What is your opinion on this meme?

Jermayn · Nov 13, 2023

2PhiloVoid · Nov 14, 2023

Jermayn said:
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My opinion? I'd rather go with facts than opinion. And there are a lot of facts to wade through by which to reach an informed state of mind.

Jermayn · Nov 14, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
My opinion? I'd rather go with facts than opinion. And there are a lot of facts to wade through by which to reach an informed state of mind.

Perhaps you would like to elaborate?

RileyG · Nov 14, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
My opinion? I'd rather go with facts than opinion. And there are a lot of facts to wade through by which to reach an informed state of mind.

I agree.

Jermayn · Nov 15, 2023

RileyG said:
I agree.

Agree with what?

2PhiloVoid · Nov 15, 2023

Jermayn said:
Perhaps you would like to elaborate?

Nah. I don't really think anyone puts the nation of Israel on a political pedestal as "Savior of the World." In fact, I think I'd be surprised to find any Christians who actually do.

RileyG · Nov 15, 2023

Jermayn said:
Agree with what?

Jesus is our savior, not the modern state of Israel, even though God has a special relationship with the Jewish people.

iluvatar5150 · Nov 15, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
Nah. I don't really think anyone puts the nation of Israel on a political pedestal as "Savior of the World." In fact, I think I'd be surprised to find any Christians who actually do.

Spend more time in the politics forum. People throw that verse around all the time as some sort of proof that the state of Israel is special.

2PhiloVoid · Nov 15, 2023

iluvatar5150 said:
Spend more time in the politics forum. People throw that verse around all the time as some sort of proof that the state of Israel is special.

Yeah, I'm sure you're right about that. I know there are some evangelical folks who are very zealous in identifying a more or less Dispensationalist expectation involving Israel.

But isn't the verse in the meme in the OP used to refer to Jesus rather than to the nation of Israel?

iluvatar5150 · Nov 15, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
But isn't the verse in the meme in the OP used to refer to Jesus rather than to the nation of Israel?

Ultimately, yes, but evangelical theology gets confusing when they try to weave geopolitics and end-times conspiracies into the mix.

Ephesians321 · Nov 15, 2023

Jermayn said:
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I wholeheartedly agree with the meme too many Christians have fallen into trap of the false teachings of a two Covenant people and that there are still prophecies to be fulfilled in Palestine. That the land promises weren't abrogated and superceded by an eternal inheritance in heaven. That God failed to create a new People with a new name where there is no Jew and Gentile, where is there is no circumcision and no uncircumcision. But Palestine served its purpose fully and completely, time to move on.

2PhiloVoid · Nov 15, 2023

iluvatar5150 said:
Ultimately, yes, but evangelical theology gets confusing when they try to weave geopolitics and end-times conspiracies into the mix.

True. "Evangelicalism" is a large catch-all for a number of competing outlooks and interpretations. It's no wonder there's a smorgasboard of confusion.

Derf · Nov 15, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
Nah. I don't really think anyone puts the nation of Israel on a political pedestal as "Savior of the World." In fact, I think I'd be surprised to find any Christians who actually do.

Not the current state of Israel, perhaps, but the potential state of Israel for sure.
Romans 11:12 KJV — Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

2PhiloVoid · Nov 15, 2023

Derf said:
Not the current state of Israel, perhaps, but the potential state of Israel for sure.
Romans 11:12 KJV — Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?

Yeah. It would be awesome if, instead of the triumphantly militant nation that Israel currently is, all those in Israel suddenly turned to Christ.

But, I'm not sure if we'll ever see that sort of thing come to pass.

jacks · Nov 15, 2023

The meme seems condescending to American (?) Evangelicals. Also not sure why the reference to Genesis 12:3. God was clearing speaking to Abram and his decedents. If one wants to make the claim that Israel isn't part of God's plan, then other arguments will need to be made. The meme doesn't make them.

public hermit · Nov 15, 2023

Jermayn said:
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Zionism began with both secular interests and religious interests (some sects within Judaism in the late 1800s and early 1900s were against Zionists because the idea of establishing a state was seen as too secular and not brought about by YHWH). There can be an argument made for Zionism's secular beginnings, think Theodor Herzl. The concept of "Jew" understood as a modern conception of race and, therefore, a race in need of a state, mostly due to a desire to escape a long history of antisemitism, can be argued for without appeal to divine will. So the meme does hit on the fact that the modern state can be seen as the outcome of modern conceptions that are not solely religious.

However, the meme critiques an attitude of supersessionism where Xnty replaces or nullifies Judaism, which is understandably seen as abhorrent. It is as if some Xns have never read Romans 9-11.

Supersessionism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Derf · Nov 15, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
Yeah. It would be awesome if, instead of the triumphantly militant nation that Israel currently is, all those in Israel suddenly turned to Christ.

But, I'm not sure if we'll ever see that sort of thing come to pass.

Paul thought we would.
Romans 11:26 KJV — And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

2PhiloVoid · Nov 16, 2023

Derf said:
Paul thought we would.
Romans 11:26 KJV — And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Well...................................maybe. But that depends by which angle of several we end up interpreting Paul when reading that particular passage.

I don't think the question, "Who is the Israel that Paul is referring to in the future?," is fully answered yet. There are competing answers though.

Jermayn · Nov 16, 2023

jacks said:
The meme seems condescending to American (?) Evangelicals. Also not sure why the reference to Genesis 12:3. God was clearing speaking to Abram and his decedents. If one wants to make the claim that Israel isn't part of God's plan, then other arguments will need to be made. The meme doesn't make them.

In a nutshell, I think the creator is criticizing some American Evangelicals who seem to imply that salvation requires you to believe on Jesus....and support Jewish people in any and everything they do. Some even think that being an ethnic Jew nullifies your requirement to accept Christ to be saved. While we know that isn't true, there is still the question of the Christian church being the sole focus of the Bible after Jesus ascended, or if ethnic Jews still have some special relationship to God that non-Jewish Christians do not have. I see compelling arguments for both sides of the debate.

Derf · Nov 16, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
Well...................................maybe. But that depends by which angle of several we end up interpreting Paul when reading that particular passage.

I don't think the question, "Who is the Israel that Paul is referring to in the future?," is fully answered yet. There are competing answers though.

It's certainly not the Gentile church. Follow the ye's and they's:
Romans 11:30-31 KJV — For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

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