Do you think that Christianity improves economic wellbeing?

Xeno.of.athens · Jun 25, 2023

Do you think that Christianity improves economic wellbeing?

In the scriptures there are passages that say things about economics.
What is said is controversial according to many.

In the scriptures there are passages that say things about laws and freedom.
How will countries that are poor benefit or not from scriptural teaching?

Carl Emerson · Jun 25, 2023

'Redemptive lift' would seem to be an outcome of communal love.

However the West seems to be so focussed on individual survival that such initiatives are rarely explored.

Xeno.of.athens · Jun 25, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
such initiatives are rarely explored.

Right; which is a pity.

Adventist Dissident · Jun 25, 2023

the policies discussed in the OT would help if implemented.

Philip_B · Jun 25, 2023

Carl Emerson · Jun 26, 2023

Philip_B said:
View attachment 332730

Well said...

bling · Jun 26, 2023

No, that is not the objective, nor is money needed.

Adventist Dissident · Jun 26, 2023

Philip_B said:
View attachment 332730

he needs to review the old and new Covenants. He clearly lacks an understanding of What God is trying to accomplish.

Xeno.of.athens · Jun 26, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
he needs to review the old and new Covenants. He clearly lacks an understanding of What God is trying to accomplish.

I think that God does not try, he does.

God will be justified and God will be shown to be just, God will also justify those who trust in him.

The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, says the scripture. Thus saint Clement of Alexandria is telling the truth.

Adventist Dissident · Jun 26, 2023

Xeno.of.athens said:
I think that God does not try, he does.

God will be justified and God will be shown to be just, God will also justify those who trust in him.

The love of money is the root of all kinds of evil, says the scripture. Thus saint Clement of Alexandria is telling the truth.

it shows you don't know what the NC is to accomplish. All of this is just justification.
"He who was rich became poor so that we could be come rich." 2 Cor 8:9,

"I have come that they might have life and have it more abundantly." John 10:10
Galatians 3:13: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,"
Notice it does not say the blessings are done away with.

Deutronomy 26:6-14
6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.
7 The LORD will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven.
8 The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.
9 The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in obedience to him.
10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you.
11 The LORD will grant you abundant prosperity—in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground—in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you.
12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none.
13 The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom.
14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.

2. Pet 1:4 By these he has given us very great and precious promises, so that through them you may share in the divine nature, escaping the corruption that is in the world .

Philip_B · Jun 26, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
he needs to review the old and new Covenants. He clearly lacks an understanding of What God is trying to accomplish.

Adventist Heretic said:
it shows you don't know what the NC is to accomplish. All of this is just justification.
"He who was rich became poor so that we could be come rich." 2 Cor 8:9,

"I have come that they might have life and have it more abundantly." John 10:10
Galatians 3:13: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us,"
Notice it does not say the blessings are done away with.

Deutronomy 26:6-14
6 You will be blessed when you come in and blessed when you go out.
7 The LORD will grant that the enemies who rise up against you will be defeated before you. They will come at you from one direction but flee from you in seven.
8 The LORD will send a blessing on your barns and on everything you put your hand to. The LORD your God will bless you in the land he is giving you.
9 The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in obedience to him.
10 Then all the peoples on earth will see that you are called by the name of the LORD, and they will fear you.
11 The LORD will grant you abundant prosperity—in the fruit of your womb, the young of your livestock and the crops of your ground—in the land he swore to your ancestors to give you.
12 The LORD will open the heavens, the storehouse of his bounty, to send rain on your land in season and to bless all the work of your hands. You will lend to many nations but will borrow from none.
13 The LORD will make you the head, not the tail. If you pay attention to the commands of the LORD your God that I give you this day and carefully follow them, you will always be at the top, never at the bottom.
14 Do not turn aside from any of the commands I give you today, to the right or to the left, following other gods and serving them.

2. Pet 1:4 By these he has given us very great and precious promises, so that through them you may share in the divine nature, escaping the corruption that is in the world .

I posted the meme of the Clement of Alexandria saying, not to be controversial, but rather to bring to bear some of the depth of the historical tradition of faith in which we stand. Clement of Alexandria sits in the post-Apostolic pre-Conciliar period of the Church. My view is that these folk were great pavers of the way, and they have much to teach us, rather than the other way around.

In the face of this, you have presented a defence of what is loosely described as the 'prosperity gospel' which in the main seeks to comfort the comfortable. There are too many horror stories of those promoting such views in our own age that we really don't need the wisdom of the past to guide us, but as if to remind us that there is nothing new under the sun, we have this from Clement of Alexandria suggesting that such views have been extant in the Church for a long time.

2 CORINTHIANS 8:1-15 said:
We want you to know, brothers and sisters, about the grace of God that has been granted to the churches of Macedonia; for during a severe ordeal of affliction, their abundant joy and their extreme poverty have overflowed in a wealth of generosity on their part. For, as I can testify, they voluntarily gave according to their means, and even beyond their means, begging us earnestly for the privilege of sharing in this ministry to the saints— and this, not merely as we expected; they gave themselves first to the Lord and, by the will of God, to us, so that we might urge Titus that, as he had already made a beginning, so he should also complete this generous undertaking among you. Now as you excel in everything—in faith, in speech, in knowledge, in utmost eagerness, and in our love for you—so we want you to excel also in this generous undertaking.
I do not say this as a command, but I am testing the genuineness of your love against the earnestness of others. For you know the generous act of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that by his poverty you might become rich. And in this matter I am giving my advice: it is appropriate for you who began last year not only to do something but even to desire to do something— now finish doing it, so that your eagerness may be matched by completing it according to your means. For if the eagerness is there, the gift is acceptable according to what one has—not according to what one does not have. I do not mean that there should be relief for others and pressure on you, but it is a question of a fair balance between your present abundance and their need, so that their abundance may be for your need, in order that there may be a fair balance. As it is written,
‘The one who had much did not have too much,
and the one who had little did not have too little.’

My view is that by using 2 Corinthians 8:9 as a solo verse rather than in the context of the passage you have applied a different meaning to it from that which its author intended. We are being exhorted to be rich in generosity, not to accumulate wealth.

Adventist Dissident · Jun 26, 2023

Philip_B said:
I posted the meme of the Clement of Alexandria saying, not to be controversial, but rather to bring to bear some of the depth of the historical tradition of faith in which we stand. Clement of Alexandria sits in the post-Apostolic pre-Conciliar period of the Church. My view is that these folk were great pavers of the way, and they have much to teach us, rather than the other way around.

In the face of this, you have presented a defence of what is loosely described as the 'prosperity gospel' which in the main seeks to comfort the comfortable. There are too many horror stories of those promoting such views in our own age that we really don't need the wisdom of the past to guide us, but as if to remind us that there is nothing new under the sun, we have this from Clement of Alexandria suggesting that such views have been extant in the Church for a long time.

My view is that by using 2 Corinthians 8:9 as a solo verse rather than in the context of the passage you have applied a different meaning to it from that which its author intended. We are being exhorted to be rich in generosity, not to accumulate wealth.

that is a fanciful interpretation, but it does not take into account the reason for generosity, it is because God is generous and will do good to us. Because God is generous to us we can be generous to others. our giving is based on His giving. This was the basis of much of the evangelism in the first few centuries. if you look at the Catholic Church it knew this. It incorporated All the trappings of the gods for power and prosperity were taken from the pagan gods and attributed to Christ. Christ is the mean and power to prosper, All authority has been given to him.

Now as to the "prosperity gospel" prosperity has always been part of God's promise to his covenant people. It was given to Adam in the form of a command "Be fruitful and Multiply" while in the Garden the ultimate example of prosperity gospel. Abraham who God made wealthy because of his faith. Solomon the wealthiest man who ever lived according to Scripture. The promise of a Land flowing with milk and honey. all those things are examples of Gods blessing on them. scripture says 'Beloved I want you to prosper and be in health AS YOUR SOUL DOES PROSPER" 3 John 1:2-4 It is because "God desires to give you the kingdom" and "to freely give you all Things" that you can be content in all situations. How else could you do that. If God did not want to bless you then why would you believe he would and be content? Nobody in their right mind would follow someone who did not do good by them and be able to supply their needs.

Carl Emerson · Jun 26, 2023

I do not believe 'Prosper' equates to CASH but rather Wellbeing.

Adventist Dissident · Jun 26, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
I do not believe 'Prosper' equates to CASH but rather Wellbeing.

you are getting what It is about. it may include cash, but it is about more then that. it is about returning us back to the Garden of Eden what was Lost under the 1st Adam is being Restored under the New Adam.

Adventist Dissident · Jun 26, 2023

Remember this thread is about the Question 'does Christianity improve economic wellbeing" so far I have not seen anyone answer that question directly, besides me.

Carl Emerson · Jun 26, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
Remember this thread is about the Question 'does Christianity improve economic wellbeing" so far I have not seen anyone answer that question directly, besides me.

Paul said this... Phil 4

I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

So Paul was not immune to being 'on the bread line'

Adventist Dissident · Jun 27, 2023

Carl Emerson said:
Paul said this... Phil 4

I have learned, in whatsoever state I am, therewith to be content.

12 I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

So Paul was not immune to being 'on the bread line.

I figured this passage would come up. But let's look at the context Paul is an apostle, is clearly called by God, he has a Divine anointing. At least pretty much guaranteed to go to heaven. If you have that kind of calling then you know that your life on this planet is taken care of until it's time for you to leave. Most people do not have that guarantee.

Now going back to the original post. Does Christianity economically benefit people and make them better off. I've yet to hear a direct answer from somebody other than myself. I'm going to assume that your answer is no.

If you think that's escaping this world is the goal how can you make life better for people if you're always trying to leave.

Carl Emerson · Jun 27, 2023

Adventist Heretic said:
I figured this passage would come up. But let's look at the context Paul is an apostle, is clearly called by God, he has a Divine anointing. At least pretty much guaranteed to go to heaven. If you have that kind of calling then you know that your life on this planet is taken care of until it's time for you to leave. Most people do not have that guarantee.

Now going back to the original post. Does Christianity economically benefit people and make them better off. I've yet to hear a direct answer from somebody other than myself. I'm going to assume that your answer is no.

If you think that's escaping this world is the goal how can you make life better for people if you're always trying to leave.

First point - My walk has been very much as you describe.

Second point - some are appointed to economic lift some are not.

Serving Him is the goal according to His pre-prepared works we are to walk in. I suspect many miss out on what they were created to do.

There is no escape in preferring His will.

Adventist Dissident · Jun 27, 2023

blessings are never apart from his will. that would be foolish.

who would reward someone for doing evil. that would be stupid.

bbbbbbb · Jun 28, 2023

Christianity does not increase the actual quantity of natural resources on earth. Its history indicates that, pretty much until the rise of capitalism and the Industrial Revolution (which may or may not be Christian, depending on one's POV) general economic conditions were relatively stable within Christendom. One can argue that the Protestant work ethic is directly based on the Bible, even as others argue that socialism is the true economic model of Christianity. Both have economic implications.

Do you think that Christianity improves economic wellbeing?

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