"Post Truth"

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 22, 2023

While the term was used academically and publicly before 2016, the Oxford Dictionary defined it as "relating to and denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief."

Defining Post-truth: Structures, Agents, and Styles

Factual truth has a limited but indispensable role to play in pluralistic politics, comparable to material environment that both enables and limits democratic debate.

www.e-ir.info

Where do we go from here? I really don't know. It seems that all any of us can do is challenge ourselves to seek truth beyond what we want to hear and read. And we can each do better in realizing that our present world views color our interpretations. On matters of importance to us we must dig deeper with more objectivity. It takes work.

HTacianas · Jun 22, 2023

Akita Suggagaki said:
While the term was used academically and publicly before 2016, the Oxford Dictionary defined it as "relating to and denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief."

Defining Post-truth: Structures, Agents, and Styles

Factual truth has a limited but indispensable role to play in pluralistic politics, comparable to material environment that both enables and limits democratic debate.

www.e-ir.info

Where do we go from here? I really don't know. It seems that all any of us can do is challenge ourselves to seek truth beyond what we want to hear and read. And we can each do better in realizing that our present world views color our interpretations. On matters of importance to us we must dig deeper with more objectivity. It takes work.

This guy thinks all that only started in 2016?

Akita Suggagaki · Jun 22, 2023

HTacianas said:
This guy thinks all that only started in 2016?

Actually it is ancient. As long as there has been propaganda. I think though that it is now the norm.

Handmaid for Jesus · Jun 22, 2023

Akita Suggagaki said:
Actually it is ancient. As long as there has been propaganda. I think though that it is now the norm.

The deceived is blind to the deception. The water is so muddy, who knows who is truthful anymore.

FireDragon76 · Jul 10, 2023

Akita Suggagaki said:
While the term was used academically and publicly before 2016, the Oxford Dictionary defined it as "relating to and denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief."

Defining Post-truth: Structures, Agents, and Styles

Factual truth has a limited but indispensable role to play in pluralistic politics, comparable to material environment that both enables and limits democratic debate.

www.e-ir.info

Where do we go from here? I really don't know. It seems that all any of us can do is challenge ourselves to seek truth beyond what we want to hear and read. And we can each do better in realizing that our present world views color our interpretations. On matters of importance to us we must dig deeper with more objectivity. It takes work.

It would help if we didn't have hundreds of years of weaponizing "truth" to uphold unjust hierarchies.

Akita Suggagaki · Jul 11, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
It would help if we didn't have hundreds of years of weaponizing "truth" to uphold unjust hierarchies.

More than hundreds, probably as long as humans could talk.

FireDragon76 · Jul 11, 2023

Akita Suggagaki said:
More than hundreds, probably as long as humans could talk.

It's really the dark side of the development of religion as a cultural force, probably some time between 5,000-10,000 BC.

Of course, it is the reason that Christians have a crucified savior, as well. Nobody likes to be told the emperor has no clothes. It's especially dangerous when the emperor has alot of minions with pointy spears.

JimR-OCDS · Jul 21, 2023

I believe God gave us the truth in the Ten Commandments.

Beyond that, humans have constantly ignored them and tried to come up with their
own commandments to follow. It fails miserably.

FireDragon76 · Jul 21, 2023

JimR-OCDS said:
I believe God gave us the truth in the Ten Commandments.

Beyond that, humans have constantly ignored them and tried to come up with their
own commandments to follow. It fails miserably.

People have selectively read the Scriptures over the centuries to benefit people in power. Not even the Ten Commandments could stop that.

JimR-OCDS · Jul 21, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
People have selectively read the Scriptures over the centuries to benefit people in power. Not even the Ten Commandments could stop that.

Actually, the Ten Commandments does. The language is clear.

God's moral values are the source of freedom. Those societies which ignore them and
create their own moral values, collapse. It's where we are headed if the nation doesn't
return to it's roots, which is a society based on Judeo/Christian values given by the
Creator, not man. It's even in the Declaration of Independence.

FireDragon76 · Jul 24, 2023

In general, educated people and elites in our society have rightly rejected some things from traditional religion, such as the dogmatism and superstition, but we've also wrongly rejected the idea of truth altogether. And it's had repurcussions as the masses in society have taken on this type of mentality, resorting to listening to demagogues that are entertaining and will tell them what they want to hear. We've lost the collective ability to engage in moral reasoning, because we no longer have confidence that concepts like truth are real.

Akita Suggagaki · Jul 24, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
We've lost the collective ability to engage in moral reasoning, because we no longer have confidence that concepts like truth are real.

I agree with, "We've lost the collective ability to engage in moral reasoning" but we have mistaken confidence that OUR truth is rea;.

FireDragon76 · Jul 24, 2023

Akita Suggagaki said:
I agree with, "We've lost the collective ability to engage in moral reasoning" but we have mistaken confidence that OUR truth is rea;.

I don't know where things go from here. I suspect modern people, at least in the West, are only disposed to moral deliberation through storytelling in media. Religion isn't credible, especially with younger people, and I doubt much can be done to change that. That's not just the fault of conservative Christians, mainline Protestant churches haven't done a great job offering a compelling moral vision, either.

But conservative Christians have done the most damage, at least in the US. Some recent popular portrayals of religion are fairly negative: I just got done re-watching the Netflix series the Queen's Gambit and it has a very cynical, albeit somewhat realistic portrayal of religion, and I found that telling. It seems many in the creative class expect religious people to be cold, calculating hypocrites peddling useless wares now days.

Akita Suggagaki · Jul 25, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
I suspect modern people, at least in the West, are only disposed to moral deliberation through storytelling in media.

Interesting you should mention that. I am all about narrative these days. In this technological era data and nonfiction texts or facts give us the illusion of certainty. But we will get more out of a story.

FireDragon76 · Jul 25, 2023

Akita Suggagaki said:
Interesting you should mention that. I am all about narrative these days. In this technological era data and nonfiction texts or facts give us the illusion of certainty. But we will get more out of a story.

An adventure game I played recently, Soma, really had some good storytelling, in Philip K Dick kind of story about a dying man that accidentally transfers his mind into a post-apocalyptic undersea world. Lots of questions about the nature of the self. That kind of thing, I think ,alot of young people can connect with, and there were subtle moral lessons in there despite the ambiguity of the situation (another cyborg AI person, who was once a female Asian researcher, was alot more nonchalant about their situation and focused on positive, goal directed activities and altruism, whereas the white guy was on the verge of losing his mind and he was always thinking in a self-absorbed manner).

During the Pandemic there was also a sci-fi kung-fu action movie called Everything, Everywhere, All at Once that also managed to have some subtle moral themes in the film, despite the ambiguity of the situation. Both Soma and EEAAO focus on the need to have compassion for oneself and others in the face of the precariousness of life.

Akita Suggagaki · Jul 25, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
An adventure game I played recently, Soma, really had some good storytelling, in Philip K Dick kind of story about a dying man that accidentally transfers his mind into a post-apocalyptic undersea world. Lots of questions about the nature of the self. That kind of thing, I think ,alot of young people can connect with, and there were subtle moral lessons in there despite the ambiguity of the situation (another cyborg AI person, who was once a female Asian researcher, was alot more nonchalant about their situation and focused on positive, goal directed activities and altruism, whereas the white guy was on the verge of losing his mind and he was always thinking in a self-absorbed manner).

During the Pandemic there was also a sci-fi kung-fu action movie called Everything, Everywhere, All at Once that also managed to have some subtle moral themes in the film, despite the ambiguity of the situation. Both Soma and EEAAO focus on the need to have compassion for oneself and others in the face of the precariousness of life.

I am eager to see EEAAO. Have you read The Three Body Problem? I see now it is also a TV series. Aliens use video game to enculturate humans before invasion. The power of stories and our involvement in them is amazing.

FireDragon76 · Aug 29, 2023

Akita Suggagaki said:
I am eager to see EEAAO. Have you read The Three Body Problem? I see now it is also a TV series. Aliens use video game to enculturate humans before invasion. The power of stories and our involvement in them is amazing.

I haven't read that book yet, but I have heard it was good. I'll look into it.

I liked the SciFi channel's remake of Childhood's End- I watched that during the pandemic. That lead me to read Clarke's original book. I haven't read much Clarke before. It's interesting how somebody who was otherwise an atheist makes a book about transcendence and our stubborn fear of change. And yet, recent events in the world have convinced me that he was accurate in his assessment of humanity.

Akita Suggagaki · Aug 29, 2023

FireDragon76 said:
That lead me to read Clarke's original book.

I don't think I ever have. Can you compare it to the movie?

FireDragon76 · Aug 30, 2023

Akita Suggagaki said:
I don't think I ever have. Can you compare it to the movie?

The movie is faithful to the book, with the same overall plot and some of the same characters, without being completely identical in all details.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Aug 30, 2023

In a system which values rhetoric and the ability to sway, why should anyone think the truth matters in said system?

What's to be done? Live your best life apart from the system.

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