Slaughtered the first born of Egyp

Clare73 said:

So you think God's moral laws are about positive and negative energies affecting how others feel?

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That's not what I had in mind but sure, if I steal from someone, they will feel differently about me than if I don't. Also, being stolen from leads to feeling violated and anger and distrust of others, insecurity etc... I Consider Cain and how his countenance had fallen, and how he got angry because his offering was not respected and killed his brother. If I asked him if he gave the offering to please God or to look good, I wonder if that would have derailed his anger.

It is written that God is Love, and I believe love is the source of all our spiritual/emotional feelings, and it's common that hatred comes from feeling betrayed. Our faith is that God's Love we see in Christ on the cross is incorruptible and Eternal. Faith is the evidence of things hoped for. Hopefulness is a light in the soul and hopelessness is a darkness. I think love is what matters and that love will fulfill the intent of the law. I'm talking about spiritual energy as in "spiritual powers" of Light/darkness. Hence when we walk in His Spirit, we manifest good fruits.

childeye 2 said:

That's not what I had in mind but sure, if I steal from someone, they will feel differently about me than if I don't. Also, being stolen from leads to feeling violated and anger and distrust of others, insecurity etc... I Consider Cain and how his countenance had fallen, and how he got angry because his offering was not respected and killed his brother. If I asked him if he gave the offering to please God or to look good, I wonder if that would have derailed his anger.

It is written that God is Love, and I believe love is the source of all our spiritual/emotional feelings, and it's common that hatred comes from feeling betrayed. Our faith is that God's Love we see in Christ on the cross is incorruptible and Eternal. Faith is the evidence of things hoped for. Hopefulness is a light in the soul and hopelessness is a darkness. I think love is what matters and that love will fulfill the intent of the law. I'm talking about spiritual energy as in "spiritual powers" of Light/darkness. Hence when we walk in His Spirit, we manifest good fruits.

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Would it surprise you to know that God's economy is not based on human feelings?

Clare73 said:

Would it surprise you to know that God's economy is not based on human feelings?

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You would have to elaborate further. Qualify your terms; "human feelings?", "God's economy?". Also, I would like your description of faith in relevance to God's economy.

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Exodus 12: "12 “On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt."

So the first born were all deserved to die?
Who will give them justice?
In modern day, isn't this a genocide? Ethnic cleansing?

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Hello,

Are you familiar with the story of Moses and why he was put into the river so he wouldn't be killed by the Egyptians?
Pharaoh had ordered his people to kill the children of God and so they did per Exodus 1:22

Pharaoh and his people reaped what they sowed by killing the children of God first.
Was that genocide?
Who will give them justice?
Did the children of God deserve to die as children?

Exodus 1:22 And Pharaoh charged all his people, saying, Every son that is born ye shall cast into the river, and every daughter ye shall save alive.

God is always just and fair!

Galatians 6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Beware of the skeptics that like to use your questions to attack God and the faith of His followers!
God is not a murderer and doesn't break His own laws!

Hope this helps!

Bless you,
Love Fountain

childeye 2 said:

You would have to elaborate further. Qualify your terms; "human feelings?", "God's economy?". Also, I would like your description of faith in relevance to God's economy.

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Human feelings. . .human emotions.

God's economy. . .God's governing order.

Saving faith. . .belief in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God; i.e., justified (declared forensically righteous).

Life of faith. . .obedience in and to Christ.

Clare73 said:

Human feelings. . .human emotions.

God's economy. . .God's governing order.

Saving faith. . .belief in and trust on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) and person of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God; i.e., justified (declared forensically righteous).

Life of faith. . .obedience in and to Christ.

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Okay, that's what I thought.

If you will recall, this is what you first asked me: "So you think God's moral laws are about positive and negative energies affecting how others feel?"

My response: "That's not what I had in mind but sure, if I steal from someone, they will feel differently about me than if I don't. Also, being stolen from leads to feeling violated, and anger, and distrust of others, insecurity etc..."

You then asked: "Would it surprise you to know that God's economy is not based on human feelings?"

So, here's the problem. Emotions, as physiological processes that affect behavior, can be complex. In subjective semantic analysis Human feelings and emotions are not always going to be the same thing. For example, I think Faith/trust qualifies as a human feeling, but not a human emotion. Moreover, I see this dichotomy, Trust/distrust, as Positive/negative energy and that implies power.

Therefore, I can't answer your question as posed because I can't be sure what you mean by God's governing order not being based on human feelings/emotions. To me it's a loaded question.

IF you're intending to imply that God's governing order is based on faith and obedience to Christ, I can agree with that, but that won't mean that heartfelt obedience is not based on human feelings/emotions.

For we know faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. And to know God, is to know the incorruptible Love which is the fundamental Spirit/emotion of good will towards others, in Whom we also worship in truth and Spirit when seeing that the faith/trust is in God as the Eternal power. Wherefore it can be said that to know Him is to Love Him. So, for example, Jesus said to love others as I have loved you, and he shed his blood for us. And he taught us that all the law and the prophets are based on Loving God with all your heart mind and soul and loving your neighbor as yourself. We therefore cannot be faithfully obedient to Christ without Love.

1 Corinthians 13,
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,

5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;

6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

childeye 2 said:

If you will recall, this is what you first asked me: "So you think God's moral laws are about positive and negative energies affecting how others feel?"
My response: "That's not what I had in mind but sure, if I steal from someone, they will feel differently about me than if I don't. Also, being stolen from leads to feeling violated, and anger, and distrust of others, insecurity etc..."
You then asked: "Would it surprise you to know that God's economy is not based on human feelings?"
So, here's the problem. Emotions, as physiological processes that affect behavior, can be complex. In subjective semantic analysis Human feelings and emotions are not always going to be the same thing. For example, I think Faith/trust qualifies as a human feeling, but not a human emotion. Moreover, I see this dichotomy, Trust/distrust, as Positive/negative energies.

Therefore, I can't answer your question as posed because I can't be sure what you mean by God's governing order not being based on human feelings/emotions. To me it's a loaded question.

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Then let me answer the question for you.

God's economy is not based on human feelings. It is based on his eternal decrees.

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Exodus 12: "12 “On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass over you. No destructive plague will touch you when I strike Egypt."

So the first born were all deserved to die?
Who will give them justice?
In modern day, isn't this a genocide? Ethnic cleansing?

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The passage you have provided, Mr. Lay Hong, from Exodus 12 describes a significant event in the Old Testament narrative, where God was bringing about the liberation of the Israelites from slavery in Egypt. The firstborn of both people and animals were to be spared if the houses where they lived had been marked with the blood of a lamb. This was a part of the Passover celebration, and those who followed God's instructions were protected from the Angel of Death passing through Egypt to take the firstborn.

The idea that all firstborn were deserving of death is not an accurate interpretation of this text. Instead, it was a part of God's plan to bring judgment upon Egypt and free the Israelites from slavery.

As for who would give justice in this situation, it is essential to understand that the Old Testament narrative presents a unique religious and cultural context. In this context, God was seen as the ultimate judge and source of justice.

Regarding your question about whether this event could be considered genocide or ethnic cleansing in modern-day terms, it is important to remember that ancient cultures and contemporary understandings of ethical issues can differ significantly. The concept of genocide as we know it today did not exist during biblical times, and the Passover event described in Exodus 12 is a complex part of religious history rather than an instance of ethnic cleansing.

However, it's crucial to acknowledge that the passage you provided has been used throughout history as a justification for violence against certain groups. This misinterpretation is not only incorrect but also dangerous and morally unjustifiable. The text itself should be understood within its historical context and not used to promote or condone harm against any people.

In conclusion, the passage from Exodus 12 does not mean that all firstborn were deserving of death. Instead, it describes a specific event where God brought judgment upon Egypt and spared the Israelites through the Passover celebration. The concept of justice in this context is tied to God's role as the ultimate judge, and modern interpretations should be approached with caution, avoiding any potential justification for harm against others.

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More stuff below:

Several Bible verses condemn the practice of genocide or mass killing of innocent people. Here are some examples.

1. Exodus 20:13 - "You shall not murder." This is one of the Ten Commandments, which prohibits the taking of innocent life.
2. Deuteronomy 19:4 - "Then you shall do to him as he had intended to do to his brother. So you shall purge the evil from your midst." This verse emphasizes that violence and harm should only be inflicted upon those who have deliberately caused harm or threatened innocent life.
3. Jeremiah 4:2 - "Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say, 'Blow the trumpet in the land; sound an alarm in my people! Let all their hands be lifted up to the Lord for national salvation; for the vessels of the Lord are being broken, even the precious vessels, the seals are being poured out, and the most valuable things are being taken away.' " This verse calls for repentance and seeking God's salvation rather than resorting to violence against others.
4. Amos 1:11 - "In Bethel, on the very first day of the new year, I revealed Myself to the house of Jeroboam. Then Zeus, that is Baal, provoked me with what Israel had done; and I destroyed the whole house of Jeroboam in Bethel with a sword." This verse is part of a series of condemnations against various nations for their sins, including the sin of shedding innocent blood.
5. Matthew 19:14 - "But Jesus said, 'Let the children come to Me; do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.' " This verse emphasizes the value and protection of innocent children, who should not be harmed or endangered.
6. Matthew 22:39 - "And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' " This verse from the New Testament emphasizes the importance of loving and caring for others as we would love and care for ourselves, which includes respecting their lives and well being.
7. Romans 12:19 - "Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written: 'Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,' says the Lord." This verse encourages forgiveness and leaving vengeance to God rather than resorting to violence or harm against those who have wronged us.
8. Revelation 6:9-11 - "When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. They cried out with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?' " This verse from the Book of Revelation acknowledges the suffering and persecution of the innocent and their cry for justice and vindication.

Clare73 said:

Then let me answer the question for you.

God's economy is not based on human feelings. It is based on his eternal decrees.

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God is Love. While stones are regarded as things without feelings and not persons with feelings, God could make children unto Himself out of stones. God made Human feelings. Have you considered that without human feelings there would be no meaning?

Did God conceive of human feelings when He decreed from Eternity there would be a Christ?
Isaiah 53:3-4 (King James Version)

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Hebrews 2
5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?

7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

childeye 2 said:

Did God conceive of human feelings before He decreed from Eternity there would be a Christ?

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Did God conceive of human sin before he decreed from Eternity there would be a Christ?

Clare73 said:

Did God conceive of human sin before he decreed from Eternity there would be a Christ?

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I believe God foreknew that vanity would manifest in the creature as a matter of circumstance. I believe God perceived vanity would beget sin. Now what about God conceiving that the Christ would have to have human feelings before decreeing it?

childeye 2 said:

I believe God foreknew that vanity would manifest in the creature as a matter of circumstance. I believe God perceived vanity would beget sin. Now what about God conceiving that the Christ would have to have human feelings before decreeing it?

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All God had to do was decree a human, which comes with all its parts, including emotion.

Clare73 said:

All God had to do was decree a human, which comes with all its parts, including emotion.

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God can create and does create whatever He desires with the power of His Word (He is the source of the energy that forms all things).

But the decree itself is dependent upon what God desires before He decrees it. It looks to me like God made mankind so as to reveal Himself to the creation both in heaven and on earth, and also, to create children unto Himself made in His likeness. And since He is the incorruptible Eternal Love being displayed in a temporal, carnal, corruptible existence, His decree would be dependent upon His desire that mankind would have Human feelings capable of knowing Him and comprehending Him from each unique and Human perspective.
2 Corinthians 4:7

In that sense, His eternal decree would be dependent upon human feelings. <--- This is a semantical construct which may or may not apply to what you had in mind when you said: "God's economy is not based on human feelings. It is based on his eternal decrees."

childeye 2 said:

I believe God foreknew that vanity would manifest in the creature as a matter of circumstance. I believe God perceived vanity would beget sin. Now what about God conceiving that the Christ would have to have human feelings before decreeing it?

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Within God's extemporal simultaneity, God already had the experience of the human feelings of Jesus before Creation.

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Hamas sined and the whole Palestine suffered, is that a fair principle?

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No, it's not. I suspect that if the Palestinians could or would turn over all the Hamas members--even if just the ones the Israelis know about--the suffering would end quickly.

RDKirk said:

Within God's extemporal simultaneity, God already had the experience of the human feelings of Jesus before Creation.

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Simultaneity makes sense. But extemporal implies spontaneous rather than planned. In your view does that mean the Word of creation was the expression of the longing to be known and/or not be alone, or was it a more orchestrated plan which would involve foresight?

LayHong_Loves_Christ said:

Hamas sined and the whole Palestine suffered, is that a fair principle?

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Yes, and they're still sinning and the people are still suffering. Another thing to keep in mind, that many times in scripture it says that God uses sinful people to chastise His own. So what God does is very complex and we need to be careful not to judge His actions with simplistic logic.

childeye 2 said:

Simultaneity makes sense. But extemporal implies spontaneous rather than planned. In your view does that mean the Word of creation was the expression of the longing to be known and/or not be alone, or was it a more orchestrated plan which would involve foresight?

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"Extemporal" comes from the Latin phrase ex tempore, which means "out of time," denoting "existing outside of time." It archaically meant "spontaneous rather than planned" because an extemporal being does not think in linear terms. Our thoughts are a procession...God's thoughts are not a procession. God's mind does not operate linearly because His mind simultaneously holds all thoughts that can be thought. HIs mind is non-processionary, which appears "spontaneous" to our linear minds.

RDKirk said:

"Extemporal" comes from the Latin phrase ex tempore, which means "out of time," denoting "existing outside of time." It archaically meant "spontaneous rather than planned" because an extemporal being does not think in linear terms. Our thoughts are a procession...God's thoughts are not a procession. God's mind does not operate linearly because His mind simultaneously holds all thoughts that can be thought. HIs mind is non-processionary, which appears "spontaneous" to our linear minds.

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As I understand it, the term Eternal denotes what is, what always was, and is always going to be. It's an imagery of that which never changes. To me it connotes that the Eternal reacts to nothing (does not react to anything), which in turn infers that the Eternal is spontaneous and without planning or deliberation as pertains to a Divine Nature that surpasses all knowledge.

It therefore would seem to me, that to those who acknowledge they are subject to higher powers, events will appear as planned and predictable because they are reactions to the Eternal. I think semantical confusion occurs because the articulation that the world is in darkness (ignorance of God) suggests that when the Christ enters the creation, his Spirit has the power to affect the course of events from inside the creation (inside time).