School Choice’s Texas-Size Victory

ralliann · Mar 17, 2024

BCP1928 said:
Aren't they fellow Americans who reside in the community? Don't they share your values?

What's up with this? A community has culture, created by it's members. All contribute to the communities culture, and values? So, I have to wonder where your mind is at in the above? Children grow up in Communities and it's culture and values? So, why would schools and their employees even be so concerned about the culture and values might be "other" than that of the community which they grow up in? That community pays for the education of "it's Children". Unless there is some concern that the values of the community does not agree to yours? A parent, yes, can have greater influence when children are young and their exposure to community is limited. But as they grow, that exposure also grows. Why are you concerned about their culture or values these children are exposed to in the wider community?

BCP1928 said:
You, as a community member, aren't powerless in this even if you don't have kids in school yourself.

The community is not powerless either in a persons life. We grow up in a community that does influence us to culture and value. So, I have to wonder at your concern about that? Just educate our children, and don't concern yourself so much about the community culture and values, because if we do know one thing, a parents influence wanes, and their friends become influential, which in turn is also a part of the culture of the community. I do wonder at your thinking, the why of it, and the concern over that community's influence?

BCP1928 · Mar 17, 2024

ralliann said:
The 3 r's used to be a foundational issue that is what we want. If those are a minor issue for you, we would like a choice for those things to be first and foremost in their School.

Believe it or not, that's what everybody wants, left, right and center. The public schools are failing, no doubt, but for concrete correctible reasons and not because kids are sitting around all day learning CRT and how to be LGBT. You can bail if you want, but it won't fix the problem for the rest of the kids--and some of the problems will follow you anyway.

ralliann · Mar 17, 2024

BCP1928 said:
Believe it or not, that's what everybody wants, left, right and center. The public schools are failing, no doubt, but for concrete correctible reasons and not because kids are sitting around all day learning CRT and how to be LGBT. You can bail if you want, but it won't fix the problem for the rest of the kids--and some of the problems will follow you anyway.

Well, for the rest of the kids they can leave too. Why shouldn't they if it won't be fixed.
Then, who cares about how much time is spent on what. We care about the basics being met. You are the ones concerned about the rest of it.

rambot · Mar 17, 2024

ralliann said:
Here we go. Did I say that? Nope. Ignoring the issues. How can parents deal with people who deny the issues?

But which of your concerns are real and which are hyperbolic nonsense? I am curious about a specific and exhaustive list of concerns that are exclusive to public schools

"Lgbtq indoctrination..." is nonsense.

A drop in quality of writing is not (though I understand this has happenned in rhe private system too). A lot of educators and admin bought into a teaching style that limited the rdirect instruction of phonics in reading. Sounds weird but data was quite convincing for a while. Recently there's been a lot of teachers fighting back against it and thr main college group where this work was based recently shut their program.

ralliann · Mar 17, 2024

rambot said:
But which of your concerns are real and which are hyperbolic nonsense? I am curious about a specific and exhaustive list of concerns that are exclusive to public schools

"Lgbtq indoctrination..." is nonsense.

A drop in quality of writing is not (though I understand this has happenned in rhe private system too). A lot of educators and admin bought into a teaching style that limited the rdirect instruction of phonics in reading. Sounds weird but data was quite convincing for a while. Recently there's been a lot of teachers fighting back against it and thr main college group where this work was based recently shut their program.

As of now? Just being honest. My concern is attitude. Honestly about parents, about kids, your role and job, parents role and job. How that may be connected to violence in schools (although many are not) and low academic success. the disdain. That is not good for kids, they see it and know it and feel it. Parents certainly do....

I taught my kid phonics before he even was in school. He watched his older siblings, and loved books and asked me. So he had phonics before he entered school. Thank goodness he was that interested, I had no idea what they were doing in that area.

KCfromNC · Mar 19, 2024

eleos1954 said:
The public schools have become dangerous places and are teaching things many parents don't agree with ... parents should not be held captive to any school system ... they should have a choice in regard to where their childs education takes place.

They do - they can either take advantage of the public education offered up to everyone or not. But complaining that the free education offered up isn't catering to their particular political ideology seems kinda whiny.

dogs4thewin · Mar 19, 2024

Fantine said:
You fail to mention the disaster this is for small Texas towns, some of whom have complained bitterly.

No one is opening charter schools or private schools in rural areas.

In the meantime, the cost of giving tuition reimbursement to children in more populated areas (95% of whom were already attending private school and were able to pay the tuition without subsidies--according to national stats) means that public schools face cuts in funding.

So what are the children in rural areas to do? Public schools already underfunded. Public school teachers underpaid--and hard to replace.

In Red States, the Bill for School Voucher Bait-and-Switch Is Coming Due

For GOP lawmakers who view public education as a quasi-socialist project, the gaping hole in state budgets left by subsidizing private school tuition is a feature, not a bug.

www.thenation.com

State budgets are collapsing under the burden--and the rest of us will be caught with tax increases, or reductions in programs we need.

I know here in GA it failed on the ballot ( I was not part of the reason). The law makers are trying to pass a bill it cleared one ( cannot remember if it is the house or senate. Now whether or not Kemp will sign it if it were to make it to his desk I do not know. (He is known for giving certain school employees raises by certain I mean that such people have to be certificated. What I also do not know if passed in any counties and just failed on the state level ( we have 159 of them). I know that a rural county close to here has a charter school that has a wait list because the "regular" public school is rough and has been known for being rough for quite a while. That same county also has a private school that has been standing for over fifty years (Now how the school is still there I am not sure as it is VERY small, but it is there nonetheless.

Moreover, the rural county that I am in does not have any private or charter schools, HOWEVER they do allow non-residents to pay to attend the public school ( a cheaper rate than a private school would ( provided that the parents provide transportation to get to and from school. I do not know how many out of county students attend the district.

dogs4thewin · Mar 19, 2024

Vambram said:
In far too many cities and school districts, it is a fact that students in public schools don't get as good as an education as they ought to be doing. Parents should have the right, and the ability, to place their children in higher quality schools if they desire to do so.

If I could winner that comment more than once I would.

dogs4thewin · Mar 19, 2024

BCP1928 said:
Which the voters of Texas could fix if they wanted.

Right. What the voters of Texas want is not decent public schools for all, but a two-tier education system.

The trouble with claiming that they WANT a two-tier system is that really we already have one not all districts are equal since schools are funded mostly by property taxes wealthier areas TEND to have better schools. Moreover, because people in wealthier areas are more likely to be able to support the school with disposable income and otherwise (more likely to be able to get off work for example to attend events and meet with teachers that helps as well with the quality of education as well.

dogs4thewin · Mar 19, 2024

comana said:
There are plenty of alternatives. Public schools are provided for every child with no upfront cost. Parents have other choices but will likely need to pay. Vouchers take from from what is offered to every child so that the few can benefit.

If the vouchers can be used by anyone (or at least if everyone is free to APPLY then how can it just benefit a few as anyone who chooses to do so can apply for a voucher choosing to do so is then on the parent.

ralliann · Mar 19, 2024

KCfromNC said:
They do - they can either take advantage of the public education offered up to everyone or not. But complaining that the free education offered up isn't catering to their particular political ideology seems kinda whiny.

Free so take it? Don't be insulting. Even if free, (wasn't a bald face lie, school choice will take our tax money to follow the child), But nobody takes whatever is really free no matter what it is...

dogs4thewin · Mar 19, 2024

ralliann said:
I hope they get rid of these anti choice politicians. We need our kids educated, leave the social engineering out....

Except that A the voters put them in there and B no matter what you do people with money have an advantage. Does not make it fair, but it is life.

A personal example and my family is far from rich, but I was redshirted before starting school. My late father admitted that this was in part due to them being unsure how I would preform when I was age eligible ( I have CP) along with other reasons. Now my parents were blessed enough to be able to AFFORD father working while mother stayed home until my younger sister started school ( and even then mother worked part-time). As a result of this feeling they redshirted me. Now, parents who cannot afford that and have that same feeling are forced to send their kids to school where they may or may not preform more poorly and may or may not end up being held back later anyway .

dogs4thewin · Mar 19, 2024

KCfromNC said:
They do - they can either take advantage of the public education offered up to everyone or not. But complaining that the free education offered up isn't catering to their particular political ideology seems kinda whiny.

What if they feel that that free education is not a good education and/or not what is best for their particular children? Different children preform best in different settings. That is different than saying I do not agree with what is taught (although oftentimes that is a reason that parents have a problem with the public school system, but it is not always the only one.

ralliann · Mar 19, 2024

dogs4thewin said:
What if they feel that that free education is not a good education and/or not what is best for their particular children?

They ask or demand their money back ( it is a lie it is free) and allow it to follow the child, to get what we pay for.

dogs4thewin said:
Different children preform best in different settings. That is different than saying I do not agree with what is taught (although oftentimes that is a reason that parents have a problem with the public school system, but it is not always the only one.

School choice. It is our money...

Hans Blaster · Mar 19, 2024

ralliann said:
School choice. It is our money...

No it ain't. Taxpayers pay money to the district (or other entity) to provide a public service (education). The tax money is the district's to spend, not yours. It is not generally refundable if you do not have a student in the supported schools. I have payed property and sales taxes ever since I moved here to support the local public schools. I can not get my money back (any of it) because I do not have any children in the school and they would laugh at me if I tried.

comana · Mar 19, 2024

dogs4thewin said:
If the vouchers can be used by anyone (or at least if everyone is free to APPLY then how can it just benefit a few as anyone who chooses to do so can apply for a voucher choosing to do so is then on the parent.

Vouchers are not going to pay a full private tuition and there is only so many spaces per school (private or charter) anyway. The assumption that all students can just “purchase” a space at a different school is not feasible. Parents with more money can fill the gap between the voucher and private tuition. They are also freer to transport their children outside of walking or bus distance. Students left to the local public schools because they don’t have another option will be in schools that are increasingly underfunded as vouchers drain needed funds.

ralliann · Mar 19, 2024

comana said:
Vouchers are not going to pay a full private tuition and there is only so many spaces per school (private or charter) anyway.

School choice should be funded no different than public. Education standards in academics being the focus for every school.

comana said:
The assumption that all students can just “purchase” a space at a different school is not feasible.

Why not? If school was an idea to standards of academics, why not. A novel idea huh. Simply because our modern education system has moved far beyond that, should not matter at all. Let's go back to what schools were for in the first place.

comana said:
Parents with more money can fill the gap between the voucher and private tuition.

The gap would be any school that desires to teach more than just the basics, may be more expensive for non essential learning.

comana said:
They are also freer to transport their children outside of walking or bus distance. Students left to the local public schools because they don’t have another option will be in schools that are increasingly underfunded as vouchers drain needed funds.

Again, the essentials, any extras would be the gap. Just getting kids out of the system of social engineering, academic failure etc. Kids getting the essential academics they need

iluvatar5150 · Mar 19, 2024

ralliann said:
School choice should be funded no different than public.

Let's say that the value of the vouchers are same amount as would be spent on a student at a public school. My city's public school system spends about $22,000 per student. Private high schools (of which there are several) charge $30-40,000. Where does the extra $8-18,000 come from?

ralliann said:
Why not? If school was an idea to standards of academics, why not.

They can't just purchase seats, because there aren't enough seats to go around. Unless new schools are built, private school capacity would be far outstripped by the demand.

ralliann said:
The gap would be any school that desires to teach more than just the basics, may be more expensive for non essential learning.

I'm skeptical you have any idea where the costs of schooling come from. It's primarily labor related to teaching. You can't just shave off huge chunks of the expenses without severely curtailing instruction.

ralliann · Mar 19, 2024

iluvatar5150 said:
Let's say that the value of the vouchers are same amount as would be spent on a student at a public school. My city's public school system spends about $22,000 per student. Private high schools (of which there are several) charge $30-40,000. Where does the extra $8-18,000 come from?

I sent two of my children to private Christian school for two years of so, one of the two did not attend public until 4th grade. It was nowhere near that. My daughter sends two children to the same School. She pays 1200 each tops. She is now considering another Christian school nearer to her That is less than the one she now pays. Plus if she pays it up front she gets a significant discount. That is what I know......She would love to have her 22,000 dollars back she has paid for other people's children which are not nearly up to the academic success she has to pay for her own children. Not only does she have to pay to properly educate her own kids, she has to pay for an education system that if failing in educating kids.

iluvatar5150 said:
They can't just purchase seats, because there aren't enough seats to go around. Unless new schools are built, private school capacity would be far outstripped by the demand.

If everyone had school choice, spaces previously "public" would become emptied in equal amounts of those that choose other. Why would previously "Public" building space remain empty being off limits? Think about that. It is simply space for education. To make it simple, A "public" school with space for 1000 students, 800 leave to school choice, why would the building be used for 200 students? Let those 200 students move to a smaller location, as well as the transportation do the same? Why would one keep a building that is wasted space? Leave transportation unused? It could very well come to this scenario...

iluvatar5150 said:
I'm skeptical you have any idea where the costs of schooling come from. It's primarily labor related to teaching. You can't just shave off huge chunks of the expenses without severely curtailing instruction.

Please see my personal experiences above. And this kind of demeaning disrespectful attitude, and inability to acknowledge your own failures, and ideas about education, is causing all this stuff in the first place. You think if this grabs hold, those spaces are not going to empty to get away from "YOU"? Do you think YOU are going to be allowed to stubbornly sit in a building 2/3 empty in your stubbornness in some right to things parents have said you do not have? This is why this is happening in the first place. Just educate our kids, we will raise them. How long do you think you can behave this way before it is not a request? That has been treated with mockery and disdain. They are our kids not yours. Don't sit here and tell me I am stuck with you, and what you do with our kids. WE DON'T HAVE TO BE.....We pay for those spaces. We are not ADDING CHILDREN WE ARE MOVING CHILDREN...

iluvatar5150 · Mar 19, 2024

ralliann said:
I sent two of my children to private Christian school for two years of so, one of the two did not attend public until 4th grade. It was nowhere near that. My daughter sends two children to the same School. She pays 1200 each tops. She is now considering another Christian school nearer to her That is less than the one she now pays. Plus if she pays it up front she gets a significant discount. That is what I know......

In that case, somebody is heavily subsidizing her tuition - maybe the church that runs the school, maybe some benefactors. If each classroom has one teacher and 30 kids (which is high, especially in elementary), then that would cover a gross salary of $36k/yr per teacher, assuming facilities, administration, and other expenses were all free.

Nobody is providing anything for that little. I can barely hire a high schooler to babysit a sleeping kid for $18/hr. Whatever the cost to run that school is, it's far, far higher than $1200/kid. I attended small religious schools from grades 1-12 college (i.e. longer than your kids and grandkids have) and I'm fairly sure my tuition bills were higher than that 30 years ago.

If everyone had school choice, spaces previously "public" would become emptied in equal amounts of those that choose other. Why would previously "Public" building space remain empty being off limits? Think about that. It is simply space for education.

What?

The issue is that there isn't enough capacity in the private schools to handle the demand of people who wish to leave the public schools. Nobody in this thread is talking about what to do with surplus public school space after it's already emptied out, because it's mostly irrelevant to this discussion. I have no idea why you brought it up.

To make it simple, A "public" school with space for 1000 students, 800 leave to school choice, why would the building be used for 200 students? Let those 200 students move to a smaller location, as well as the transportation do the same? Why would one keep a building that is wasted space? Leave transportation unused? It could very well come to this scenario...

That has nothing to do with anything.

Please see my personal experiences above. And this kind of demeaning disrespectful attitude, and inability to acknowledge your own failures,

You tried to make an argument about educational expenses while failing to realize that your $1200/kid tuition bill is heavily subsidized and doesn't remotely cover the full cost of education. You tried to make an argument about private school capacity by talking about what to do with excess public school space. But go ahead and tell me about my own failures.

School Choice’s Texas-Size Victory

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