VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

keras · May 23, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
When Jesus died, and when that thief died, they both went to paradise. Paradise is real, because Jesus said so.

You don't care that this belief contradicts many other scriptures?
No, of course you don't. as it suits your false beliefs.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Your theory of the seals being open is destroyed.

In no way have you provided a viable argument. Your assertions are childish and shallow.
What actually has happened, is the proof of the first 5 Seals being opened in the first Century.

Jeffrey Bowden · May 23, 2024

keras said:
You don't care that this belief contradicts many other scriptures?
No, of course you don't. as it suits your false beliefs.

In no way have you provided a viable argument. Your assertions are childish and shallow.
What actually has happened, is the proof of the first 5 Seals being opened in the first Century.

You are now accusing Jesus of Paradise being false.

The best argument against the first five seals not having been opened is they start the Trib and the first year of it. The Trib is seven CONSECUTIVE years-long. The two halves you mention are only divided by the midpoint — the abomination of the holy temple. That’s when the first half ends and the second half begins.

The “midpoint” isn’t the exact midpoint, time-wise. it’s just a super-significant shift in the whole scheme of things: the GT starts and Jerusalem is overrun by hardcore unbelievers (adherents to the AC). Etc.

keras · May 23, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You are now accusing Jesus of Paradise being false.

Jesus does not contradict Himself.
After His death, He went not to some fabulous 'paradise', but to preach to the imprisoned spirits. 1 Peter 3:19

The thief who Jesus promised 'paradise', was saved on that day, but like everyone else = he has to wait for the Great White Throne Judgment to obtain Eternal life. Paradise, as described in Revelation 21 to 22

Jeffrey Bowden said:
The best argument against the first five seals not having been opened is they start the Trib and the first year of it. The Trib is seven CONSECUTIVE years-long. The two halves you mention are only divided by the midpoint — the abomination of the holy temple. That’s when the first half ends and the second half begins.

The “midpoint” isn’t the exact midpoint, time-wise. it’s just a super-significant shift in the whole scheme of things: the GT starts and Jerusalem is overrun by hardcore unbelievers (adherents to the AC). Etc.

The more you spout weird opinions, the more your credibility sinks.
There aren't many who believe the GT is 7 years. Revelation makes it clear that Gods wrath falls on those who take the 'mark of the beast'. Which will happen during the final 42 months. Revelation 13

Jeffrey Bowden · May 24, 2024

keras said:
Jesus does not contradict Himself.
After His death, He went not to some fabulous 'paradise', but to preach to the imprisoned spirits. 1 Peter 3:19

The thief who Jesus promised 'paradise', was saved on that day, but like everyone else = he has to wail for the Great White Throne Judgment to obtain Eternal life. Paradise, as described in Revelation 21 to 22

The more you spout weird opinions, the more your credibility sinks.
There aren't many who believe the GT is 7 years. Revelation makes it clear that Gods wrath falls on those who take the 'mark of the beast'. Which will happen during the final 42 months. Revelation 13

You haven’t studied enough about the GWTJ. It is a judgement only for those who died in sin. It’s “all” is only about all “the dead,” not “the dead in Christ.”

Rev 20:4-5 offers a good example of “the dead in Christ” and “the dead” mentioned in two sentences.

Rev 20:4 (NIV): … They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 (NIV): (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)

Verse 4 is about the “dead in Christ.” Verse 5 is about “the dead.” The context means “all the dead who died in sin.” That’s why they only come to life a thousand years later, at the GWTJ. That is exclusively their judgement.

The “dead in Christ” are only resurrected in 1 Th 4:16. They and all living lbelievers are transformed into their glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:52). All together, we are raptured into clouds and meet Jesus. Per John 14:2-3, we go to Heaven.

Our judgment is only at the Judgment seat of Christ in 2 Cor 5:10 (NKJV): For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

There’s that word “all,” again. The context firm “Our” is a reference to believers, only.

Matt 25:32 judges the elect and all living Jewish believers) and all who are living and have rejected Jesus.

The validity of the pre-Trib rapture is in Acts 1:11 only aligning with Th 4:16-17. The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event and the next return of Jesus Christ.

keras said:
You don't care that this belief contradicts many other scriptures?
No, of course you don't. as it suits your false beliefs.

In no way have you provided a viable argument. Your assertions are childish and shallow.
What actually has happened, is the proof of the first 5 Seals being opened in the first Century.

You generalize. You make sweeping claims with no proof. You don’t refute anything. You hit and run with unproven claims.

1 Th 4:14 (KJV): For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Those who “sleep in Jesus” are brought out of Paradise.

keras · May 24, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You haven’t studied enough about the GWTJ. It is a judgement only for those who died in sin. It’s “all” is only about all “the dead,” not “the dead in Christ.”

Just a plain reading of Rev 20:13,....everyone was Judged according to their deeds. reveals your errors.
Your mistaken beliefs and wild opinions are totally unbiblical.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
The validity of the pre-Trib rapture is in Acts 1:11 only aligning with Th 4:16-17. The pre-Trib rapture is the next prophesied event and the next return of Jesus Christ.

This fanciful and rather desperate statement, shows your hopeless lack of any real proof of a rapture to heaven.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Those who “sleep in Jesus” are brought out of Paradise.

The next conscious moment for every dead person, is to be standing before God in Judgment.
Those whose name is found in the Book of Life, will go into Eternity with Jesus and God. THAT will be Paradise.

Jeffrey Bowden · May 24, 2024

keras said:
Just a plain reading of Rev 20:13,....everyone was Judged according to their deeds. reveals your errors.
Your mistaken beliefs and wild opinions are totally unbiblical.

This fanciful and rather desperate statement, shows your hopeless lack of any real proof of a rapture to heaven.

The next conscious moment for every dead person, is to be standing before God in Judgment.
Those whose name is found in the Book of Life, will go into Eternity with Jesus and God. THAT will be Paradise.

Here are key parts of Rev 20:4-5 (ESV): … They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

In verse 4, the GM is resurrected and will reign with Jesus in the MK. Those martyrs entered the Trib as unbelievers. They saw the errors of their ways, and they turned to Jesus for forgiveness. Jesus then set them on a course for martyrdom. They all died “in Christ,” and, of the dead, only they were resurrected.

In verse 5, “the rest of the dead” are dead unbelievers who died in sin. They are to be resurrected only for the GWTJ. If they were saints (as are the martyrs in verse 4), they would be resurrected with those saints. Instead, they are simply referred to as “the rest of the dead.” That’s another demeaning phrase much like “those who dwell on the earth.”

Why are only those dead treated with such disrespect and made to wait for a thousand years? Their resurrection is only for the GWTJ, because they are all the dead who died in sin.

Rev 20:12-15 (ESV): 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. ——- Do you recognize the disrespectful tone there is to the words “the dead, great and small?” They all died in sin. Only they are judged at the GWTJ.

13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, —— more disrespectful words about other dead who died in sin.

Vers 13 continues: Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. ——-Who goes to Hades after they die? Those who die in sin. The rich man in Luke 16:23 died in sin and was sent directly to Hades.

All who die in Christ go first to Paradise. How do so l know that? Jesus said so in Luke 23:43 (ESV): And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Jesus and that thief died that same day. They both went directly to Paradise. How do I know that? Jesus said so. Is Jesus wrong?

Later, the dead in Christ are raised upon the last trump mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52. That trumpet sound occurs only in 1 Th 4:16. The last trump triggers the transformation into glorified bodies, first for the raised dead in Christ, then for we who are left. Together, we are raptured in 1 Th 4:17 into heavenly clouds, to meet Jesus in the air.

John 14:2-3 (ESV): In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Jesus said He is preparing a place for each of us to live in, “In my Father’s house.” Did Jesus say, “in the new Heaven?” No. He’s referring to the Heaven of today.

The Trib is seven years long. The seals have not been opened.

Acts 1:11 can only be fulfilled by 1 Th 4:16-17 (rapture verses) along with 1 Cor 15:52. Therefore, the pre-Trib rapture is prophesied as the reason for Jesus’ next return.

The verse below proves that no believers will enter the Trib.

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

keras · May 24, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Here are key parts of Rev 20:4-5 (ESV): … They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.

In verse 4, the GM is resurrected and will reign with Jesus in the MK. Those martyrs entered the Trib as unbelievers. They saw the errors of their ways, and they turned to Jesus for forgiveness. Jesus then set them on a course for martyrdom. They all died “in Christ,” and, of the dead, only they were resurrected.

In verse 5, “the rest of the dead” are dead unbelievers who died in sin. They are to be resurrected only for the GWTJ. If they were saints (as are the martyrs in verse 4), they would be resurrected with those saints. Instead, they are simply referred to as “the rest of the dead.” That’s another demeaning phrase much like “those who dwell on the earth.”

Why are only those dead treated with such disrespect and made to wait for a thousand years? Their resurrection is only for the GWTJ, because they are all the dead who died in sin.

Rev 20:12-15 (ESV): 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. ——- Do you recognize the disrespectful tone there is to the words “the dead, great and small?” They all died in sin. Only they are judged at the GWTJ.

13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, —— more disrespectful words about other dead who died in sin.

Vers 13 continues: Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. ——-Who goes to Hades after they die? Those who die in sin. The rich man in Luke 16:23 died in sin and was sent directly to Hades.

All who die in Christ go first to Paradise. How do so l know that? Jesus said so in Luke 23:43 (ESV): And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Jesus and that thief died that same day. They both went directly to Paradise. How do I know that? Jesus said so. Is Jesus wrong?

Later, the dead in Christ are raised upon the last trump mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52. That trumpet sound occurs only in 1 Th 4:16. The last trump triggers the transformation into glorified bodies, first for the raised dead in Christ, then for we who are left. Together, we are raptured in 1 Th 4:17 into heavenly clouds, to meet Jesus in the air.

John 14:2-3 (ESV): In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Jesus said He is preparing a place for each of us to live in, “In my Father’s house.” Did Jesus say, “in the new Heaven?” No. He’s referring to the Heaven of today.

The Trib is seven years long. The seals have not been opened.

Acts 1:11 can only be fulfilled by 1 Th 4:16-17 (rapture verses) along with 1 Cor 15:52. Therefore, the pre-Trib rapture is prophesied as the reason for Jesus’ next return.

The verse below proves that no believers will enter the Trib.

Rev 6:10 (ESV): They cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?”

Another load of speculation and guesswork.
Revelation 20:4 refers solely to those killed during the reign of the 'beast'.
The Great Tribulation lasts for 3 1/2 years and the Seals 1 to 5 must be open, as all the souls of the Christian martyrs are kept under the Altar in heaven.
That believers will enter the GT, is proved by Revelation 12:17

This is my 182 post on this thread.
I fully realize that I cannot change your mind; as believers in false doctrines are locked into them, Isaiah 29:9-12, and I don't expect any support from others here, but the Truth has now been presented to you.
Why don't other rapture believers support you?

I see no point in your constant repetition of what you want God to do. Judgment will come and those who promoted and taught falsehoods will be more severely judged.

Oseas · May 24, 2024

GOD will not revoke his wrath, under Him the proud helpers bow,do stoop under Him. Job 9:13

Revelation 11:18 -
18 And the nations were (WILL BE) angry(wrathed), and thy WRATH is come (GOD's WRATH), and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest DESTROY them which destroy the earth.

Get ready

Romans 2:14-16 and 12 and 5-11
14 For when the Gentiles, which HAVE NOT THE LAW, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, HAVING NOT THE LAW, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.
16 In the Day (this Day arrived, the seventh and last Day or seventh and last millennium) when GOD shall Judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ (the Judgment Seat of Christ) according to my gospel.
Get ready

12 For as many as have sinned WITHOUT LAW (the Gentiles)shall also PERISH WITHOUT LAW:and as many as have sinned in the LAW(THE JEWS) shall be JUDGED by the LAW;

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself WRATH against the Day of WRATH and revelation of the righteous Judgment of GOD;(This Day arrived, the seventh and last Day)
6 Who will render to EVERY MAN according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, ETERNAL LIFE:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the Truth, but obey unrighteousness, INDIGNATION AND WRATH,
(What is written in the verses 7 and 8 above will be LITERALLY fulfilled from now on. The Word is GOD, GOD HIMSELF, self-executing, understand?)

9TRIBULATION and ANGUISH, upon EVERY SOUL of man that doeth evil, of the JEW first,and also of the GENTILE;
(Isaiah 26:20-21->20 Come,my people,enter thou into thy chambers,and shut thy doors about thee: HIDE THYSELF as it were for a little moment (the last week-week 70th-Daniel 9:27), until the INDIGNATION be overpast. 21 For, behold, the LORD cometh out of His place to PUNISH the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity(Matthew 24:10-13): the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain)

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the JEW first, and also to the GENTILE;
11For there is no respect of persons with GOD.
Get ready

The Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing.

Oseas · May 25, 2024

Let us prepare to enter and face the final environment of the last week of the Devil's world, whose satanic and distincts events will happen in two distinct halves of the last week.

The FIRST half of the last week will be ruled by the MAN Beast of sea, whose ROOTS is described in Revelation 13:2, a religious and satanic MONSTER having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy-Revelation 13:1-10.

In the 2nd half, the ruler will be the MAN Beast of the earth, the dragon-Revelation 13:11-18, more powerful than the first MAN Beast which will be wounded to death by a Sword from now on-Revelation 13:14-, but his deadly wound will be healed, the Dragon will give him his Power, and his Throne in Jerusalem, and great Authority, and they-THE WORLD-will worshipp the FALSE MESSIAH, the dragon, the son of perdition, the man OF SIN, which will give power and his Throne unto the MAN Beast of sea: and they will worshipp the Beast, saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make WAR with him? (Michael is, he comes FIRST to cast the Devil into the bottomless pit, JESUS comes after Michael).

The Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand?
Get ready

Jeffrey Bowden · May 25, 2024

keras said:
Another load of speculation and guesswork.
Revelation 20:4 refers solely to those killed during the reign of the 'beast'.
The Great Tribulation lasts for 3 1/2 years and the Seals 1 to 5 must be open, as all the souls of the Christian martyrs are kept under the Altar in heaven.
That believers will enter the GT, is proved by Revelation 12:17

This is my 182 post on this thread.
I fully realize that I cannot change your mind; as believers in false doctrines are locked into them, Isaiah 29:9-12, and I don't expect any support from others here, but the Truth has now been presented to you.
Why don't other rapture believers support you?

I see no point in your constant repetition of what you want God to do. Judgment will come and those who promoted and taught falsehoods will be more severely judged.

Luke 23:43 (ESV): And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

Jesus told the newly saved thief that when he dies, he will go straight to paradise. You claim all dead believers go under the altar. Who’s right between you two?

Only the martyrs from the Trib are found under the altar: Rev 6:9 and Rev 20:4.

The saints in Rev 12:17 are new converts in the Trib who are killed for their testimony of Jesus Christ. Hence, they become the martyrs in Rev 20:4. They are the second group of the GM. You ignore Rev 6:11 which proves there are two groups of martyrs that make up the GM. You ignore Rev 6:11 because it proves you wrong about seals 1 - 5 already being open.

You keep saying seals 1 - 5 are open. You are making that up. Seal 4 kills 25% of the population in a very short time frame. A large percentage are killed by wild beasts. If just that has occurred, there would be historical records of it. Show me one. These aren’t natural deaths. Prove this specific anomaly has already occurred.

Where’s the mention of “AD1” in Matt 24:4-15? Where’s the big gap in time in those verses?

You say the pre-Trib rapture is a false doctrine. It’s been proven that “those who dwell on the earth” (Rev 3:10; Rev 6:10; Rev 11:10; Rev 17:2) are unbelievers. Therefore, in Rev 3:10, there are two groups: “You” (we believers) is kept from the “hour of trial;” and “those” are subjected to the hour of trial that will come over all the earth.

The “hour of trial” engulfs the whole earth. There is no place on earth where Rev 3:10 puts “you.” Where would Jesus take us to? John 14:3 is about our being raptured to Heaven (my Father’s house). There’s just one rapture of all believers (1 Th 4:16-17). Therefore, those verses work together with John 14:3 because it is speaking about 1 Th 4:17.

Acts 1:9-11 detail the strict requirements for Jesus’ next return. Only 1 Th 4:16-17, along with 1 Cor 15:52 align with Acts 1:11. Therefore, the pre-Trib rapture is prophesied as the next return of Jesus Christ.

Show me where Daniel’s 70th week is defined as beginning from AD1.

I have proof of everything above; you can’t disprove a thing.

Oseas · May 25, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
You keep saying seals 1 - 5 are open. You are making that up. Seal 4 kills 25% of the population in a very short time frame. A large percentage are killed by wild beasts. If just that has occurred, there would be historical records of it. Show me one. These aren’t natural deaths. Prove this specific anomaly has already occurred.

Where’s the mention of “AD1” in Matt 24:4-15? Where’s the big gap in time in those verses?

You say the pre-Trib rapture is a false doctrine. It’s been proven that “those who dwell on the earth” (Rev 3:10; Rev 6:10; Rev 11:10; Rev 17:2) are unbelievers. Therefore, in Rev 3:10, there are two groups: “You” (we believers) is kept from the “hour of trial;” and “those” are subjected to the hour of trial thst will come over all the earth.

The “hour of trial” engulfs the whole earth. There is no place on earth where Rev 3:10 puts “you.” Where would Jesus take us to? John 14:3 is about our being raptured to Heaven (my Father’s house). There’s just one rapture of all believers (1 Th 4:16-17). Therefore, those verses work together with John 14:3 because it is speaking about 1 Th 4:17.

Acts 1:9-11 detail the strict requirements for Jesus’ next return. Only 1 Th 4:16-17, along with 1 Cor 15:52 align with Acts 1:11. Therefore, the pre-Trib rapture is prophesied as the next return of Jesus Christ.

It is also true that in Rev 6:11 that there are two groups of martyr's that will make up the GM. You ignore that due to your unproven belief that seals 1 - 5 are already open. Show me where Daniel’s 70th week is defined as beginning from AD1.

The second group of martyrs id in Rev 20:4. The first group comes out of the 2nd and 4th seals. The second group comes from the slaughter of new converts in the 2nd half. Those new converts are slaughtered because of their testimony of Jesus Christ.

I have proof of everything above; you can’t disprove a thing.

Matthew 24:
There are interesting events in the sermon of JESUS described in Matthew 24

1st EVENT-FIRST JESUS PROPHESIED: DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE - DEN OF THIEVES
1- When our Lord came out from the Temple, the disciples came to Him for to shew Him the buildings of the Temple. (Certainty they were exultant and excited and talked with the Lord of the greatness and beauty of the Temple )
2- And JESUS said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

See, the testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy. What JESUS said above was LITERALLY fulfilled in the year 70AD, around 40 years after His ascension. There should never again be built another similar man-made Temple, or the old Temple-the den of the thieves- never came to be rebuilt as it had been before.
Notice that concerning the destruction of the Temple", it has nothing to do with Mount Olives; Mount Olives has to do only with the destruction of the World of Devil in the current time, now, even now, from now on. FIRST, the nation of Israel, included the Temple,the den of thieves, were destroyed. And nation of Israel was destroyed from 70 to 1948, 1878 years of severe punishments and curses -Deuteronomy 28:15-68- and the Temple -the den of thieves- there should never again be built another. The father of the Jews-John 8:44- will be cast down into the bottomless pit, that he should deceive the nations no more-Revelation 20:1-4.

- 2nd EVENT- DESTRUCTION OF THE DEVIL's WORLD & SIGNS OF JESUS's COMING
3 And JESUS sat upon the mount of Olives. The disciples came unto Him privately, saying: Tell us, when shall these things be?
1- What shall be the sign of thy coming?
2- And of the END of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and gave a LIST of signs unto them, saying the things that AT FIRST will happen:
(1) Take heed that no man deceive you;
(2) For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ (John 5:43-48); and shall deceive many;
(3) And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the END is not yet;
(4) For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom;
(5) and there shall be famines;
(6) and pestilences;
(7) and earthquakes, in divers places;
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
JESUS continued warning: All these are the beginning of sorrows . At first, all these things MUST come to pass, but the END is not yet.<--> In fact, it is a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL PERIOD.
By the way, when the END will be? It's easy to know by the Word of GOD:1Corinthians 15:24.

JESUS continued prophesying and warning His people -His Church- about the signs of His coming, and of the END of the WORLD of Devil even from now on, even in this current time, saying what shall happen with His people in prolongation of this current period of sorrows:
(1) they shall deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you;
(2) and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake;
(3) then shall many be offended;
(4) and shall betray one another;
(5) and shall hate one another.
(6) many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
(7) And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

The promise of our Lord JESUS
He that shall endure unto the END of the world, the same shall be saved, the gospel of the Kingdom of GOD-Revelation 11:15- shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all NATIONS;
Then shall the END come; So, when ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place-JERUSALEM-, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )
then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.-(This terrible event of the great tribulation will happen because Michael will stand up, and then Michael shall cause the great tribulation in whole Earth: Example: Genesis 19:12-14 combined with Daniel 12:1-, and except these days (these current days) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

So, if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ-John 5:43-47-, or there, BELIEVE NOT, for there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets(false preachers of the Word of GOD) , and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. (PERILOUS TIMES-Be careful or else get ready)

JESUS warned: Behold, I have told you before - Matthew 24:25.

The Word is GOD, GOD Himself, self-executing, understand? Be careful or else get ready.

keras · May 25, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Show me where Daniel’s 70th week is defined as beginning from AD1.

This shows that you fail to properly read my posts, let alone the Bible.
It is Seals 1 to 5 which began in the first Century.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
I have proof of everything above; you can’t disprove a thing.

You have yet to prove a rapture to heaven.
With such an incredible belief, it makes anything you say to be suspect and likely improbable.

Jeffrey Bowden · May 25, 2024

keras said:
This shows that you fail to properly read my posts, let alone the Bible.
It is Seals 1 to 5 which began in the first Century.

You have yet to prove a rapture to heaven.
With such an incredible belief, it makes anything you say to be suspect and likely improbable.

Where does the Bible say seals 1 - 5 begin in AD1?

You are ignoring all proof that “those who dwell on the earth” are unbelievers. Rev 3:10 therefore is about two groups: “You” is we believers, and “those” are unbelievers since they are “those who dwell on the earth.”

We are therefore not on earth during “the hour of trial” that will come over the whole earth. That means, we are raptured pre-hour of trial that will come over “those who dwell on the earth.” You can’t refute this because “those who dwell on the earth” are unbelievers.

keras · May 25, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
Where does the Bible say seals 1 - 5 begin in AD1?

Revelation 5:7 & 6:1-9. Also the historical record proves they were opened after Jesus Ascended.
Your refutation of these facts, means the Christian martyrs do not have any special treatment.

Jeffrey Bowden said:
“those who dwell on the earth” are unbelievers. Rev 3:10

They are everybody alive at that time.
Your idea of dividing them into two groups, is purely done to support the false rapture theory. Without real proof of when and why the Lord will take His peoples to heaven, you don't have a case.

Jeffrey Bowden · May 26, 2024

keras said:
Revelation 5:7 & 6:1-9. Also the historical record proves they were opened after Jesus Ascended.
Your refutation of these facts, means the Christian martyrs do not have any special treatment.

They are everybody alive at that time.
Your idea of dividing them into two groups, is purely done to support the false rapture theory. Without real proof of when and why the Lord will take His peoples to heaven, you don't have a case.

Jesus ascended 40 days into AD1. Rev was written around 95 to 96 AD. That’s when Paul received his vision.

Rev 1:19 (ESV): Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this.

——- What is to take place after this?

Rev 4:1 (ESV): After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.”

Rev 4 and beyond are in the future, including Rev 4:1, the rapture before the Trib.

Jeffrey Bowden · May 26, 2024

keras said:
Revelation 5:7 & 6:1-9. Also the historical record proves they were opened after Jesus Ascended.
Your refutation of these facts, means the Christian martyrs do not have any special treatment.

They are everybody alive at that time.
Your idea of dividing them into two groups, is purely done to support the false rapture theory. Without real proof of when and why the Lord will take His peoples to heaven, you don't have a case.

Jesus is perfect in every way, including His grammar.

In Rev 3:10, “you” and “those” cannot relate to the same group. “You” was used to address folks in Jesus’ presence.

In reference to “those who dwell on the earth,” he was referring to folks very distant. Jesus chose the correct words, and He used them exactly right.

keras · May 26, 2024

That the idea of a rapture to heaven is wrong, is simply proved by Revelation 12:14 & 17, where the two groups of the Christian peoples are on earth up to the day Jesus Returns. One group kept in a safe location on earth, the other undergoing persecution.

Jesus never wrote anything that we know of.
But He said plainly at least six times, that it was impossible for humans to go to live in heaven.

Jeffrey Bowden · May 26, 2024

keras said:
That the idea of a rapture to heaven is wrong, is simply proved by Revelation 12:14 & 17, where the two groups of the Christian peoples are on earth up to the day Jesus Returns. One group kept in a safe location on earth, the other undergoing persecution.

Jesus never wrote anything that we know of.
But He said plainly at least six times, that it was impossible for humans to go to live in heaven.

Rev 12 is about Satan losing the war in Heaven and being thrown down to earth. He immediately attacks new converts that are giving testimony of Jesus Christ. That is where the second group of martyrs comes from for the GM. They end up in Rev 20:4.

Rev 3:10 (ESV): I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, <——- comma as a separation —— “You” are the believers in His presence ——-

…. to try those who dwell on the earth.

——— “those” are the unbelievers on earth.

We believers never enter the Trib. We are raptured to Heaven just as Jesus promised in John 14:2-3.

keras · May 26, 2024

Jeffrey Bowden said:
We believers never enter the Trib. We are raptured to Heaven just as Jesus promised in John 14:2-3.

John 14:2-3, says that Jesus is preparing the new Jerusalem, the place where those who have proved their faith and trust in the Lord, will live AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7
It is false teaching to say that Prophecy means a pre-trib rapture.

If John 14:1-3 is your best rapture proof, then that whole belief is just a made up theory and cannot happen.

Jeffrey Bowden · May 27, 2024

keras said:
John 14:2-3, says that Jesus is preparing the new Jerusalem, the place where those who have proved their faith and trust in the Lord, will live AFTER the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7
It is false teaching to say that Prophecy means a pre-trib rapture.

If John 14:1-3 is your best rapture proof, then that whole belief is just a made up theory and cannot happen.

John 14:3 (NIV): And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am.

Verse 3: I will come back and TAKE YOU to be with me ——- that fulfills 1 Th 4:16-17, after the last trump in 1 Th 4:16 and 1 Cor 15:52, and our being taken up into heavenly clouds to meet Jesus (1 Th 4:17).

Verse 3: … that you also may be where I am.

Where is Jesus now?

VOTE HOW MANY BELIEVE IN A PRE TRIBULATION HOPE/RAPTURE ?

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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