Healthspan, lifespan, exercise - Jordan Peterson, Peter Attia

myst33 said:

I thought you said its because it has added vegetables, i.e. its cheaper because there is less meat. Maybe I musunderstood.


But those are about strict dietary ketosis, i.e. more or less zero carb diets, like carnivore diet.

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Dietary ketosis happens whenever the body is burning fat as fuel. A person can be in a state of ketosis and eat a high carbohydrate diet, as long as a person is burning more calories than they consume. In that case, the fat being burned is body fat.

On a carnivore diet, alot of the protein that a person eats will be turned into sugar in a process called gluconeogenesis, which happens in the liver.

myst33 said:

They did not have our modern food. Heart attack was basically unknown until the beginning of the 20th century. It strongly correlates with plant oils combined with added sugar.

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Heart disease was observed long before the 20th century. It mostly occurred only in the aristocracy.

Plant oils low in saturated fat, such as olive or rapeseed oils, aren't generally considered by reputable health authorities in the US or the EU to contribute to heart disease, quite the opposite, if they replace other sources of fat such as butter, lard, hydrogenated oils, refine palm oils, etc.

myst33 said:

I thought you said its because it has added vegetables, i.e. its cheaper because there is less meat. Maybe I musunderstood.

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The meat on it looks only 2/3 the total mass of the product including the veggies and flour from the wrapper. Yet it only costs half of the raw pork meat you can buy at the same wet market at the same weight.

I suspect they source their meat from fast food leftovers or expired beef burger patties. Because they taste and smell similar and quite resilient from spoilage. Deep frying helps destroy any harmful pathogens. As long as I'm not getting sick from it and I'm showing continued physical improvements from workouts then I'm good with it. Plus, I really like the taste.

But those are about strict dietary ketosis, i.e. more or less zero carb diets, like carnivore diet.

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True. Still, being on ketosis 50% of the time is still better than 0%.

Just the fact your body can easily switch to ketosis without hunger and without any side-effects means it has adapted very well to fat burning and fat metabolism. It has turned more to ketones than glucose as energy source for the muscles and brain. Your body will be burning fat as quickly as it makes them and with less glucose/glycogen floating around, reduces risk of cancer.

OK, but it seems so a bit, if you regularly say its solved if you exercise a lot and do IF. Its what big companies who live from junk food are saying - just move enough and eat in moderation.

But almost nobody in the West can do that, junk foods are designed to be strongly addictive, so eating in moderation goes out of window, and its physically impossible to exercise out what is in it.
You must take those people (the vast majority of people here are Americans) in consideration. If it works for you, you are a rare exception, but its not usable for others. 90% of Americans have some kind of a metabolic disease and about half of them are obese. Not overweight, but clinically obese. And they hear "exercise and eat in moderation" for decades. They are not able to do that. They must change diet.

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But they don't say to exercise while fasting where your body runs out of glycogen.

It's these two things when done together trains the body to metabolize fat and to begin treating fat as primary energy source as glycogen.

Ketogenic diet achieves the same thing as the body is also starved of glycogen.

But since IF is cheaper than keto diet, IF would be my natural choice.

I don't eat in moderation on each my meal. I eat until I'm no longer comfortable taking another bite. I think eating in moderation could intensify your food cravings and you end up eating more often and end up with greater calorie intake at the end of the day.

I only eat twice a day so I have to eat a bit more each meal than you would in a three meal eating routine. I tried 5 meal day routine with smaller portions but didn't work. I end up gaining a bit of weight. I though it would make me less hungry but saw the opposite effect.

They did not have our modern food. Heart attack was basically unknown until the beginning of the 20th century. It strongly correlates with plant oils combined with added sugar.

Have you thought about creating gofundme or some alternative?

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If you would regard those as toxins and if ancient followers gained ability to resist toxins, then they probably would have done okay with modern foods.

Consider the people who did not believe Christ in those times, they set their minds in indulging in food and wine and getting slaves to do all the physical work for them. That's their dream of a "good life". Living an easy life makes you less resilient from things that would kill you. That is the natural order and even animals are under such order.

I never thought about gofundme. Why would I need funding? I'm not doing anything important at all. If this is about free money? I'm not comfortable with it anymore. I have relatives and friends give us a bit of money for some relief in the past. But I no longer feel comfortable receiving money I didn't worked for. Not anymore unless it comes with some type of work. Though I found it ironic, it's usually the ones who are not well off that ends up helping us. Our rich relatives who are actually Christians won't even bat an eye.

myst33 said:

But almost nobody in the West can do that, junk foods are designed to be strongly addictive, so eating in moderation goes out of window, and its physically impossible to exercise out what is in it.
You must take those people (the vast majority of people here are Americans) in consideration. If it works for you, you are a rare exception, but its not usable for others. 90% of Americans have some kind of a metabolic disease and about half of them are obese. Not overweight, but clinically obese. And they hear "exercise and eat in moderation" for decades. They are not able to do that. They must change diet.

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Yes, this is an important point to me. It's why I said earlier that the turning point in America toward obesity was not so much a decrease in exercise (which was slight), but the change in the food environment and eating habits of the 70s and 80s (which was massive).

myst33 said:

It may work for you, for now and in your environment, but if an average American reads "eat until you are full" and this American is used to eat enormous amount of junk and fried food, it will kill him.

Therefore, for the vast majority of people reading this, they must change their diet, they cannot exercise it out and they cannot moderate sugar, they are addicted to it. 99,99% of people cannot do IF with chocolate, pizzas, various kinds of pastry, cereals, ice cream, sodas, cookies, cakes and other traps around. They must throw it out completely and buy only food that does not have any contents on its label and is ancestral. With such food, its possible to eat till full and to do IF.

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This fried food I eat is only a small portion of my meal. Most of it being steamed rice in weight. Most I eat is basically just carbs and water.

Yup, I'm not sitting around with pizzas, ice cream, cookies, cake because I can't afford them! The foods I eat, though they taste OK, are not addictive. You'll be satiated quickly.

I do make my own snack that is basically very similar to oatmeal in ingredients. It's rich in fiber, it's sweetened but not as addictive as chocolate, Oreos, french fries, and Doritos.

Yet, I don't eat snack like other people but eat snack (if I want to) immediately after the main meals. I still don't snack between meals.

Exercising even if it didn't made you lose weight is still needed for keeping bone density and strength. Vitamin D isn't enough on its own to make you absorb calcium in your diet or supplements to your bones. You need to stress the bones (like in running and weight lifting) in order to absorb most of your calcium intake. Else, the excess calcium in the blood will calcify blood vessels and cause cardiovascular diseases.

Some people doing weight lifting exercises who are not losing weight may actually be offsetting the fat they lose from increased muscle mass. You can be lean with small body fat % and still be overweight yet, this is considered healthy. Body Fat % can be the bigger factor in determining your CVD risk. Many powerlifting athletes are overweight, but they are considered healthy due to low body fat %.

RDKirk said:

Yes, this is an important point to me. It's why I said earlier that the turning point in America toward obesity was not so much a decrease in exercise (which was slight), but the change in the food environment and eating habits of the 70s and 80s (which was massive).

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Exercising doesn't always make people under-compensate calorie-intake. As a matter of fact, exercising is one of therapies used to make underweight people gain weight by increasing their appetite.

Modern fitness experts even recommend over-compensating a little bit. It works with professional athletes with training loads at least 3x above average. But won't work for most who maybe very physically active and exercise a lot but are not professional athletes.

But if combined with fasting, exercising is a very effective strategy to force your body to adapt to fat metabolism and able to use body fat as primary source of energy with glucose.

RDKirk said:

Well, I just walked back to the computer from doing my second set of 100 weighted squats for the day...and I'm 70 years old.

But when I was younger, I was an avid road cyclist into my 50s, doing 200-250 miles a week, usually including 75-100 miles every Saturday morning as well as a bit of weight training. And you know what...I was still slowly gaining weight all along. My wife is an excellent baker.

These days, I do much more weight training than I did when I was younger and a lot less cardio. My current cardio practice is 3-4 short sprints (five to ten minutes) every day that get my heartrate up to 80% of my max each time. Once a week, I'll do a HIIT session that gets my heartrate up to maximum. I've been using a heartrate monitor since about 1990, so I'm pretty familiar with how my heart responds to exercise. Of course, that's all on the foundation of decades of heavy cycling. Various cardio scans show my cardiovascular system is clean as a whistle, and my blood pressure is 112/68.

I also intermittent fast, eating at noon and 6 pm. And like you, hunger is a thing of the past. I just don't feel it, even if I skip the noon meal and have forgotten the evening meal later into the evening.

I don't really think eating only one or two meals a day is that significant. I think people would do as well with three meals a day...but no snacking. It's the snacking that's the killer.

But I give praise to God, who has given me three specific healing miracles of four other ailments that would have been severely debilitating, life changing, and even life threatening. I define a "miracle" as when the doctors see what they need to cut out, then what they saw disappears and they say, "How did that happen?"

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Praise God for the miracles!

Cycling is also my main exercise but I had to supplant it with running and weight lifting.

It was an eye opener for me to find out that cycling long distances regularly produced unwanted consequence of reducing bone density.

I did not cut back in cycling, at least, not on purpose. I had to make way for strength training. Eventually, as I level it off (settled on the maximum weight I could make with the dumbbells), I will progressively return to my original ride duration of 70 miles.

I definitely felt my bones got weaker because when I started running, my knees, ankles hurt at first and my ankles got swollen and I can feel my fibula bones straining but thank God, it didn't take long to regain back the bone strength I've lost and soon enough I was able to do weight lifting workouts as well.

I'm only able to cycle on weekends. Weekdays, I hit the stationary bike, run for 10 minutes and also lift weights.

I don't count calories but it's likely I'm eating less calories than I'm burning weekly as I'm now borderline underweight or 2 lbs underweight. Fortunately, I have settled on this weight for months now and maintaining.

I look heavier than I am which is an oddity. Everyone who looks at me wouldn't believe I'm underweight and I can float with ease on freshwater even though I'm quite lean with little body fat.

timewerx said:

It was an eye opener for me to find out that cycling long distances regularly produced unwanted consequence of reducing bone density.

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This, IF it happens, can be traced to diet, and changed better, controlled by diet. (and prayer)
The things that harm the heath, including bones, most
are probably harmfully processed dairy, and NaFl (sodium flouride)(not CaFl).....
and while not 'most', but definitely common: tap water unfiltered.

myst33 said:

Most people in developed countries must be radical in their diet and throw away all junk food, all added sugars, plant oils and similar and return to their ancestral diet. If they try their "own sweets", they binge and are in the old habits in a moment. Some cannot even eat fruit or else they binge and end with cakes.

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Sounds like most people in developed countries have high insulin resistance.

Hungry all the time is one of the symptoms of high insulin resistance.

Solving the problem would probably begin with reducing insulin resistance.

myst33 said:

Most people in developed countries must be radical in their diet and throw away all junk food, all added sugars, plant oils and similar and return to their ancestral diet. If they try their "own sweets", they binge and are in the old habits in a moment. Some cannot even eat fruit or else they binge and end with cakes.

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Well, fruit today is immensely more "fruity" than fruit used to be. Even without going back hundreds of years, I've seen it change in my own lifetime. When I was a kid, oranges were half the current size, nowhere near as sweet, had seeds, and took half an hour to peel. Strawberries were the size of your thumbnail and tart, not sweet.

In the natural world, fruit is actually difficult to find in most places, it's not always sweet, and there is a 50% chance the fruit you find is poisonous.

Aaron112 said:

This, IF it happens, can be traced to diet, and changed better, controlled by diet. (and prayer)
The things that harm the heath, including bones, most
are probably harmfully processed dairy, and NaFl (sodium flouride)(not CaFl).....
and while not 'most', but definitely common: tap water unfiltered.

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I did not change diet but lifting weights and running solved the problem. I'm susceptible to losing bone strength to the fact I weigh so little at only 52.73 kg or 116 lbs at a height of 5'8". I'm slightly or borderline underweight. Cycling is a "low impact" exercise, while excellent for cardiovascular health, is insufficient exercise for developing or maintaining bone strength.

That "little voice" or the Holy Spirit did lead me to start running and lifting to supplant cycling. Cycling is still my main cardio exercise but now with running added.

I have plenty of calcium and Vitamin D in my diet plus daily exposure to the sun every morning. But I also read to maximize absorption of calcium into the bones, you also need to strain your bones in addition to Vitamin D. Running and doing leg workouts with weights like dumbbell lunges and kettlebell or barbell squats would do the trick to maximizing absorption of calcium into the bones.

myst33 said:

Sure, with proper diet.

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Both IF and Keto diet will reduce insulin resistance. Both will induce ketosis. Duration and consistency of ketosis with IF improved if exercising within fasting window.

I've become pre-diabetic before and had symptoms of high insulin resistance but solved with IF with exercise.

timewerx said:

I did not change diet but lifting weights and running solved the problem. I'm susceptible to losing bone strength to the fact I weigh so little at only 52.73 kg or 116 lbs at a height of 5'8". I'm slightly or borderline underweight. Cycling is a "low impact" exercise, while excellent for cardiovascular health, is insufficient exercise for developing or maintaining bone strength.

That "little voice" or the Holy Spirit did lead me to start running and lifting to supplant cycling. Cycling is still my main cardio exercise but now with running added.

I have plenty of calcium and Vitamin D in my diet plus daily exposure to the sun every morning. But I also read to maximize absorption of calcium into the bones, you also need to strain your bones in addition to Vitamin D. Running and doing leg workouts with weights like dumbbell lunges and kettlebell or barbell squats would do the trick to maximizing absorption of calcium into the bones.

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I reckon you might be needing calm powder, subject to testing or other verification, or trial and error... without sufficient magnesium, adding calcium or d or exercise et al may be incomplete.

timewerx said:

Sounds like most people in developed countries have high insulin resistance.

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I didn't think of this before, except as the diets and medcines used in developed countries, and the practices, social, diet, medical and scholastic all likely contribute ... wittingly or not.

myst33 said:

Yes, todays fruit and vegetables are not very natural, they are scientifically designed and enhanced for quick growth, easy transport and long shelf life. They are either tasteless or too sweet.

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Eating whole fruits isn't responsible for the obesity and diabetes epidemic in the US. Most Americans don't even come close to eating the USDA's recommended quantity of fruits and vegetables every day. Even given the relatively minor changes in fruit hybrids over the past two hundred years towards greater shelf life and somewhat higher sugar content, fruits are still more nutrient dense and much lower in calories than junk food. For instance, a small bag of potato chips has about 240 calories, but a Fuji apple (which is a variety of apple relatively high in sugar) has only about 72 calories: you'ld have to eat about three Fuji apples to equal the same amount of calories in a snack bag of potato chips.