JUSTIFICATION by works, grace, or faith?

tonychanyt · Jun 28, 2023

See JUSTIFICATION by works, grace, or faith?

Soyeong · Jun 28, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Yes, all of the above.

By works, Rom 2:

13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Jame 2:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

25And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

G1344-justify appears 39 times. It is used generally to mean to render righteous.

By grace, Rom 3:

24 and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

By faith

29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Now, on the other hand, Rom 3:

20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Works alone are not sufficient, you need faith as well.

Rom 3

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Don't boast about your human works. Without faith in God, no one is justified.

29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Since we don't need the works of the law, may as well throw it away. No, not at all. Do not overgeneralize and misunderstand Paul's point. Works are necessary; just don't boast about it. Without grace, your works are useless to justify you for eternal life.

Rom 4:

2 If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Even Abraham was not justified without faith.

See also Logical Equivalence of Faith and Works

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

Paul also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 say that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith uphold it. In Psalms 119:29-30, he want to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by putting God's law on his heart, so this has always been the one and only way to become justified by grace through faith.

Clare73 · Jun 28, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Yes, all of the above.
By works, Rom 2:

13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

In context, that is part of Paul's proof of the condemnation of the Jews because no one could keep the law according to God's standards, so they were all condemned by the law, rather than saved by it.

Jame 2:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

25And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

James uses "justify" as proof of faith, Paul uses "justify" as declared righteous.
They are not talking about the same thing.

Scripture does not present righteousness by law-keeping. It presents the curse of the law by failure in law keeping.

G1344-justify appears 39 times. It is used generally to mean to render righteous.
By grace, Rom 3:

24 and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.
By faith

29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Now, on the other hand, Rom 3:

20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Works alone are not sufficient, you need faith as well.

Rom 3

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Don't boast about your human works. Without faith in God, no one is justified.

29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Since we don't need the works of the law, may as well throw it away. No, not at all. Do not overgeneralize and misunderstand Paul's point. Works are necessary; just don't boast about it. Without grace, your works are useless to justify you for eternal life.

Rom 4:

2 If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Even Abraham was not justified without faith.

Abraham was justified by faith alone, apart from works (Ro 4:1-5).

See also Logical Equivalence of Faith and Works

Works are excluded from justification/righteousness, which is by faith alone (Ro 3:21, 28, Gal 2:16, 3:11),
just as they are exlcuded from salvation (Eph 5:8-9), which is by faith alone.

tonychanyt · Jun 29, 2023

Clare73 said:
James uses "justify" as proof of faith, Paul uses "justify" as declared righteous.
They are not talking about the same thing.

Interesting angle

Please support with verses and references.

Blade · Jun 29, 2023

“Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”

"though the sense of the word justified in this passage is disputed.". I think Clare73 was talking about this.

I think its clear faith with out works is dead. Abraham believed God hello faith and like us we believe in Christ which makes us in right standing with God aka righteousness. Then Abraham did what God told him hello works to make it simple. I will say I am not here to tell anyone what GOD really said or didn't say. This is what I read what I believe.

Clare73 · Jun 29, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Interesting angle

Please support with verses and references.

Paul has in mind Abraham's attitude toward God, his acceptance of God's word--Abraham believed, a matter known only to God.

Paul is occupied with the effect of this Godward attitude, not upon Abraham's character or actions, but upon the contrast between faith and the lack of it; viz., unbelief.
James is occupied with the contrast between faith that is manifestly real and faith that is manifestly false, a faith barren and dead, which is not faith at all.
Paul is referring to the time of Ge 15:6 when Abraham believed, while James is referring to the time of Ge 22:18 when Abraham obeyed.
With Paul, faith is acceptance of God's word (Ge 15:5), with James it is acceptance of doctrine, which may not affect one's conduct.
With Paul, faith results in acceptance with God; i.e., justification, and will show itself in action. With James, if not, then it does not save.

With Paul, works are dead, with James they are life works.
With Paul, works can be independent of faith, with James they are done only where faith is real, to which they testify.

With Paul justification/righteousness is a right relationship with God, with James it is right conduct.
With Paul the wicked can be justified by faith (Ro 4:5), with James only the right-doer is justified.

tonychanyt · Jun 29, 2023

Clare73 said:
With Paul, works are dead

Verse?

Clare73 · Jun 29, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Verse?

Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28.
They are dead in relation to salvation and justification/righteousness.

tonychanyt · Jun 29, 2023

Clare73 said:
Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28.
They are dead in relation to salvation and justification/righteousness.

Can you show your reasoning step by step?

fhansen · Jun 30, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Yes, all of the above.

By works, Rom 2:

13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Jame 2:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

25And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

G1344-justify appears 39 times. It is used generally to mean to render righteous.

By grace, Rom 3:

24 and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

By faith

29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Now, on the other hand, Rom 3:

20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Works alone are not sufficient, you need faith as well.

Rom 3

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Don't boast about your human works. Without faith in God, no one is justified.

29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Since we don't need the works of the law, may as well throw it away. No, not at all. Do not overgeneralize and misunderstand Paul's point. Works are necessary; just don't boast about it. Without grace, your works are useless to justify you for eternal life.

Rom 4:

2 If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Even Abraham was not justified without faith.

See also Logical Equivalence of Faith and Works

Faith is the doorway to God; it makes Him our God again. Faith is the realization with ourselves of the reconciliation with God which was wrought by Jesus on the cross. Faith is the basis of justice/righteousness for man and so is the first right step on a journey to the purpose we are created for. Man was made for communion with God and the nearer that we draw to Him, the greater our justice as we become increasingly like Him. Alternatively we can choose to stay away, or enter relationship after coming to know Him and later break that bond, returning to the flesh.

So to believe in God is to be justified-we cannot justify ourselves based on the law or anything else. And that justice/righteousness is real righteousness, that we can "invest" and express as we now do God's will...or not. But as we do, we walk in the Spirit, under grace, as His children. We begin to love as He does. And without that love, that holiness and its expression in this world, our faith is nothing, worthless,, dead (1 Cor 13:2, Gal 5:6, James 2:26).

tonychanyt · Jun 30, 2023

fhansen said:
we cannot justify ourselves based on the law or anything else.

Right, we cannot justify ourselves based on the law or anything else, not before God. However, was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

The word "justify" has different nuances. Do you allow the different nuances?

fhansen · Jun 30, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Right, we cannot justify ourselves based on the law or anything else, not before God. However, was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

The word "justify" has different nuances. Do you allow the different nuances?

Yes, Abraham was-that was the point, in fact. We are authentically motivated to do the right thing to the extent that we believe in, hope in, and, most importantly, love God. And this begins as we turn to Him in faith. And justification means more than a declared or imputed righteousness or forgiveness and remission of sin but also involves the positive side: finally being made just by virtue of fellowship with God who puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts. Romans often speaks of this gift of righteousness. In any case righteousness must never be separated from...righteousness. Grace and faith are not a reprieve from the obligation to be righteous but rather they are finally the means to that very thing, the right way, God's way, not our way.

The chief difference between the old and new covenants is that the new involves reconciliation and union with God before anything else. We don't obey the law in order to please and reconcile ourselves with God, rather we must be reconciled with God first-and then He causes that obedience as we come, with the help of grace, to love Him and neighbor. In fact, our very purpose is fulfilled to the extent that we love Him with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. That's the path we must be on in this life-or return to if we stray-to be fully completed in the next life when we meet Him "face to face".

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

“If we turn away from evil out of fear of punishment, we are in the position of slaves. If we pursue the enticement of wages, . . . we resemble mercenaries. Finally if we obey for the sake of the good itself and out of love for him who commands . . . we are in the position of children.” Basil of Cesarea

BNR32FAN · Jul 15, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Yes, all of the above.

By works, Rom 2:

13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.

Jame 2:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar?

25And in the same way was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

G1344-justify appears 39 times. It is used generally to mean to render righteous.

By grace, Rom 3:

24 and are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

By faith

29 Is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith.

Now, on the other hand, Rom 3:

20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

Works alone are not sufficient, you need faith as well.

Rom 3

27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.

Don't boast about your human works. Without faith in God, no one is justified.

29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law.

Since we don't need the works of the law, may as well throw it away. No, not at all. Do not overgeneralize and misunderstand Paul's point. Works are necessary; just don't boast about it. Without grace, your works are useless to justify you for eternal life.

Rom 4:

2 If Abraham was indeed justified by works, he had something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

Even Abraham was not justified without faith. The word "justified" has different nuances. We need all three, works, grace, and faith, to be justified (in all the different nuances).

See also Logical Equivalence of Faith and Works

I believe you’re misquoting Paul in Romans 4 because the next two verses make it very clear that justification does not include works.

“Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4‬:‭4‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Also I should point out that the Greek word dikaioō doesn’t only mean to be credited as righteous it can also mean to be evinced or shown to be righteous which is what James is referring to in James 2.

“But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.””
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Justified
dikaioō

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

So if James were using the definition to be credited as being righteous in James 2 then he would be directly contradicting what Paul specifically stated in Romans 4. This is why the definition of being evinced or shown to be righteous is the only logical usage of the word in this particular case.

tonychanyt · Jul 15, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
I believe you’re misquoting Paul in Romans 4 because the next two verses make it very clear that justification does not include works.

See Logical Equivalence of Faith and Works and follow up there.

Studyman · Jul 16, 2023

Soyeong said:
While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

Nicely said. The Biblical Truth that our Works show our Faith was established very well in the story of Eve. She Professed to know God. But when tested, her works showed that she really didn't believe Him. Paul speaks to this.

Titus 1: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

As Jesus said, "Many" call Him Lord, Lord. But it's their Works that show who they truly believe.

Soyeong said:
Paul also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 say that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith uphold it. In Psalms 119:29-30, he want to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by putting God's law on his heart, so this has always been the one and only way to become justified by grace through faith.

Amen, as Paul also teaches the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile years after the Christ ascended.

Rom. 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Our works will show if we believe Paul's words here or not.

BNR32FAN · Jul 16, 2023

tonychanyt said:
See Logical Equivalence of Faith and Works and follow up there.

This doesn’t address the conflict between James 2 and Roman’s 4. Interpreting the word “justified” as meaning credited as being righteous makes James’ and Paul’s statements polar opposites.

“Was not Abraham our father credited as being righteous by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For if Abraham was credited as being righteous by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4‬:‭2‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

As you can see if we take out the word justified and replace it with the definition “credited as being righteous” James and Paul would be contradicting one another. James is talking about our works being observable evidence of our faith, Paul is not.

“But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.””
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

BNR32FAN · Jul 16, 2023

Soyeong said:
While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

Paul also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 say that our faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith uphold it. In Psalms 119:29-30, he want to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by putting God's law on his heart, so this has always been the one and only way to become justified by grace through faith.

The way I see it James is referring to Abraham’s works being evidence of his faith. Not that the works played any role in his faith or his justification because it was Abraham’s faith that led him to do the work of offering Issac. So let’s say hypothetically that Abraham had died on the way to offer Issac as a sacrifice. His faith was still the same before he made that choice to obey God. He still had the same faith before he chose to obey God even tho the work had not been done yet. Before Abraham actually put Issac on the alter and raised the knife to kill him he was already a man who had the faith to do such a thing in obedience to God. His faith didn’t change after his obedience, his faith was the same even before God commanded him to offer Issac.

Studyman · Jul 16, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
This doesn’t address the conflict between James 2 and Roman’s 4. Interpreting the word “justified” as meaning credited as being righteous makes James’ and Paul’s statements polar opposites.

“Was not Abraham our father credited as being righteous by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭21‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“For if Abraham was credited as being righteous by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness, just as David also speaks of the blessing on the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4‬:‭2‬-‭6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

As you can see if we take out the word justified and replace it with the definition “credited as being righteous” James and Paul would be contradicting one another. James is talking about our works being observable evidence of our faith, Paul is not.

“But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.””
‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭18‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

This confusion you exhibit here is simple to explain. Paul is speaking to the Pharisees continued promotion of the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" for remission of Sins in Romans 3 and 4, and Galatians. This "LAW", requiring works of a man to kill an animal for his sins, was "ADDED" after the Golden calf incident. ( AKA "Because of Transgressions, till the Seed should come") He is explaining that Abraham was justified "Apart" from these "sacrificial "Works" required by the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi, as they were not "ADDED" until 430 years after God said " that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." (See Gen. 26 and Gal. 3)

Of course, Abraham was Justified because he was a "Doer" of God's Instruction, not a hearer only, as Paul also tells us in Rom. 2. We are servants to whomever we "Yield ourselves" servants to obey, as Paul tells us in Rom. 6.

What you are missing, is that Paul was arguing with a religion who didn't believe Moses, therefore, they didn't believe Jesus was the Prophesied "Priest" of God. Therefore, they continued in their version of the sacrificial Levitical Priesthood "works" for the remission of Sins, (See Lev. 4) which was not commanded to Abraham, or the Children of Israel in the day God gave them His Covenant. (Ex. 19) But was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, till the Seed should come.

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

All men are judged by their works. All men are known by their works. The Bible is full of this Biblical Truth as Jesus also confirms.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

What Paul is teaching in Romans is that the old priesthood covenant "Works of the Law" for remission of sins that the Pharisees were still promoting, justified no flesh, "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. These Sacrifices were symbolic of what the Christ would do for the repentant. And the truly repentant are those who are "doers" of God's Law, not just hearers.

Once this truth is understood, there is no contradiction between James and Paul and Jesus at all. They are all on the exact same Page.

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Like Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men and all examples of Faithful man in the Holy Scriptures.

Romans. 3: 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

This is easy to understand by asking ourselves one simple question.

"In the Law of Moses, when a man sinned what was required for this sin to be forgiven?"

Did Moses say, "If a man sins, he shall love his neighbor as himself, and his sins are forgiven? NO! Did Moses say "if a man sins, he shall keep the Sabbath Holy and his sins are forgiven? NO!

Moses said;

Lev. 4: 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

This is the LAW of Works Paul was speaking to, AKA "The Ministration of death".

Rom. 3: 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? (Old Priesthood) Nay: but by the law of faith. (New Priesthood)

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith (Shown by their works, as James teaches) without (or apart from) the deeds of the law.

This is a great study to engage in but requires a person to believe "ALL" that is written to understand.

Soyeong · Jul 16, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
The way I see it James is referring to Abraham’s works being evidence of his faith. Not that the works played any role in his faith or his justification because it was Abraham’s faith that led him to do the work of offering Issac. So let’s say hypothetically that Abraham had died on the way to offer Issac as a sacrifice. His faith was still the same before he made that choice to obey God. He still had the same faith before he chose to obey God even tho the work had not been done yet. Before Abraham actually put Issac on the alter and raised the knife to kill him he was already a man who had the faith to do such a thing in obedience to God. His faith didn’t change after his obedience, his faith was the same even before God commanded him to offer Issac.

I don't see a significant difference between me saying that Abraham was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith and you saying that Abraham's works were evidence of his faith. Saying in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified is likewise equivalent to saying only obeyers of God will be justified, and Abraham was obeyer of God through faith regardless of whether or not he died before he got a chance to obey Him one more time.

BNR32FAN · Jul 17, 2023

Studyman said:
This confusion you exhibit here is simple to explain. Paul is speaking to the Pharisees continued promotion of the Levitical Priesthood sacrificial "Works of the Law" for remission of Sins in Romans 3 and 4, and Galatians. This "LAW", requiring works of a man to kill an animal for his sins, was "ADDED" after the Golden calf incident. ( AKA "Because of Transgressions, till the Seed should come") He is explaining that Abraham was justified "Apart" from these "sacrificial "Works" required by the Priesthood Covenant God made with Levi, as they were not "ADDED" until 430 years after God said " that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws." (See Gen. 26 and Gal. 3)

Of course, Abraham was Justified because he was a "Doer" of God's Instruction, not a hearer only, as Paul also tells us in Rom. 2. We are servants to whomever we "Yield ourselves" servants to obey, as Paul tells us in Rom. 6.

What you are missing, is that Paul was arguing with a religion who didn't believe Moses, therefore, they didn't believe Jesus was the Prophesied "Priest" of God. Therefore, they continued in their version of the sacrificial Levitical Priesthood "works" for the remission of Sins, (See Lev. 4) which was not commanded to Abraham, or the Children of Israel in the day God gave them His Covenant. (Ex. 19) But was "ADDED" because of Transgressions, till the Seed should come.

Jer. 7: 22 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: 23 But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

All men are judged by their works. All men are known by their works. The Bible is full of this Biblical Truth as Jesus also confirms.

Rev. 22: 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

What Paul is teaching in Romans is that the old priesthood covenant "Works of the Law" for remission of sins that the Pharisees were still promoting, justified no flesh, "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. These Sacrifices were symbolic of what the Christ would do for the repentant. And the truly repentant are those who are "doers" of God's Law, not just hearers.

Once this truth is understood, there is no contradiction between James and Paul and Jesus at all. They are all on the exact same Page.

Rom. 2: 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. Like Noah, Abraham, Caleb, Joshua, Zacharias, Simeon, Anna, the Wise Men and all examples of Faithful man in the Holy Scriptures.

Romans. 3: 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

This is easy to understand by asking ourselves one simple question.

"In the Law of Moses, when a man sinned what was required for this sin to be forgiven?"

Did Moses say, "If a man sins, he shall love his neighbor as himself, and his sins are forgiven? NO! Did Moses say "if a man sins, he shall keep the Sabbath Holy and his sins are forgiven? NO!

Moses said;

Lev. 4: 27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; 28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. 29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. 30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. 31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

This is the LAW of Works Paul was speaking to, AKA "The Ministration of death".

Rom. 3: 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? (Old Priesthood) Nay: but by the law of faith. (New Priesthood)

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith (Shown by their works, as James teaches) without (or apart from) the deeds of the law.

This is a great study to engage in but requires a person to believe "ALL" that is written to understand.

I politely disagree with this interpretation because I don’t think it’s taking into account these verses and what they are saying.

“For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4‬:‭2‬-‭4‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

What Paul is saying here is that if works play a role in our salvation then justification is not given by grace it’s earned. He is not only referring to works of the law but all works in general.

JUSTIFICATION by works, grace, or faith?

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