Christian faith that directs him to kill gay men but not the bit about the flags (which is curiously not even in the Bible). Ultimately if he puts his faith over legitimate requests from his superior at work that's on him.
Bible says we should not kill.

Exodus 20:13 says "Thou shall not kill"
 
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,705
25
WI
✟644,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Here are my thoughts:

1. I disagree with the county (or any other governmental institution) flying any non-governmental representative flag (the pride flag in this case, but would include pretty much any other flag that's not the country, county, state or institutional flag) on government owned buildings. This is a matter of principle in my view. Any act that could be construed as biased in favor of or against any group shouldn't be officially sanctioned, much less mandated by a governmental institution. This would also include Ten Commandment plaques and the like. I would vote NO on any initiative to require or allow such a thing if I was given opportunity to do so.

2. I don't think this guy has standing to object on the grounds he's using. Him being a Christian, even the most devout, in my view, has nothing to do with what the county policy says he should do with county owned facilities. It's not his house or his property. Perhaps the county could have chosen to accommodate him by having another employee hoist the flag on that station so he didn't have to participate in the act, but ultimately I don't think they should have been required to. Part of his job is hoisting flags on his station. Doing so does not inherently mean he must support whatever those flags represent. I think the first amendment argument is invalid. I don't think it was violated. Maybe harassment? He might have something there if he has receipts and can show official retaliation of some kind.
I agree 100% with your first point, and with the bolded part in the second point, so we agree a little over 50%, probably 2/3. And yes, it would have been great if Mr. Little showed evidence, or receipts of his harassment claim. :) So, yes, we are getting somewhere. If I was him, I would make one of my fellow employees raise the flag as well, as the flag does not align with my beliefs.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Fact-Based Lifeform
Oct 17, 2011
42,949
46,052
Los Angeles Area
✟1,022,166.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
While some parts of his complaint are possibly valid, my understanding is that part of it involved that he objected to having to work near flags that had been hoisted by others. And indeed, he took them down.

Lifeguard who took down Pride flags at beach sues L.A. County over religious discrimination

A longtime Los Angeles County lifeguard stationed in Pacific Palisades near a stretch beloved by gay beachgoers is suing the county for requiring him to work feet away from a Pride flag last summer and punishing him for taking three of the flags down.

In a show of support for LBGTQ+ constituents, officials with both the city of Los Angeles and L.A. County have recently pushed to raise the Pride flag at government buildings. Last year, the county board of supervisors voted to require that many government buildings fly the Progress Pride flag throughout Pride month.

That included the lifeguard facilities where Little worked at Will Rogers Beach, which is home to a historically LGBTQ+ friendly section known as Ginger Rogers Beach.

At Little’s request, his bosses initially agreed to give him a religious accommodation and change his shift so he could work at a site that didn’t have a flag, the lawsuit said.

When he arrived at Dockweiler Beach on June 21 — one of the sites he alleged was supposed to be flagless — Little said he found the Pride flag hoisted at three nearby facilities, according to a complaint he filed with the county. He was informed that a chief had dropped off the flags and ordered they be flown, which Little alleged was a form of religious discrimination.

[If a supervisor literally brought flags just to spite Little, there might be a legitimate complaint there. If not, then per the OP article, it sounds like they were accommodating him according to his wishes: "Just have someone else raise the flag."]

He took down all three flags, according to the suit.
 
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,705
25
WI
✟644,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
While some parts of his complaint are possibly valid, my understanding is that part of it involved that he objected to having to work near flags that had been hoisted by others. And indeed, he took them down.

Lifeguard who took down Pride flags at beach sues L.A. County over religious discrimination

A longtime Los Angeles County lifeguard stationed in Pacific Palisades near a stretch beloved by gay beachgoers is suing the county for requiring him to work feet away from a Pride flag last summer and punishing him for taking three of the flags down.

In a show of support for LBGTQ+ constituents, officials with both the city of Los Angeles and L.A. County have recently pushed to raise the Pride flag at government buildings. Last year, the county board of supervisors voted to require that many government buildings fly the Progress Pride flag throughout Pride month.

That included the lifeguard facilities where Little worked at Will Rogers Beach, which is home to a historically LGBTQ+ friendly section known as Ginger Rogers Beach.

At Little’s request, his bosses initially agreed to give him a religious accommodation and change his shift so he could work at a site that didn’t have a flag, the lawsuit said.

When he arrived at Dockweiler Beach on June 21 — one of the sites he alleged was supposed to be flagless — Little said he found the Pride flag hoisted at three nearby facilities, according to a complaint he filed with the county. He was informed that a chief had dropped off the flags and ordered they be flown, which Little alleged was a form of religious discrimination.

[If a supervisor literally brought flags just to spite Little, there might be a legitimate complaint there. If not, then per the OP article, it sounds like they were accommodating him according to his wishes: "Just have someone else raise the flag."]

He took down all three flags, according to the suit.
Hey, thanks for the information. Mr. Little should not have taken the other three flags down, as he did not hoist the other flags. So, it seems that Mr. Little is partly in the wrong here. :) The world may never know if a supervisor brought in more flags to spite Mr. Little.
 
Upvote 0

2PhiloVoid

Feel'n the Burn of Philosophy!
Site Supporter
Oct 28, 2006
24,953
11,693
Space Mountain!
✟1,379,018.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That is referring to murder. Killing is often called for by God.

Not for Christians, it's not. So, let's drop this pseudo-point you're making about how "part of" [THE] Christian faith is to kill gay people.

We all know this ain't the case.
 
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,705
25
WI
✟644,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What's a pride flag? Is that what they call that rainbow flag now?
Good question. Yes, the pride flag is apparently a modified rainbow flag, which includes gender transformer colors (pink and blue)

Pride Progress Flag (2018 redesign)
1717274867518.png


Original Pride flag (1978 design)
1717274976190.png
 
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
26,426
21,531
Flatland
✟1,099,389.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Larniavc

"Larniavc sir, how are you so smart?"
Jul 14, 2015
14,924
9,121
52
✟389,683.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
UK-Liberal-Democrats
That is referring to murder.

Not for Christians, it's not. So, let's drop this pseudo-point you're making about how "part of" [THE] Christian faith is to kill gay people.

We all know this ain't the case.
Maybe not now with a more modern take on which parts of the Bible are important but back in the day the Bible clearly says God set people to killing; even the little ones.

My point here is (clearly) that this lifeguard is picking and choosing which parts of the Bible he will risk his job for.
 
Upvote 0

AlexB23

Christian
CF Ambassadors
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2023
11,387
7,705
25
WI
✟644,798.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
What a bizarre thing to be proud of...
I agree. We are taught to humble oneself.

If people can be proud of having an LGBT flag, then I should be proud of having an LG TV (well, technically a monitor with built-in speakers connected to a Roku stick and DVD player). We should hang the LG logo across government buildings.

LG43UN700T-B
1717275432486.jpeg
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Chesterton
Upvote 0