The Rapture will happen in the middle of the Tribulation

NOPE .... It happens before

sandman said:

NOPE .... It happens before

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Nope it doesn't.

Eprom said:

Those who hold the pre-tribulation rapture position, usually site 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" But this verse cannot possibly refer to Christians suffering here on earth, because Christians have been persecuted since the first days of the church. We find the timing of the Rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 where the Angel harvests the earth - right in the middle of the tribulation, and just before the time of Jacob's Trouble. This timing is affirmed by two passages where we see saints pulled out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:13-15 and Revelation 20:4.

We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

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You have written what REAL Pre-tribulationial do not believe and I am one those so-called , misinformed .and I never use 1 Thess 5:9 !!

#1 There is NO Greek word for RAPTURE in the bible .

# 2 I uses 2 Thess 2:1 , Now we ask you brethren , on account of the COMMING // PARAOUSIA of our Lord Jesus Christ , even our GATHERING TOGETHER unto Him .

#3 Then there is 1 Thess 4:13--18 is another PROOF !!

dan p

Eprom said:

Those who hold the pre-tribulation rapture position, usually site 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" But this verse cannot possibly refer to Christians suffering here on earth, because Christians have been persecuted since the first days of the church. We find the timing of the Rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 where the Angel harvests the earth - right in the middle of the tribulation, and just before the time of Jacob's Trouble. This timing is affirmed by two passages where we see saints pulled out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:13-15 and Revelation 20:4.

We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

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I am surprised that you did NOT ask about 2 Then 2:3 where the translation FALLING AWAY // APOSTASIA means ??

dan p

Eprom said:

Hi Dan - we are not disputing that there is a rapture . . . the question is, when does it happen? Neither one of the verses you have cited here, in the least way, suggests that the rapture happens before the tribulation.

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You also know that I at this time , I believe in a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL , COMING // PAROURIA and How can you explain 1 Thess 13-18 ?? Your thoughts PLEASE !!

Here is another one for your consideration for you in 2 Thess 2:3 and your thoughts on a BAD translation ( EXCEPT THE FALLING AWAY // APOSTASIA REFFERING ) TOO ?

And is also used in Acts 21:21 the Greek word APOSTASIA !!

dan p

Bobber said:

Nope it doesn't.

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There are several things I could post ...but if you adhere to what is written in these verses ....it is not necessary as the verses clearly distinguish between the two groups of people.

Mentally we tend to split events with the division of chapters, but this continues on in context from 4:18.

1Th 5:1 continues as Paul is speaking to the brethren….the pronouns for the brethren (born again believers) are > us, we, brethren, ye, you, & yourselves …from 5:1 to 5:11.

They & Them refer to children of darkness and night … referencing the Day of the Lord or the Lord’s day which always refers to the Great Tribulation of the book of Revelation.

(Note: In verse 12 the subject changes, and them becomes us “the brethren”.)



1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that “the day of the Lord” so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that "that day" should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath "not" appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Just be ready...

No One Knows the Day or Hour​

36 “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, but My Father only. 37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left. 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

The Faithful Servant and the Evil Servant​

45 “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? 46 Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. 47 Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ 49 and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, 50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, 51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Personally, I'm not overly concerned when, I'm looking forward to it.

The operable words in scripture that are often tossed about are, "Not appointed unto wrath," refers to God's wrath and of course that would be neither fun nor fair. God is Just, merciful and loves His children. If scripture states, "how shall they hear without a preacher." why would God remove every believer from earth? The persecution of believers is an angry Satan, he knows time is wrapping up and hurriedly seeking to destroy the faith of said believers. Are we to believe that after pre-trib and only the lost remain, our God of Love can torment then for kicks, then judge them and get on with the real suffering of the lake of fire? No. Some will be saved during Satan's brief, bitter, angry hatred of truth and righteousness unfurls in unholiness.

Scripture tells us not to fear he who can destroy the body. The martyrs of old are spoken of as an example for us in Hebrews. are we to tell our Father, 'Get me outta here man, I don't care about those dudes.' No, Like Stephen, Like Paul, 'count it all joy.'

Be prepared to stand and be counted. "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us." Romans 8:18

2 Timothy 2:3-4​

3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

sandman said:

There are several things I could post ...but if you adhere to what is written in these verses ....it is not necessary as the verses clearly distinguish between the two groups of people.

Mentally we tend to split events with the division of chapters, but this continues on in context from 4:18.

1Th 5:1 continues as Paul is speaking to the brethren….the pronouns for the brethren (born again believers) are > us, we, brethren, ye, you, & yourselves …from 5:1 to 5:11.

They & Them refer to children of darkness and night … referencing the Day of the Lord or the Lord’s day which always refers to the Great Tribulation of the book of Revelation.

(Note: In verse 12 the subject changes, and them becomes us “the brethren”.)



1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that “the day of the Lord” so cometh as a thief in the night.

1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.


1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that "that day" should overtake you as a thief.

1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1Th 5:9 For God hath "not" appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

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Your best verse is 1 Thess 5:9 .

#1 The BRETHREN // ADEIPHOS does not mean BORN AGAIN BELIEVER and means follow believers in the Greek present tense , ACTIVE VOICE , and in the PLURAL .

#2 1 Thess 5:9 says , God // THEOS is in the Greek NOINATIVE CASE , in the SINGULAR

#2 HATH // TITEMI ,in the AORIST TENSE , MIDDLE VOICE , and in the INDICATIVE MOOD , in the SINGULAR

#3 NOT // OV is a DISUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and it means will never HAPPEN

#4 What HAPPENS , be APPOINTED // TITHEMI in the AORIST TENSE , MIDDLE VOICE , and in the INICATIVE MOOD , in the SINGULAR .

#5 US // HEMAS , is a PERSONAL POSSESSIVE PRONOUN , in the ACCUSATIVE CASE , means we are limited , in the PLURAL.

#6 TO WRATH // ORGE is in the Greek , ACCUSATIVE CASE , in the SINGULAR .

#7 OBTAIN // PERIPOIESIS in the ACCUSATIVE CASE in the SINGULAR .

#8SALVATION // SOTENA . in the GENTIVE CASE , in the SINGULAR .

#9 OUR LORD // KYRIOS , in the GENITIVE CASE , in the PLURAL .

#10 JESUS // in the GENITIVE CASE and in the SINGULAR .

#11 CHRIST // CHRISTOS same as above ,

In other words WRATH is not going to TOUCH US aswe are in the BODY OF CHRIST .

dan p

Me personally, I am a pan trib. However it comes, whenever it comes it will all pan out in the end

Dan Perez said:

Your best verse is 1 Thess 5:9 .

#1 The BRETHREN // ADEIPHOS does not mean BORN AGAIN BELIEVER and means follow believers in the Greek present tense , ACTIVE VOICE , and in the PLURAL .

#2 1 Thess 5:9 says , God // THEOS is in the Greek NOINATIVE CASE , in the SINGULAR

#2 HATH // TITEMI ,in the AORIST TENSE , MIDDLE VOICE , and in the INDICATIVE MOOD , in the SINGULAR

#3 NOT // OV is a DISUNCATIVE PARTICLE NEGATIVE and it means will never HAPPEN

#4 What HAPPENS , be APPOINTED // TITHEMI in the AORIST TENSE , MIDDLE VOICE , and in the INICATIVE MOOD , in the SINGULAR .

#5 US // HEMAS , is a PERSONAL POSSESSIVE PRONOUN , in the ACCUSATIVE CASE , means we are limited , in the PLURAL.

#6 TO WRATH // ORGE is in the Greek , ACCUSATIVE CASE , in the SINGULAR .

#7 OBTAIN // PERIPOIESIS in the ACCUSATIVE CASE in the SINGULAR .

#8SALVATION // SOTENA . in the GENTIVE CASE , in the SINGULAR .

#9 OUR LORD // KYRIOS , in the GENITIVE CASE , in the PLURAL .

#10 JESUS // in the GENITIVE CASE and in the SINGULAR .

#11 CHRIST // CHRISTOS same as above ,

In other words WRATH is not going to TOUCH US aswe are in the BODY OF CHRIST .

dan p

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It is not translated as born again believers ….but it does mean exactly that.

I probably should have put [born again believer] in brackets rather than parentheses.

Let me explain:

First, the book Thessalonians is written to those who are born again believers in Christ. And the reference to brethren (unless it has the verb pseudo preceding it “false-brethren”) when used in the church epistles (within context) is always referencing those born again, in the family of God, body of Christ.

The term is used biblically in three ways.

As blood relation children of the same parent or parents.
As a descant from common ancestor.
And as a fellow man [neuter gender] to express spiritual relationship as a term used of endearment.



Spirit is thicker than blood.

Dan Perez said:

You also know that I at this time , I believe in a PRE-TRIBULATIONAL , COMING // PAROURIA and How can you explain 1 Thess 13-18 ?? Your thoughts PLEASE !!

Here is another one for your consideration for you in 2 Thess 2:3 and your thoughts on a BAD translation ( EXCEPT THE FALLING AWAY // APOSTASIA REFFERING ) TOO ?

And is also used in Acts 21:21 the Greek word APOSTASIA !!

dan p

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I fail to see where it is that people get so confused about the following scripture:

1 Thes, 1 13-18

Do not worry or be sad about those that have died already, they will not be forgotten or left behind.

Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. 14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. So we understand that part right? God will bring with Jesus those that fallen asleep. Now lets address when He will bring them.

So that none in the church misunderstands and has anxiety about the dead, it is now explained.

Those who are still living when our Lord returns will not go in front of the dead.
The dead in Christ will rise first when Christ returns... When do they rise? When Christ returns.

15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. (This is when the dead in Christ rise.) 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. WHEN THEY HAVE RISIN UP TO MEET CHRIST Then those yet alive at that time will get their turn and so we will be with the Lord forever. 18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

The dead and the living are now caught up together to be with our Lord forever.
It is the same event. The dead in Christ and the living in Christ.

Amen. It's an orderly event. When the dead are in position, all are caught up together to meet our King.

Eprom said:

Those who hold the pre-tribulation rapture position, usually site 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" But this verse cannot possibly refer to Christians suffering here on earth, because Christians have been persecuted since the first days of the church. We find the timing of the Rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 where the Angel harvests the earth - right in the middle of the tribulation, and just before the time of Jacob's Trouble. This timing is affirmed by two passages where we see saints pulled out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:13-15 and Revelation 20:4.

We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

Click to expand...

People take a portion of scripture and build a doctrine. Thes, 5:9 is a perfect example.
First this letter is written to believers, the Church at Thessalonica.
I love this stuff.
Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2 for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and They will not escape.

But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. 6 So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. 8 But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. 9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10 He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11 Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
________________________________________
Hey brothers and sisters you are children of the light, don't be like those sleepers who live in darkness.

Don't be drunks, stay sober. We belong in the daylight.

Put on faith, hope and love.

Verse 9 contrasts the saved and the lost.

You my brothers and sisters are not going to suffer God's wrath that's for those who live in darkness.

You are to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ

He died for us whether we are dead or alive our destiny is life eternal with Him.

Encourage each other and continue to build each other up.

This portion of scripture distinguishes the judgment and final destination of the believer vs the non believer.

Don't worry about death, judgment and the Lake of fire... that is not your fate.

That is the players on the wrong team.
It does not address the timing of the 'Rapture.' It simply state that it is an unknown. Like a thief in the night.

Eprom said:

Those who hold the pre-tribulation rapture position, usually site 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" But this verse cannot possibly refer to Christians suffering here on earth, because Christians have been persecuted since the first days of the church. We find the timing of the Rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 where the Angel harvests the earth - right in the middle of the tribulation, and just before the time of Jacob's Trouble. This timing is affirmed by two passages where we see saints pulled out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:13-15 and Revelation 20:4.

We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

Click to expand...

Most of the book of revelation, including the seven years of tribulation, has nothing to do with the Church. From chapter 4, we won't find the Church mentioned again until chapter 19.

Something happens to the Church between chapter 3 & 4 of revelation. The word 'Church' occurs 19 times in chapters 1-3, then not again until chapter 22. Where did we go? Quite simply, we have been raptured. John gives us a sneak peek at what being caught up looks like when he writes: After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”(4:1)

One moment, John was standing solidly on terra firma and the next he was in presence with God Himself. Chapters 2-3 describe the age of the Church, from chapter 4 it's 'the things which will take place after this.

There are some who really feel that the Church should endure the tribulation, be my guest, I on the other hand will gladly take the first flight out of this world to meet the Groom in the clouds.

A pre-tribulation rapture isn't just a wishful thinking, it's Biblical. Consider the following passages and the preposition 'from'

For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. (1 Thessalonians 1:9-10)

Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. (Revelation 3:10)

The promise of Jesus, the Groom, is that He will deliver His Church from the coming wrath. We will be delivered from the hour of trial which shall come upon the world. This is how God works. He delivered Noah and his family from the judgement of the flood. He delivered Lot and his family from the judgement on Sodom and Gomorrah. And God will deliver the Church from the coming tribulation by rapturing us to meet Jesus in the clouds.

Eprom said:

Those who hold the pre-tribulation rapture position, usually site 1 Thessalonians 5:9 "For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ" But this verse cannot possibly refer to Christians suffering here on earth, because Christians have been persecuted since the first days of the church. We find the timing of the Rapture in Revelation 14:14-16 where the Angel harvests the earth - right in the middle of the tribulation, and just before the time of Jacob's Trouble. This timing is affirmed by two passages where we see saints pulled out of the Tribulation in Revelation 7:13-15 and Revelation 20:4.

We are giving the church faults hope by suggesting we will not have to endure the Tribulation. We need to prepare for these troubled times.

Click to expand...

Sin is the cause of Jacob’s trouble​

Our loving God hates sin because of its destructive effects. His laws are for our good, so when we break those laws, we bring bad consequences on ourselves and those around us. Sin causes pain and suffering and cuts us off from God. Sin will be in the world until Jesus returns .... all will go through the great tribulation ... although it will be cut short.

The Lord returns and the 1st resurrection happens .... there is no "rapture" before that time.

Eprom said:

Does 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10 refer to the wrath of the 7 years of tribulation, the last 3.5 years of tribulation known as Jacob's trouble, or the second death? I believe it refers to the second death!

Revelation 20:12, 13 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them, and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

Concerning Revelation 3:10, I do agree that this reference refers to the wrath of God on earth. However, 1) the promise is conditional and is only for the overcomers, 2) once again, is the promise for the 7 years of Tribulation or the last 3.5 years during the time of Jacob's trouble - it refers to the anti-creation event during the last 3.5 years!

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I much more understand the mid- tribulation rapture view rather than the post-tribulation. Like what would even be the point?

The reason why I believe it's pre rather than mid is that the Church is in Heaven from chapter 4 (revelation). Only then we have the 4 horsemen of which the first represents (maybe even is, but I don't think so) the antichrist.

Another reason is in Luke 21:36
"Be alert at all times, praying that you may have the strength to escape all these things that will take place, and to stand before the Son of Man". This for me means the rapture will happen before.

Also looking at the famous text in 2 Thess 2, it appears to me the Church is raptured before the antichrist is revealed which will be at the beginning of the 7 year period (I know some believe this will be after 3.5 years when he sits down in the temple)

Also we do not know the hour of the coming of Jesus, so when the tribulation starts, I know the rapture is only 3.5 years away.