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Should the church be a church of saints only?
- Thread starter Xeno.of.athens
- Start date
It's a modern error to think that Paul's 1st century use of the term "saints" referred to people who didn't continue to need his admonitions to avoid sin.
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Let's assume that it does not mean sinless people, because the saints are called to repentance, and no one repents without having also sinned.
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In Protestant terminology it may be better worded as "Do you believe that the church must be a church of the saved only and no person thought to be unsaved should be permitted as a member?"
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Depending on ones theology, saints can be those who have recieved , after death, a Papel decree. The other type of saint is everyone in the Body of Christ. Those who have been set apart and sealed by His Holy Spirit. Blessings.
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Paleouss
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Not sure which direction you want to go with this question. So I'll just give my protestant thoughts.
A) Saints are those in the body of Christ.
B) All those who go to church are sinners.
B) There are some that go to church that are not saved.
C) Some that do not go to church are saved (brings up another issue).
A) Saints are those in the body of Christ.
B) All those who go to church are sinners.
B) There are some that go to church that are not saved.
C) Some that do not go to church are saved (brings up another issue).
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JulieB67
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This is up to the Lord. He's the one that adds to the church, not man. He's the one that knows who has come to repentance or not. If a person does not believe in Christ/have not come to repentance, they naturally would not be a member of the church.
People need to stop thinking of the church as an "organization" -something you have to join to become a member of. God decides the membership. It's a community of saints/believers. And you can assemble yourselves "anywhere" for gatherings.
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All we can know are those who claim to be saved and seem to act like they are saved.
If a person does not claim to be saved (defined here as claiming Jesus as savior before the congregation), then why would he be a member of the congregation? I guess there might be someone who says, "I don't believe in Jesus, but I want to be listed on the roll as a member," but I've never heard an argument that such people should be permitted as members, i.e., that we have a moral obligation to put people who disbelief in Jesus as their savior on the membership roll.
Have you heard such an argument?
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Yes, but on a congregation-by-congregation basis, it becomes necessary. Think of what the 1st century congregations were to their members: See Mark 10, Acts 2, Acts 4. People who declared Jesus as their Lord were nearly always rejected to some extent by their former social networks and nets. They literally gave up their physical means of support, their families, their lives to follow Jesus. The congregation became the means by which they still had food to eat and a place to live.
Obey your spiritual leaders, and do what they say. Their work is to watch over your souls, and they are accountable to God. Give them reason to do this with joy and not with sorrow. That would certainly not be for your benefit. -- Hebrews 13:17
In that setting, the congregation certainly was something to join and become a member of. As one pastor put it to me (one who was very conscious of his membership roll), "I have to know who Jesus is holding me accountable for. I have to know who to check on, who to visit, who to inquire about. I can't afford to let someone Jesus has placed into my congregation slip through the cracks." This was a pastor who was diligent about keeping a list of widows and single mothers...the only pastor I've met who was.
This is real stuff.
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JulieB67
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That's another thing altogether. I'm strictly talking about being a member of "the church" -the many membered body of Christ. Not a physical church/organization. And yes, the early churches certainly banded together and helped one another. And a church assembly/gathering is a good thing if one is holding to the teachings/traditions brought on by Christ/disciples/Apostles.
But one is either believer meaning you are a member, or a non believer so you could therefore are naturally not be a member. As it's stated, it's the Lord that adds to the church, not man. He's the heart knower. So even if a non believer joined a physical organization they still would not be a member of the church. They might be a member of that organization, but not "the church".
Acts 2:47 "Praising God, and having favour with all people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."
Romans 16:5 "Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my well beloved Epaenetus , who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ."
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I am glad you clarified.
Paul seems to be referring to the Jewish Christs as "Saints" and the Gentiles as "faithful", believers, brothers, there is the conjunction "and" between these descriptions which normally means separate groups.
"The Church" probably means just the "saved", I would say there might be little children and others, who have not sinned yet to be in a safe condition not needing to be saved.
God knows who is saved and who is not saved, so I can't say anything about an individual.
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RandyPNW
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This is another great question. In history, entire countries have converted to Christianity, following a Christian political leadership and their embrace of the Christian Church. In that case, most were viewed as Christians and welcomed into Church.
Obviously, over time with this practice it becomes clear that citizenship in a Christian country is not synonymous with true Christianity. As "nominal Christians" begin to evidence blatant sin, it becomes the responsibility of the elders of the local church to excommunicate them.
As former Christian states have apostacized and compromised their Christianity, becoming largely Christian in form only or not at all, churches have become either liberal or conservative. Liberal churches blur the lines between sainthood and sinner, and really cease to be Christian churches in all but name. You would not expect there to be much excommunication there.
On the other hand, conservative churches tend to retain the rule that sinners should not be allowed to propagate their sinful beliefs and lifestyles within the church--they should be excommunicated. Obviously, without a broader citizenry claiming to be Christian these local churches tend to be less trafficked, and are peopled not by nominal Christian citizenry but rather by those who've had a genuine experience with Christ or are raised up in Christian families.
Can sinners enter into a church? For sure! People should come, however, not to propagate sinful beliefs and practices, but rather, to question if Christ is for them. Christ came to save sinners. And all of us have had to deal with Sin in our lives. We need to show grace.
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ViaCrucis
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From a Lutheran perspective that wouldn't make any sense. The Church, this side of heaven, only has sinners--who are also saints. Simul iustus et peccator.
-CryptoLutheran
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I think that maybe it has saints and sinners in it, some sinner who will never become saints.
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ViaCrucis
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There will be a time of separating wheat and tares/sheep and goats. The two coexist now within the same institution of the Church.
But as it pertains to the wheat, we are still sinners. We are sinner-saints.
Were this not the case, then we would already have attained glorious perfection and all the preaching of caution and warning against apostasy in the Bible would make no sense. Paul would not be able to say "Not that I have already attained it or am already perfect, but I press on to make it my own, because Christ Jesus has made me His own" (Philippians 3:12)
But the Scriptures are clear, and Church practice has always acknowledged, that we who believe are caught in the struggle between the old man who must perish and die; and the new man created in Christ. That the old man must die and continue to die; and the new man sustained, nourished, and alive.
Otherwise there would be no need for repentance, for confession, or for enduring in faith to the end.
It is because we are both saints and sinners, the old man and the new man simultaneously present, that we--in this life--must ever trust in Christ, pressing forward toward the goal, our gaze ever toward Christ "the Author and Perfecter of our faith", running the race, fighting the good fight.
That we should ever drown the old man in repentance while remembering our baptism--by which we died to the elementary powers of this world, having received a circumcision made without hands from Christ (Colossians 2:8-15) having been delivered from darkness to His light (Colossians 1:13-14)
And at all times rely on Christ, that the new man might live,
"I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me." - Galatians 2:20
That in living or dying, Christ is everything--Philippians 1:21.
-CryptoLutheran
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The idea that the church is, or at least ought to use discipline to attempt to make the church consist of saints only, is the ancient heresy of Donatism.
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