Elders

The Righterzpen · Mar 21, 2023

Hazelelponi said:
NVM...

? Not sure what that means.

Hazelelponi · Mar 21, 2023

The Righterzpen said:
? Not sure what that means.

It means nevermind. I decided against posting after I did so, so I deleted.

jameshjr · Mar 21, 2023

Vanellus said:
jameshjr,

I agree that God promises to bless those who obey Him - and that this applies to churches as well as individuals. What form does that blessing take? Prosperity gospel teaches that it is worldly material blessings. Of course there is much in the OT about abundance of crops but at this time people depended on the produce of the land in order to survive (as we do now but more remotely) - and I doubt that obesity was such a big problem back then (apart from the very rich maybe).

I am certainly not interested in myself or my churches material posessions, i mean blessed with more love for Jesus and new members.

Vanellus said:
A church could be doctrinally correct on such matters as you have raised yet lack love between its members. You have raised just one issue when there are so many.

I do not doubt the love between the members of my church. However, we have not increased in numbers in a long time. there are no younger people (average age of congregation over 70), and if we do not get young people to begin to take over the running of the church, then the church will close.
It seems to me, that the closer one is to the Lords word, then the more loving they will be.

Vanellus said:
So, again I don't think having (say) only male elders guarantees church growth and I feel you should abandon the idea: it's too much focus on just one issue.

I know that it is no guarantee, but it is my beleif, from my understanding of scripture, that it would be a step in the right direction. The alternative is to go on as well always have and hope for different results.

jameshjr · Mar 21, 2023

Thank you for the message.

WolfGate said:
My biggest advice for you is to recognize that since sincere Christians who believe the message of the gospel and seek to follow God's word disagree on many non-gospel issues, some are wrong on these types of issues despite their sincere beliefs. Since you are also a sincere Christian who believes the message of the gospel and seeks to follow God's word, then you are also likely wrong on some things you sincerely believe. All of us are almost certainly wrong on many non-gospel areas of our understanding and interpretation of scripture and we'll figure that out when we get to heaven. So approach this entire issue with your church from a point of humility

I agree with you to a point; however, it occurs to me that Paul did criticise 'his' churches over non gospel issues: why would he do this unless it was important?

Additionally, the appointment of male only elders seems to be well followed for nearly two thousand years (from my understanding) and has only changed since the advancement of feminism in mainstream culture (a non church origianted world view).

Let me ask you, if Paul were to see the mixed sex elders board at our church, would he be in favour or not?

jameshjr · Mar 21, 2023

Hazelelponi said:
From reading more of your posts in this thread, it does appear your membership is with a liberal church.

Churches now appear to be in one of two general camps. The more conservative only ordains men or has male pastors and elders, and the more liberal churches are ordaining women or having female pastors and elders, and in many cases will ordain or otherwise have practicing homosexuals in positions of leadership (elders, pastors) as well as perform gay marriages.

If you find yourself someone who is more conservative/traditional (as am I) you may consider gravitating to a more conservative church than the one you now attend.

These issues are splitting up entire denominations - so bringing it up to your church will likely not bring positive results.

Probably better to look for a church that teaches a traditional theology in practice.

Thank you for the message.

I agree that my church is ,relatively speaking, liberal (however, for the current state of the churches in the UK i would consider it more conservative).

Agreed, that i could find another church, however it does feel as though i have been called to my church for a particular reason and at least one other member of my church feels the same way. I think i will have to keep walking the road that i am on, until He moves me, or makes it obvious that i am to move.

jameshjr · Mar 21, 2023

Hello, thank you for the message.

Maria Billingsley said:
I used to be hung up on this but now I am certain that God welcomes men and women to preach the Gospel. Jesus Christ of Nazareth never said women are not qualified, as a matter of fact it was a woman who witnessed His resurrection first and spread the Good News to the rest of the Body. So it really is a waste of time and energy fighting about gender when so few attempt to step up to the position of leading the Flock into righteousness. At this point we have so many preaching a false Gospel we should be so lucky to find the truth among them. Judge the message not the messenger.
Blessings.

I agree up to a point. However, why would Paul make a point on a number of occassions to distinguish between the roles of men and women in churches.
This is the line of my thoughts recently: perhaps encouraging people to follow Gods word is the way of leading the flock into righteousness.
Remember we have the Holy spirit who will help us to discern the false teachers from the true ones.

jameshjr · Mar 21, 2023

WolfGate said:
Hazelponi - I do agree with your overall thought that the OP might in the end need to look for another church more in line with their conclusions. I don't think on the basis of this issue alone that we can conclude the OP's church is not theologically conservative, especially as it relates to having a high view of scripture or belief in bible inerrancy. There are some large denominations that are very conservative and align well with evangelical or even orthodox viewpoints except in one or two areas such as spiritual gifts or female clergy. Many of the charismatic churches fit that mold, but I've also seen some Calvinistic ones that do also. Regardless, the OP would know their other leanings and so your advice is a good thought for the OP.

To be honest, my church does not talk about theology. I have been there for a year and have maybe spoken with someone about theology three times. I assure you not once was their theology anything close to what you would call conservative.

The Righterzpen · Mar 21, 2023

Hazelelponi said:
It means nevermind. I decided against posting after I did so, so I deleted.

OK got ya!

Paidiske · Mar 21, 2023

A church where you've only heard "theology" three times in the last year seems to me to have bigger problems than women elders. What on earth is the content of the sermons like?

jameshjr · Mar 21, 2023

Paidiske said:
A church where you've only heard "theology" three times in the last year seems to me to have bigger problems than women elders. What on earth is the content of the sermons like?

Hello, we have a reverend split between two churches so we only hear him twice a month and the other weeks, we have a guest.

I think you may have misunderstood the post which you mentioned here. i said that i have spoken about theology around three times with members of my church in the church

My Reverends sermons are good to be honest; it just doesnt seem as though my church congregation talks about God with any depth. I wont repeat what was said in the theological discussions but it ranged from heresy to well known unbiblical catchphrases, and also an acknowledgement of being unwilling to invite people to church because they are not 'evangelists'

WolfGate · Mar 21, 2023

jameshjr said:
Thank you for the message.

I agree with you to a point; however, it occurs to me that Paul did criticise 'his' churches over non gospel issues: why would he do this unless it was important?

I never said such discussion (your term criticism) over non-gospel issues should not be had and was not important. I said be humble when you have those, because you will almost certainly be wrong on some issues. Proverbs 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom. Through my many years, which included quite a few as an elder in an evangelical church that did not allow women elders or pastors, I have certainly questioned peoples and leaders understanding of scripture. The interesting thing is, I have found through more study and listening and prayer, that there are times my conclusions changed on some of these non-essential issues - which alone supports that these discussions are important.

jameshjr said:
Additionally, the appointment of male only elders seems to be well followed for nearly two thousand years (from my understanding) and has only changed since the advancement of feminism in mainstream culture (a non church origianted world view).

I don't think it is that firm. The debate over women elders/church leadership has been going on long before feminism. One of the earliest indicators of the debate for which historical documentation remains was the Council of Laodecia around 350 years after Christ's death, which took the step of acknowledging that many churches had women elders and deciding that they could not be ordained. More recently, but still long before feminism, the Methodist church ordained their first woman in 1866. There are other indications of debate between those as well.

jameshjr said:
Let me ask you, if Paul were to see the mixed sex elders board at our church, would he be in favour or not?

Would be great if we could ask him - and we shall be able to some day. Were his comments directed to a church at that time with specific circumstances or intended to be universal for all time is the question he could answer that would significantly impact this whole debate. In either case, hearing him answer "why" would also be fascinating.

Maria Billingsley · Mar 21, 2023

jameshjr said:
Hello, thank you for the message.

I agree up to a point. However, why would Paul make a point on a number of occassions to distinguish between the roles of men and women in churches.
This is the line of my thoughts recently: perhaps encouraging people to follow Gods word is the way of leading the flock into righteousness.
Remember we have the Holy spirit who will help us to discern the false teachers from the true ones.

Yes, but what sin is being committed if a woman Pastors and preaches? Let us reason! Will the woman not be saved ?Will she not recieve rewards just as a man would? At some point we have to bring this into some form of common sense.

Vanellus · Mar 22, 2023

PloverWing said:
There appear to have been reasons for Paul to advise Timothy's church to have married men as elders in Timothy's particular church. Whether this restriction applies to churches other than Timothy's, and how to incorporate insights from other writings like Galatians 3 and Romans 16, is a matter of disagreement among Christians.

Is your church part of a larger denomination? If so, what is your denomination's view on permitting women and/or single people to serve as clergy? Do you agree or disagree with their reasoning?

What is the argument for saying the stipulation about elders being married men applied only to Timothy's church when there is a similar stipulation in the letter to Titus?

Timothy:
This is a trustworthy saying: If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3not dependent on wine, not violent but gentle, peaceable, and free of the love of money

Titus:
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, having children who are believers and who are not open to accusation of indiscretion or insubordination.

Paidiske · Mar 22, 2023

Given the forum this thread is in, it would be against the rules to get bogged down in debating one another on qualifications for leadership. The focus here is supposed to be on assisting the OP with his question.

jameshjr · Mar 22, 2023

Paidiske said:
Given the forum this thread is in, it would be against the rules to get bogged down in debating one another on qualifications for leadership. The focus here is supposed to be on assisting the OP with his question.

Agreed. My mind is made up on the issue, please message me privately if you feel strongly that i am wrong. thank you

jameshjr · Mar 22, 2023

WolfGate said:
I never said such discussion (your term criticism) over non-gospel issues should not be had and was not important. I said be humble when you have those, because you will almost certainly be wrong on some issues. Proverbs 11:2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom. Through my many years, which included quite a few as an elder in an evangelical church that did not allow women elders or pastors, I have certainly questioned peoples and leaders understanding of scripture. The interesting thing is, I have found through more study and listening and prayer, that there are times my conclusions changed on some of these non-essential issues - which alone supports that these discussions are important.

I appreciate that your experience and the wisdom that would come with it. Please keep in mind that i am 33 and have been a Christian for three years. I am not used to having these discussions or the best way to conduct myself during them. However, i think being honest is a good way forward; and i hope that i am genuinely addressing this as i feel it could be a way forward for my church: i do not mention it to my church at the moment as i do not want to cause contention with no good reason. Therefore getting opinions of saints whom have walked with the Lord for longer than I, is of great value to me.

WolfGate said:
I don't think it is that firm. The debate over women elders/church leadership has been going on long before feminism. One of the earliest indicators of the debate for which historical documentation remains was the Council of Laodecia around 350 years after Christ's death, which took the step of acknowledging that many churches had women elders and deciding that they could not be ordained. More recently, but still long before feminism, the Methodist church ordained their first woman in 1866. There are other indications of debate between those as well.

I was unaware of these examples and will look into them.

WolfGate said:
Would be great if we could ask him - and we shall be able to some day. Were his comments directed to a church at that time with specific circumstances or intended to be universal for all time is the question he could answer that would significantly impact this whole debate. In either case, hearing him answer "why" would also be fascinating.

Fair enough, but i find it hard to imagine that he would say anything other than what he wrote nearly two thousand years ago.

The why, i hope, would be that i believe that if we try to follow Gods word closely then we will be rewarded for this, and it could lead to our church growing.
One further reason i have for this is Pauls other writings on the roles of men and women, and i believe that an eldership of only men is in line with Gods ordering of the world and will therefore cause our church to be more in line with Gods will.

Vanellus · Mar 22, 2023

Paidiske said:
Given the forum this thread is in, it would be against the rules to get bogged down in debating one another on qualifications for leadership. The focus here is supposed to be on assisting the OP with his question.

I agree with the point about not getting bogged down but I wonder if this comment was prompted by my quoting the relevant Bible passages, as it was not the first response of anyone to someone, other than the OP author, in the thread.

jameshjr · Mar 22, 2023

Vanellus said:
I agree with the point about not getting bogged down but I wonder if this comment was prompted by my quoting the relevant Bible passages, as it was not the first response of anyone to someone, other than the OP author, in the thread.

I am in agreement with you. You have quoted Gods word, let it do what it set out to do.

Paidiske · Mar 22, 2023

Vanellus said:
I agree with the point about not getting bogged down but I wonder if this comment was prompted by my quoting the relevant Bible passages, as it was not the first response of anyone to someone, other than the OP author, in the thread.

No; it was prompted by your asking for a response from another member. In this forum we are supposed to answer the OP, not discuss or debate with one another. From the Statement of Purpose:

"We would ask that members direct their responses to the member who started the thread and refrain from debating one another's theological beliefs and viewpoints. Do not use this forum to debate with other Christians as that is not the purpose of the Requests for Christian Advice forum. If members would like to discuss/debate specific Christian theological doctrines, they should do so in one of the Theology forums."

I know from long experience that if the thread degenerates into debate or discussion that is not responding to the OP, it is likely to be closed, and that will quite defeat the purpose.

Should you wish to discuss the topic in one of the theology forums, I will be more than willing to answer your points there.

Vanellus · Mar 22, 2023

My post #33 wasn't the first time in the thread when someone responded to someone other than the author of the OP. Do you think the thread on not keeping the sabbath breached this rule?

Elders

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

:sighing:

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Clara bonam audax

Active Member

Senior Member

Well-Known Member

Newbie

Clara bonam audax

Active Member

Active Member

Newbie

Active Member

Clara bonam audax

Newbie

Similar threads