Every branch IN CHRIST that does not bear fruit the Father takes away

I wonder if the 7 churches in Revelation might be branches.

No believer can lose or have The Holy Spirit taken away and the verses you use do not say this.

tonychanyt said:

ESV, 1 John 4:


I interpret the Spirit more specifically as the Paraclete. The Paraclete dwells and abides in believers. Before John wrote that verse, Jesus spoke of the Paraclete in John 14:
A few verses later, he spoke on the concept of abiding in John 15:
That's a grave warning to those in Christ who have the Paraclete.
It is a mutual relationship on our part and on Jesus' part.
Again, the grave warning: Believers who have the Paraclete beware. But there is good news:

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One cannot lose the Holy Spirit. Salvation is eternal.

tonychanyt said:

Believers, demonstrate that you are Jesus' disciples.
Our joy is in abiding in Jesus and growing into mature faith by keeping his commandments.
Warning! You can lose the nascent Paraclete in you if you do not abide in Jesus.

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Believers are Not Disciples. Disciples are above and beyond. They give up Everything to follow Jesus.
You cannot lose it. You cannot undo God's miracle. You cannot

tonychanyt said:

If you abide, you will obey Jesus' commandments.
If you obey, your spirit will grow.
If you grow, you will produce fruit.
If you produce fruit, you have demonstrated that the Paraclete abides in you.

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Peace and Blessings

Eternal Salvation.

We did not find the Holy Spirit. We can not lose the Holy Spirit/God. He is a gift to believers from Jesus/God.

[Jhn 14:16-21 KJV] 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. 18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I [am] in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

We have no power of what God has done.
[Dan 4:35 KJV] 35 And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

[1Co 12:3-7 KJV] 3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

[Jhn 14:26 KJV] 26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

[Act 1:4-8 KJV] 4 And, being assembled together with [them], commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, [saith he], ye have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

[Heb 2:4 KJV] 4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

If you think you can lose eternal salvation, you must believe heaven can be lost to, while there.

Sowing doubt to Eternal Salvation is not wise. You cause people to stumble.

[Heb 5:9 KJV] 9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
[2Ti 2:10 KJV] 10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

Peace and Blessings

tonychanyt said:

See Will the Paraclete vacate his dwelling in a believer? and follow up there

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Per you

"Does this mean that we are free to sin?
No, I am not asserting unconditional eternal security. If the Paraclete dwells in you, you abide in Jesus."

You are teaching, from what I see, that if we do not sin, we will not lose the Holy Spirit.
BUT, if we sin, we lose the Holy Spirit and thus Salvation.

This is not true. That or you need to come out and speak very clearly and plainly around your concept.

The whole world is affected by the Holy Spirit. No one can easily lose the Holy Spirit. And only those not born again, can silence the Holy Spirit. But cannot fully 100% remove Him from their life.

Peace and Blessings

tonychanyt said:

Can you quote my words where I asserted that?

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Thank you, but I do not see it as my responsibility to clear up your statements.

Peace and Blessings

tonychanyt said:

You made a claim and it is my responsibility to clear up your claim? Wow, that's a new one.


Can you quote my words where I asserted that? This is the 2nd time I have asked.

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I did it before. Here it is again.

"Does this mean that we are free to sin?
No, I am not asserting unconditional eternal security. If the Paraclete dwells in you, you abide in Jesus."

You are teaching, from what I see, that if we do not sin, we will not lose the Holy Spirit.
BUT, if we sin, we lose the Holy Spirit and thus Salvation.

You need to clear up your own statements. I can't.

tonychanyt said:

P1 = If a person commits one sin, he does not abide in Jesus.

P1 is false.

Does this clear things up for you?

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What is clear is this.

Everyone sins.
Those Born from Above, have the Holy Spirit, are Sealed by God, are adopted into the family, made righteous before the Father by the Son, and though they will sin, cannot lose Eternal Salvation or the Holy Spirit.

Peace and Blessings

Regarding John 15:1-2, you say:

tonychanyt said:

That's a grave warning to those in Christ who have the Paraclete.

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I think you may be asking too much of the vineyard imagery. The point of the metaphor is that genuine Christians are characterized by the fact that they bear fruit. This does not require correlating the language of 'in me' with the notion of actually having the Paraclete. Rather, there's a necessary limitation imposed on the language in order for the metaphor to communicate its point:

Note the play on words between αἴρει ('remove') and καθαίρει ('prune'). Καθαίρει is not a viticultural term. It's more closely related to the idea of cleansing. The use of the verb is therefore meant intentionally to connect the metaphor to the related adjective καθαρός ('clean') in the next verse, and likewise recall the use of that same term in John 13:10, which was applied to all the disciples except Judas. The point is that the branches 'removed' are individuals who are not καθαρός, i.e., individuals who are like Judas -- not those who are 'in' Christ in terms of having actually received the abiding Paraclete (an abiding that appears to be inseparably tied to the redemptive work of Christ in putting away sin; see John 16:7), but rather 'in' Christ in the sense of having experienced some form of communion with him (e.g., church membership, outward profession of faith, genuinely convincing others and perhaps even themselves that they believed), yet they were never genuine disciples. This would be consistent with the distinction depicted elsewhere between those connected with Jesus in some outward sense who nevertheless had never experienced the transforming life of Christ (e.g., John 8:31ff.; 1 John 2:19; 2 John 9). It is also very similar to Paul's notion of the body of Christ, a notion that likewise distinguishes between union with Christ and many other aspects of being 'in' him (such as close association, among many others), all of which use the same language of ἐν Χριστῷ.

If Jesus had intended to address the theological question of whether believers can lose the Paraclete, it would have been more logical to center the metaphor around the dead branches, not the living ones, and keeping in line with the above distinction, that metaphor might have drawn a distinction between the living branches of a vine and the dead branches of another tree. Given the actual intent of stressing the necessity of fruitfulness, however, the metaphor imposes certain linguistic requirements to effectively communicate the message. It wouldn't align with Jesus' message to discuss removing the dead branches of another tree (especially since these branches are closely associated with Christ in an outward sense), even if that might present a more theologically accurate image when it comes to the concept of true abiding. As the emphasis of the message lies on fruitfulness, and cultivating fruit is the point of a vineyard, the focus remains on cultivating that vine, thus necessitating a comparison in the vine metaphor between fruit-bearing and non-fruit-bearing branches. 'In me' need not, therefore, refer only to true believers who have the Paraclete.

tonychanyt said:

Warning! You can lose the nascent Paraclete in you if you do not abide in Jesus.

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What do you mean by the "nascent" Paraclete?

This section of the Bible is talking about FALSE Christians, those who claim to be Christians but are not, they are deceivers. What these people are doing are acting like believers but do not know Christ. So, Christ will clean the vine of the false Christians, this all goes back to the threshing of the weeds out of the wheat, it's all the same thing, it is also all the same thing when Christ cursed the fig tree because it had no fruit, and later it was found to have withered up and died.

As we know a lot of people go to church, but not all people that go to church are true believers, they are going either by tradition or thinking that in case they are wrong about there being no God, they have an insurance policy that they went to church, no, it doesn't work that way, those people are thus not Christians and do not bear fruit of that. Some might declare by baptism they are Christians, but they are not because they bore no fruit since then, again, baptism being used as an insurance policy.

So what are those fruits spoken of then? They are the fruit of the spirit, according to Galations chapter 5 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control, plus the operation of the gifts of the spirit within the person as stated in 1 Cor, 12:8: 8-11 "One person is given the gift of teaching words of wisdom. Another person is given the gift of teaching what he has learned and knows. These gifts are by the same Holy Spirit. 9 One person receives the gift of faith. Another person receives the gifts of healing. These gifts are given by the same Holy Spirit. 10 One person is given the gift of doing powerful works. Another person is given the gift of speaking God’s Word. Another person is given the gift of telling the difference between the Holy Spirit and false spirits. Another person is given the gift of speaking in special sounds. Another person is given the gift of telling what these special sounds mean. 11 But it is the same Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, who does all these things." He gives to each person as He wants to give. So, our spiritual gifts that we have are evidence of our fruit.

But now we need to go further into John 15, a bit down the road in verses 27-30 which brings up the same thing we saw in 1 Cor: Jn 15:27: "You are all a part of the body of Christ. 28 God has chosen different ones in the church to do His work. First, there are missionaries. Second, there are preachers or those who speak for God. And third, there are teachers. He has also chosen those who do powerful works and those who have the gifts of healing. And He has chosen those who help others who are in need and those who are able to lead others in work and those who speak in special sounds. 29 Are they all missionaries? No. Are they all preachers or those who speak for God? No. Do they all do powerful works? No. 30 Do they all have the gifts of healing? No. Do they all speak in special sounds? No. Are they all able to tell what the special sounds mean? No. 31 But from your heart you should want the best gifts. Now I will show you even a better way."

Here we see that true believers will desire in their hearts to have the best gifts, we may not get the best ones, I don't have the gift of healing, but I have desired it for years, for whatever reason I don't have that gift, God saw that it was best that I don't, however, on rare occasions, I have prayed for someone and they were later healed, not sure why it works in rare spurts, people can make all kinds of assumptions about that but they would be wrong. But God has given me words of knowledge in church, and while speaking to people one on one, God has also allowed me to help kids in sex trafficking to get out of that messed up world, and allowed me to face danger in doing so without fear, and with Gods help and grace has protected me over the years doing it, I think that is a gift He has given me.

God sees the heart of each person. When Jesus was on the cross the one criminal on his left was cursing Him and asking Him to do all sorts of stuff that Jesus simply was not going to do, that man represented satan, and those curses were basically the same ones Jesus faced earlier by temptation. But the other criminal on Jesus's right did none of those things, instead told Jesus he believed who He said He was, and that would He remember him in heaven, and Jesus said that he would be with Him in Paradise that day. Here we have a criminal who had no gifts, no fruit...except did he have some fruit? Yes, he did, his fruit was his belief in Jesus, that was his fruit, and Jesus knew that from the condition of his heart on the cross. The other interesting thing here about this story is that no one went rushing up to the criminal and baptized him in water, or forced him to blabber in tongues, thus failure to do so resulted in him going to hell...NOT, because Jesus said that he would be with Him in paradise!

I'm not one for theological arguing because it profits no one, but I thought in this case a little teaching might shed some light on the subject even though it might go against long-held religious beliefs, so I can't sit here and get into a rolling argument, take what I said for whatever worth you find in it, but I'm not going to get into any arguing.

tonychanyt said:

Are they in Christ?

Every branch IN CHRIST that does not bear fruit the Father takes away.

Do you know any other verse that talks about false Christians in Christ?

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Just as I said they are false Christians, how difficult is that to understand? They are not Christians whatsoever, they pretend to be, understand? And that is why you do not understand every branch in Christ, a true branch of Christs bears fruit as I have said, therefore the bad branch, the false branch, gets cut off.