Question: Does the Catholic Church teach the possibility of achieving dispassion in this life?

Passions are normal while the lack of control of passions is abnormal, an effect of the Fall. Jesus was passionate but His passions were pure, undefiled by the influence of an impure heart. Desires can be ordered or disordered/inordinate, a result of concupiscence. A healthy appetite for food, for example, is a self-controlled appetite while gluttony is the abuse of that normal appetite- where one becomes a slave to it instead. A completely sanctified or holy person would have complete, balanced control of desires and passions-and some have probably come close to this perfection in all things. But perfect sinlessness is not expected in this life even if that's the right and proper goal for Christians. The Catholic Church teaches:

1767 In themselves passions are neither good nor evil. They are morally qualified only to the extent that they effectively engage reason and will. Passions are said to be voluntary, "either because they are commanded by the will or because the will does not place obstacles in their way."44 It belongs to the perfection of the moral or human good that the passions be governed by reason.45

I suppose there are a few saints who achieved what might be called "dispassion". Francis of Assisi comes to mind along with a handful of other saints. I think they would be few and far between.

If it comes to that I think dedicated Buddhist monks could lay claim to being "dispassionate".

But for most of us mortal Catholics, i think we might need a bit of time in Purgatory to make the grade.

I think this quote from Augustine is interesting:

"Complete abstinence is easier than perfect moderation."

Perfect moderation being the greater or most mature holiness as I understand it.

Nagomirov said:

Can a believer, at the very heights of holiness, achieve dispassion? What does the Catholic Church say about this?

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I would say, “Yes, in rare circumstances,” but it is a bit difficult to translate that concept into Catholic thought.

fhansen said:

I think this quote from Augustine is interesting:

"Complete abstinence is easier than perfect moderation."

Perfect moderation being the greater or most mature holiness as I understand it.

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Neither of the above goals correspond well with the important Orthodox theological concept of apatheia. Indeed I would say apatheia is more important than moderation and abstinence.

That said I would be surprised, shocked even, if Byzantine Rite Catholics such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, Melkite Catholics, Ruthenian Greek Catholics, Russian Greek Catholics, and others, do not teach or pursue apatheia both among the laity and among religious, given how Byzantine Rite Catholicism has become de-Latinized and re-Byzantinized since Vatican II (the Byzantine Rite and the East Syriac Rite Catholics are probably the ones that most benefitted from Vatican II, whereas the Roman and Maronite Rite Catholics experienced the most damage to their tradition, with the Ambrosian Catholics (the Ambrosian Rite is used instead of the Roman Rite in the Italian economic center of Milan and the surrounding region, by more than a million Catholics) also taking some damage to their liturgical forms, although at least the music and vesture and the overall feel of the Ambrosian Rite was preserved).

The Liturgist said:

Neither of the above goals correspond well with the important Orthodox theological concept of apatheia. Indeed I would say apatheia is more important than moderation and abstinence.

That said I would be surprised, shocked even, if Byzantine Rite Catholics such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, Melkite Catholics, Ruthenian Greek Catholics, Russian Greek Catholics, and others, do not teach or pursue apatheia both among the laity and among religious, given how Byzantine Rite Catholicism has become de-Latinized and re-Byzantinized since Vatican II (the Byzantine Rite and the East Syriac Rite Catholics are probably the ones that most benefitted from Vatican II, whereas the Roman and Maronite Rite Catholics experienced the most damage to their tradition, with the Ambrosian Catholics (the Ambrosian Rite is used instead of the Roman Rite in the Italian economic center of Milan and the surrounding region, by more than a million Catholics) also taking some damage to their liturgical forms, although at least the music and vesture and the overall feel of the Ambrosian Rite was preserved).

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I think to be no longer driven or controlled by concupiscence, covetousness, inordinate desires, etc, is certainly only a good thing and something that the Church has always promoted -and that ascetics, especially, have striven for of course. But, if you think about, it, perfect moderation would be the key because to halt the appetite for food completely, for example, would be unhealthy, fatal, whereas to have a normal appetite for food would constitute true obedience to God's will. We're creatures, who must be mindful of the fact that we have needs, that we're not the Creator. But, OTOH, excesses are so harmful in this world that self-mastery, even to an excessive degree, itself, is far superior, holier. True innocence, however, should have no need for either extreme. Just some thoughts, probably wrong.

fhansen said:

I think to be no longer driven or controlled by concupiscence, covetousness, inordinate desires, etc, is certainly only a good thing and something that the Church has always promoted -and that ascetics, especially, have striven for of course. But, if you think about, it, perfect moderation would be the key because to halt the appetite for food completely, for example, would be unhealthy, fatal, whereas to have a normal appetite for food would constitute true obedience to God's will. We're creatures, who must be mindful of the fact that we have needs, that we're not the Creator. But, OTOH, excesses are so harmful in this world that self-mastery, even to an excessive degree, itself, is far superior, holier. True innocence, however, should have no need for either extreme. Just some thoughts, probably wrong.

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Perfect moderation is not the key because several of the passions are entirely sinful. Indeed of the three you named I would argue that two of them are entirely sinful and one of them is sinful outside of the context of reproduction in Holy Matrimony, which monastics are not called to do.

Additionally, among the Orthodox, and I hope among Byzantine Catholics, the practice of apatheia is actively taught to laity and strongly encouraged. It is not something reserved for ascetics, or even taught to ascetics in a full-on manner and taught to the laity in a somewhat toned down manner, which is the case with Hesychasm and the Jesus Prayer (specifically laity are warned not to try some of the advanced practices typically used by Hesychast monks such as breathing techniques without having an experienced Hesychast monastic elder to guide them, someone like Elder Sophrony, memory eternal, or Elder Joseph or his spiritual son Elder Ephraim of Arizona, memory eternal; likewise St. Ignatius Brianchaninov wrote the Arena as a book of instruction for monks, which is also edifying for the laity, but as a book of instruction for the laity, he wrote the shorter and simpler work “On the Prayer of Jesus.”

But Apatheia on the other hand is something that is widely taught to neophytes and catechumens in many jurisdictions. And it is an immensely liberating teaching. Someone who cultivates apatheia will find themselves less and less troubled by, for example, the affairs of the secular world, and thus more and more able to focus on their love for God. Apatheia teaches us to experience life Eucharistically rather than becoming impassioned about secular issues which are irrelevant to our salvation, such as most of the political issues that have become such an issue of fixation, even to the extent of virtue-signaling by many large consumer-facing corporations, since 2020.

Apatheia goes beyond not merely being caught up in those cause celebres, but also in terms of not even caring that they have become issues, other than, in the case of certain disturbing trends, such as various corporate endorsements of the sins of pride and of sodomy we are seeing this month, being aware of it as a matter of nepsis (watchfulness) and opposing it as a matter of evangelism, for we are to be the light and salt of the world, but not to allow it to upset us or cause us to lose our equanymity, which pleases our adversary the devil greatly, because when he cannot get us to sin directly, the next best thing is to upset us with shocking sins of others, so we engage with various sinful passions such as pride and wrath, and are also made unhappy and potentially shaken in our faith and convictions. Apatheia provides us a defense against that.

But Apatheia does not mean we don’t care - we do care - we should maintain spiritual vigilance, nepsis, meaning watchfulness, and be on our guard, first and foremost with respect to our own salvation, and secondly with respect to our brothers and sisters who we are obliged to care for (and are able to care for, that is to say, that we are in a relationship where we can engage in some beneficial action), or else, if that is impossible, to pray for, for we can always pray for people, and many of us forget that we should be praying in particular for our enemies in this day and age, for example, for those people who are being deceived by the devil into indulging in the passions of lust and pride, and thus are proudly engaging in sodomitic relationships, committing a multitude of comorbid sins which aggravate each other and worsen the overall spiritual condition - these people really need our prayers, because some of them are delivered from it and saved. And likewise, we really should be praying for those who have introduced this gross immorality into the official doctrine of all of the mainline Protestant churches in the US, and many others around the world, for they really need our prayer as well.

And such prayer can be efficacious. In the 1970s, two cults, the Jesus People and the Holy Order Of Mens, both formed groups which developed into Orthodoxy, the Evangelical Orthodox Church and Christ the Savior Brotherhood, and in due course the vast majority of these people were converted to Holy Orthodoxy and were received into the Antiochian Orthodox Church and the Orthodox Church in America.

The Liturgist said:

Perfect moderation is not the key because several of the passions are entirely sinful. Indeed of the three you named I would argue that two of them are entirely sinful and one of them is sinful outside of the context of reproduction in Holy Matrimony, which monastics are not called to do.

Additionally, among the Orthodox, and I hope among Byzantine Catholics, the practice of apatheia is actively taught to laity and strongly encouraged. It is not something reserved for ascetics, or even taught to ascetics in a full-on manner and taught to the laity in a somewhat toned down manner, which is the case with Hesychasm and the Jesus Prayer (specifically laity are warned not to try some of the advanced practices typically used by Hesychast monks such as breathing techniques without having an experienced Hesychast monastic elder to guide them, someone like Elder Sophrony, memory eternal, or Elder Joseph or his spiritual son Elder Ephraim of Arizona, memory eternal; likewise St. Ignatius Brianchaninov wrote the Arena as a book of instruction for monks, which is also edifying for the laity, but as a book of instruction for the laity, he wrote the shorter and simpler work “On the Prayer of Jesus.”

But Apatheia on the other hand is something that is widely taught to neophytes and catechumens in many jurisdictions. And it is an immensely liberating teaching. Someone who cultivates apatheia will find themselves less and less troubled by, for example, the affairs of the secular world, and thus more and more able to focus on their love for God. Apatheia teaches us to experience life Eucharistically rather than becoming impassioned about secular issues which are irrelevant to our salvation, such as most of the political issues that have become such an issue of fixation, even to the extent of virtue-signaling by many large consumer-facing corporations, since 2020.

Apatheia goes beyond not merely being caught up in those cause celebres, but also in terms of not even caring that they have become issues, other than, in the case of certain disturbing trends, such as various corporate endorsements of the sins of pride and of sodomy we are seeing this month, being aware of it as a matter of nepsis (watchfulness) and opposing it as a matter of evangelism, for we are to be the light and salt of the world, but not to allow it to upset us or cause us to lose our equanymity, which pleases our adversary the devil greatly, because when he cannot get us to sin directly, the next best thing is to upset us with shocking sins of others, so we engage with various sinful passions such as pride and wrath, and are also made unhappy and potentially shaken in our faith and convictions. Apatheia provides us a defense against that.

But Apatheia does not mean we don’t care - we do care - we should maintain spiritual vigilance, nepsis, meaning watchfulness, and be on our guard, first and foremost with respect to our own salvation, and secondly with respect to our brothers and sisters who we are obliged to care for (and are able to care for, that is to say, that we are in a relationship where we can engage in some beneficial action), or else, if that is impossible, to pray for, for we can always pray for people, and many of us forget that we should be praying in particular for our enemies in this day and age, for example, for those people who are being deceived by the devil into indulging in the passions of lust and pride, and thus are proudly engaging in sodomitic relationships, committing a multitude of comorbid sins which aggravate each other and worsen the overall spiritual condition - these people really need our prayers, because some of them are delivered from it and saved. And likewise, we really should be praying for those who have introduced this gross immorality into the official doctrine of all of the mainline Protestant churches in the US, and many others around the world, for they really need our prayer as well.

And such prayer can be efficacious. In the 1970s, two cults, the Jesus People and the Holy Order Of Mens, both formed groups which developed into Orthodoxy, the Evangelical Orthodox Church and Christ the Savior Brotherhood, and in due course the vast majority of these people were converted to Holy Orthodoxy and were received into the Antiochian Orthodox Church and the Orthodox Church in America.

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Asceticism, itself, can be a form of idolatry as well. But nothing you've said really disagreed with my previous post IMO. Certainly the church in the west continues to promote asceticism and self-discipline for all, even if things are probably too lax nowadays on that matter.

But while I know I might be out on a limb with this, what I'm saying is that a truly innocent and holy person as Adam & Eve were gifted to be in Eden would have little need for considering their passions. Their desires would always be moderate, in line with God's will. So...what are the three passions I named which are sinful? If this is what you're speaking of, concupiscence, for example, isn't a specific passion in itself but rather is the tendency in fallen man to allow normal passions/desires to become excessive or inordinate, to steer us off course and into sin. It's to lack control over that which is otherwise normal and good. Related to this, as I see it, is another quote from Augustine, "The only possible source of evil is good."

fhansen said:

Asceticism, itself, can be a form of idolatry as well.

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Perhaps, but the main danger is of ascetics who have conquered passions such as lust and gluttony falling into pride, and thus undoing all the good they had achieved. Pride is of extreme danger to monastics. Much of the three classic Orthodox texts that deal with monasticism, asceticism, mystical theology and prayer, those being the Ladder of Divine Ascent, the Philokalia, and the Arena of St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, spend much time talking about the dangers of pride, and of spiritual delusion, or prelest, as we call it.

The Liturgist said:

Perhaps, but the main danger is of ascetics who have conquered passions such as lust and gluttony falling into pride, and thus undoing all the good they had achieved. Pride is of extreme danger to monastics. Much of the three classic Orthodox texts that deal with monasticism, asceticism, mystical theology and prayer, those being the Ladder of Divine Ascent, the Philokalia, and the Arena of St. Ignatius Brianchaninov, spend much time talking about the dangers of pride, and of spiritual delusion, or prelest, as we call it.

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That makes sense-pride is the killer of us all as it exalts us above everything, including the Author of Life!

fhansen said:

I think this quote from Augustine is interesting:

"Complete abstinence is easier than perfect moderation."

Perfect moderation being the greater or most mature holiness as I understand it.

Click to expand...

That would be correct. The passions are like the old commercial for Lays potato chips. “No one can eat just one.” Satan uses our memories and emotions against us. His trick is to make the evil seem good and the good evil. When we indulge the senses even for a little bit, we are frequently tempted to excess.

Some passions are necessary for life, like eating. I can truthfully testify that it is easier to fast for 60 hours, drinking only black coffee and water, rather than for me to eat only one lays potato chip or any potato chip for that matter

Yet my goal of spiritual discipline would be to eat one potato chip per day for seven days rather than attempt a 144hr fast

It would seem impossible, and it is humanly impossible, but God tells us to ask for grace and we will receive it. Is it a more noble gesture of godly love to ask for the grace to receive perfect virtue?

There are seven virtues (virtue means habit), when faced with temptation we perform the good rather than fall to evil.

We ask God not take away all tests but the grace to endure. When we pray lead us not into temptation but deliver us from evil, we don’t pray to be like the cartoon monkeys that cover their eyes ears and mouth, but for the grace to see things that were once tempting are no longer as appealing.

If you want to conquer pride, you must endure humiliation and even unjust punishment for yourself, yet cry out the injustice toward others.

If you wish to conquer wrath, you must pray for patience in chaos

To conquer envy, rejoice at the good fortune of others

To conquer greed give alms and realize that the money is not ours in the first place, it all belongs to God

To conquer gluttony, fast regularly, and for master class est one and only one potato chip per day

To conquer sloth begin by doing, even Jordan Peterson says oh at least make your bed in the morning so you can have at least done something

To conquer lust, no you can’t pray to be chaste with more opportunity to fall. With lust you have to avert your eyes and say no. What helps me is to remember the primary purpose of sexual intercourse. That is children. A beautiful woman walks by, I remember the old temptation, I just say to myself, so you thinking about a baby again? No I don’t want anymore kids, then stop lustfully looking at fertile woman.

Dispassion can be achieved if we pray and ask for it, and the more we pray the more our virtue develops. As Catholics we have the sacraments, so if we fall, we can go to confession, and even if we don’t sin mortally, regular confession helps to build virtue, and if we stay out of mortal sin, the
Eucharist received worthily cleanses us from
Venial sin and decreases concupisence.

Building virtue is like building muscle at a gym, we must work and follow the commands of God, especially when He tells us to pray and he will give what we ask.

To take a defeatist attitude and conclude that complete dispassion is not achievable in this life and say why try? Is unacceptable. That is the very definition of sloth, especially since God has given us so many promises to help us if we ask

Do have virtue? Ask God He loves us and will answer. He does not condone or wink at sin in His followers but desires to cleanse us. We just have to ask. He has lead me to that place. I know that I have far to go, but at least I can now see the path, and yes it is narrow and has a straight gate