Questions on the extent of God’s sovereignty.

Hammster · Jun 6, 2023

I think we can all agree that God is sovereign. This thread is meant to try to explore the extent of His sovereignty. So to start, I pose these questions.

Does God know every action man might freely choose? If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose? Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

Halbhh · Jun 6, 2023

Hammster said:
Does God know every action man might freely choose?

I'd say yes, but...also there is another possibility that could be the case, one that is close but not quite the same:

As we can read:

"They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind." -- Jer 19:5

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” -- Genesis 6

Hammster said:
If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose?

Of course, yes.

Hammster said:
Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

Definitely, but....here it's assumed He already knows every moment what will happen next (a minute later) in our hearts, but that is the very question that is at issue, right?

While, actually God spoke that:

5 Thus says the Lord:
...
9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
-- Jer 17

And, really for many such verses we could just take the words to mean what they appear to say.

Apparently, this topic of what is foreknown (most things, all things, or just everything that actually matters, etc.) provokes some into heated arguments, which isn't my thing. But in Isaiah 46 we read that God will work to accomplish His planned and stated goals, and Christ said also that God works and is working.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 6, 2023

Hammster said:
I think we can all agree that God is sovereign. This thread is meant to try to explore the extent of His sovereignty. So to start, I pose these questions.

Does God know every action man might freely choose? If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose? Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

“ They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” (Jeremiah 19:5)

In terms of pre-cognition, at the very least our capacity for wickedness can surprise God who is without sin.

If God were able to see all things as they were happening now from the future, Jeremiah 19:5 would not be possible. So another conclusion must be examined.

Furthermore, those who are politically opposed to abortion, may wish to think twice about removing Jeremiah from their bible.

BobRyan · Jun 6, 2023

Hammster said:
I think we can all agree that God is sovereign. This thread is meant to try to explore the extent of His sovereignty. So to start, I pose these questions.

Does God know every action man might freely choose? If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose? Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

I start with the world view that

1. God knows everything, He knows what will happen and what could happen under some given scenario. Everything that ever did happen and everything that ever will happen.

2. God is all powerful and "can do" anything, as far as "having the ability to do it" is concerned.

3. Scripture says God sovereignly chose the free will system and you see that in Is 5:4 as well as Genesis 6, and the end of Matt 23, and John 1:10-11, and Genesis 3 and ....

God "sets boundaries" on how far off the rails the free will system is allowed to go - as can be seen at the flood and at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God put a "limit" on Egypt at the Exodus of Israel from Egypt.

Is 5:4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

God of course always knew of their failure to come - but still did everything with the rules for free will that He set for Israel - to save them.

Hammster · Jun 6, 2023

Halbhh said:
I'd say yes, but...also there is another possibility that could be the case, one that is close but not quite the same:

As we can read:

"They have built the high places of Baal to burn their children in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind." -- Jer 19:5

It doesn’t say that this caught God off guard. Only that the level of wickedness would ever come from God.

Halbhh said:
5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. 6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” -- Genesis 6

Yes, God can be grieved. But it doesn’t say that He didn’t know. So unless you are arguing for open theism, you’ll have to agree that these verses don’t mean what you seem to be implying.

Halbhh said:
Of course, yes.

Definitely, but....here it's assumed He already knows every moment what will happen next (a minute later) in our hearts, but that is the very question that is at issue, right?

While, actually God spoke that:

5 Thus says the Lord:
...
9 The heart is deceitful above all things,
and desperately sick;
who can understand it?
-- Jer 17

And, really for many such verses we could just take the words to mean what they appear to say.

Apparently, this topic of what is foreknown (most things, all things, or just everything that actually matters, etc.) provokes some into heated arguments, which isn't my thing. But in Isaiah 46 we read that God will work to accomplish His planned and stated goals, and Christ said also that God works and is working.

The root question has to do with what actions we might do, and if God can intervene in any way.

The bottom line is, imo, that God can accomplish His purpose either by intervention or by the natural course of events.

Hammster · Jun 6, 2023

Michael Collum said:
“ They have built the high places of Baal to burn their sons in the fire as offerings to Baal—something I did not command or mention, nor did it enter my mind.” (Jeremiah 19:5)

In terms of pre-cognition, at the very least our capacity for wickedness can surprise God who is without sin.

If God were able to see all things as they were happening now from the future, Jeremiah 19:5 would not be possible. So another conclusion must be examined.

Furthermore, those who are politically opposed to abortion, may wish to think twice about removing Jeremiah from their bible.

This sounds an awful lot like Open Theism.

Hammster · Jun 6, 2023

BobRyan said:
I start with the world view that

1. God knows everything, He knows what will happen and what could happen under some given scenario. Everything that ever did happen and everything that ever will happen.

Okay.

BobRyan said:
2. God is all powerful and "can do" anything, as far as "having the ability to do it" is concerned.

Okay.

BobRyan said:
3. Scripture says God sovereignly chose the free will system and you see that in Is 5:4 as well as Genesis 6, and the end of Matt 23, and John 1:10-11, and Genesis 3 and ....

Are you sure? Because next you say

BobRyan said:
God "sets boundaries" on how far off the rails the free will system is allowed to go - as can be seen at the flood and at the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. God put a "limit" on Egypt at the Exodus of Israel from Egypt.

That right there says that while our wills may appear free, they aren’t.

BobRyan said:
Is 5:4 What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?

God of course always knew of their failure to come - but still did everything with the rules for free will that He set for Israel - to save them.

Nothing about free will there. And unless you can show me these rules God must follow, I think you may want to use different terminology.

Halbhh · Jun 6, 2023

Hammster said:
It doesn’t say that this caught God off guard. Only that the level of wickedness would ever come from God.

Yes, God can be grieved. But it doesn’t say that He didn’t know. So unless you are arguing for open theism, you’ll have to agree that these verses don’t mean what you seem to be implying.

The root question has to do with what actions we might do, and if God can intervene in any way.

The bottom line is, imo, that God can accomplish His purpose either by intervention or by the natural course of events.

We definitely agree that God can accomplish His purpose either by intervention or by the natural course of events. I bet we agree that God can intervene at any moment. In Isaiah 46, we read about that really.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 6, 2023

Hammster said:
This sounds an awful lot like Open Theism.

I've been reading some Open Theism articles since you posted that, and I don't think it does.

However, more importantly, are you saying all scripture is not God breathed?

or are you saying that Jeremiah doesn't belong in the canon?

Halbhh · Jun 6, 2023

Hammster said:
It doesn’t say that this caught God off guard. Only that the level of wickedness would ever come from God.

Yes, God can be grieved. But it doesn’t say that He didn’t know. So unless you are arguing for open theism, you’ll have to agree that these verses don’t mean what you seem to be implying.

The root question has to do with what actions we might do, and if God can intervene in any way.

The bottom line is, imo, that God can accomplish His purpose either by intervention or by the natural course of events.

As I think of it, we cooperate with God, like a toddler holding their parent's hand and following. Without the parent, the toddler is simply lost pretty soon. We could never get past obstacles without Him.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 6, 2023

At transitional junctures in history God takes direct action against people who get in the way of His plans as they are starting. However, most of the time God doesn't get involved unless we pray.

Mark Quayle · Jun 6, 2023

To me, it's simple logic. If God is not first cause, he is not God, and is not omnipotent.

Since he is first cause, EVERYTHING THAT IS not God, descends via causation from him.

Sovereignty has (at least) two uses. One can be seen in the statement that one state is sovereign within its own lands, but not over another sovereign state. The other use means Absolute Sovereign, God, where no other 'sovereign' can rule this Sovereign, but this Sovereign rules ALL other things.

Mark Quayle · Jun 6, 2023

Michael Collum said:
At transitional junctures in history God takes direct action against people who get in the way of His plans as they are starting. However, most of the time God doesn't get involved unless we pray.

If God is intimately involved in every motion of every fact, (since all fact descended from his creating), then we have no way of knowing that he is not involved in some way, in anything. Do you suppose that reality is in and of itself a separate entity from God?

Hammster · Jun 6, 2023

Michael Collum said:
I've been reading some Open Theism articles since you posted that, and I don't think it does.

However, more importantly, are you saying all scripture is not God breathed?

or are you saying that Jeremiah doesn't belong in the canon?

I have no idea why you ask that question. To me, it’s akin to asking if I’ve stopped beating my wife yet. So you will have to explain what you think I believe that led you to asking the questions.

Gregory Thompson · Jun 6, 2023

Mark Quayle said:
If God is intimately involved in every motion of every fact, (since all fact descended from his creating), then we have no way of knowing that he is not involved in some way, in anything. Do you suppose that reality is in and of itself a separate entity from God?

Did God create sin?

Gregory Thompson · Jun 6, 2023

Hammster said:
I have no idea why you ask that question. To me, it’s akin to asking if I’ve stopped beating my wife yet. So you will have to explain what you think I believe that led you to asking the questions.

I quoted scripture, and instead of addressing the scripture and posting your interpretation of it. You attempted to end the conversation abruptly by applying a label.

So in fairness, kindly provide your interpretation of the Jeremiah verse.

Mark Quayle · Jun 6, 2023

Michael Collum said:
Did God create sin?

No. Did he cause that sin be? Yes. Did he intend that sin be? Yes. In every specific? Yes.

Do you think that sin is an accident? No. Or did God create, knowing absolutely everything that was coming? Yep.

But he created anyway, right? Yep.

One might be forgiven for concluding that God, knowing what was coming, but creating anyway, INTENDED what was coming!!! Yep.

Is God omniscient and omnipotent? Yes.

Did he have to do this because there was some principle to which he is subject? No.

Did he do this capriciously? No.

Hammster · Jun 6, 2023

Michael Collum said:
I quoted scripture, and instead of addressing the scripture and posting your interpretation of it. You attempted to end the conversation abruptly by applying a label.

So in fairness, kindly provide your interpretation of the Jeremiah verse.

I did.

SavedByGrace3 · Jun 6, 2023

Hammster said:
I think we can all agree that God is sovereign. This thread is meant to try to explore the extent of His sovereignty. So to start, I pose these questions.

Does God know every action man might freely choose? If so, can He let man do that action if it suits His purpose? Also, can He intervene to prevent man from performing that action?

I believe God imparted elements of His sovereignty into every created thing, animate or inanimate.
Everything has the right to exist and interact with every other thing. Spinning all together, it is called the course of nature. That includes us, we are subject to the course of nature. Somethings things happen to us that are merely the course of nature doing it's thing. A rock falls on your head. No purpose. No plan. No intent. Just an accident.
Of course He can intervene, but looking at the world around us, it is evident He does not.
The big mistake many people make is equating absolute sovereignty with total control. One can have total sovereignty without taking control of everything.

Hammster · Jun 6, 2023

SavedByGrace3 said:
I believe God imparted elements of His sovereignty into every created thing, animate or inanimate.
Everything has the right to exist and interact with every other thing. Spinning all together, it is called the course of nature. That includes us, we are subject to the course of nature. Somethings things happen to us that are merely the course of nature doing it's thing. A rock falls on your head. No purpose. No plan. No intent. Just an accident.
Of course He can intervene, but looking at the world around us, it is evident He does not.
The big mistake many people make is equating absolute sovereignty with total control. One can have total sovereignty without taking control of everything.

Can God choose to stop the rock from falling on your head?

Questions on the extent of God’s sovereignty.

Carpe Chaos

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Carpe Chaos

Carpe Chaos

Everything You say is Life to me

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Everything You say is Life to me

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Carpe Chaos

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Monergist; and by reputation, Reformed Calvinist

Carpe Chaos

Jesus is Lord of ALL! (Not asking permission)

Carpe Chaos

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