Israel Is In a Turmoil

durangodawood · Mar 9, 2023

Israel is in a turmoil as the governing right wing coalition wants to limit judicial review of proposed laws. I'm surprised these events have gone under the radar here. Maybe Christians arent as interested in Israel as they were in years past when end-time pastors would have the ear of the White House, etc.

Explainer: Uproar over Israeli judicial changes - what's it all about?

There's massive protests on many fronts. The country seems badly divided.

essentialsaltes · Mar 9, 2023

I thought this was interesting:

Fighter pilots in an elite Israeli Air Force squadron have vowed not to attend training, in an unprecedented protest against the government.
Nearly all of the 40 reservist pilots from 69th Squadron have refused to join a one-day training exercise this week.
It is seen as an unparalleled political move by some of Israel's most strategically important reservists.
It is also a sign of growing opposition to the ruling nationalist coalition's plans to overhaul the legal system.
One unnamed pilot told the Ynet news website that the squadron was "signalling that we won't be prepared to serve a dictatorial regime".

Separate from the judicial reforms, there has been a lot of tit for tat violence recently in the occupied territories among Israeli forces, settlers and Palestinians.

timothyu · Mar 9, 2023

"the bench is left-leaning and elitist and has become too interventionist in the political sphere, while often putting minority rights before national interests."
So the left is going all offended and wants to cancel any notion of people not catering to the fringe like what is happening in the DSA ?

ThatRobGuy · Mar 9, 2023

I've been following this story a bit.

What makes this a "sticky wicket" (in terms of foreign interpretation) is that Israel's ideological breakdown isn't divided along the same lines as ours. (We in the US tend to try to overlay other countries' political spectrum with our own). From my understanding there several major divides in terms of Israeli politics that ends up creating some "strange bedfellows" as sentiments of nationalism aren't uniquely isolated to one "political side" as they are in many other countries as their government has (at any given time) 6 different political factions well-represented in the Knesset...and there are various issues that 2 of the "left-leaning parties" may agree with 3 of the "right-leaning parties" on and vice versa.

Or, as Wikipedia words it:
Israeli politics are subject to unique circumstances and often defy simple classification in terms of the political spectrum. Groups are sometimes associated with the political left or right, especially in international circles, according to their stance on issues important to the Arab–Israeli conflict.

But it seems as if the current administration is making moves that basically negate the entire purpose of a judicial branch being a "check" on the other two branches, and that's agitated some people in all of the parties but his own. (and rightfully so)

So it's good to see that people from several of their political parties ("left" and "right") are coming together to protest these efforts.

ThatRobGuy · Mar 9, 2023

timothyu said:
"the bench is left-leaning and elitist and has become too interventionist in the political sphere, while often putting minority rights before national interests."
So the left is going all offended and wants to cancel any notion of people not catering to the fringe like what is happening in the DSA ?

Pardon my asking, but which DSA are you referring to? Democratic Socialists of America?

timothyu · Mar 9, 2023

ThatRobGuy said:
Pardon my asking, but which DSA are you referring to? Democratic Socialists of America?

Divided States of America

ThatRobGuy · Mar 9, 2023

timothyu said:
Divided States of America

I wasn't familiar with that particular version of the DSA acronym.

So with regards to what you quoted in your previous post "the bench is left leaning"...

Even if that is the case (and admittedly, I'm not an expert by any means on recent Israeli case law), isn't the approach of trying to basically neutering that branch of a government a bad thing in the long run?

From what I understand, one of the things he's trying to push through is that the legislative branch can basically overturn what the judicial branch says with a simple majority.

Wouldn't that defeat the purpose of even having a judicial branch? If it only takes a simply majority to pass law, and that same simple majority can overturn another branch tasked with keeping them in check, then what's the point of even having that branch?

For instance,

If 51 of 100 legislators vote to enact policy XYZ, and the court strikes it down, it's going to go back to that legislating body of 100 for review, and the same group of 51 who voted for it in the first place are going to vote to overturn the court's ruling.

wing2000 · Mar 9, 2023

ThatRobGuy said:
But it seems as if the current administration is making moves that basically negate the entire purpose of a judicial branch being a "check" on the other two branches, and that's agitated some people in all of the parties but his own. (and rightfully so)

...that's how I read it.

Michael Bloomberg recently opined:

In more than 20 years of public life, I have steadfastly supported Israel and its people in both word and deed, including by building medical facilities there, co-founding a leadership center, supporting its innovative local programs and funding other good causes. I have never gotten involved in its domestic politics or criticized its government initiatives. But my love for Israel, my respect for its people and my concern about its future are now leading me to speak out against the current government’s attempt to effectively abolish the nation’s independent judiciary.

Under the new coalition’s proposal, a simple majority of the Knesset could overrule the nation’s Supreme Court and run roughshod over individual rights, including on matters such as speech and press freedoms, equal rights for minorities and voting rights. The Knesset could even go as far as to declare that the laws it passes are unreviewable by the judiciary, a move that calls to mind Richard Nixon’s infamous phrase “When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government is courting disaster by trying to claim that same power, imperiling Israel’s alliances around the world, its security in the region, its economy at home and the very democracy upon which the country was built.

Opinion | Michael Bloomberg: Israel Is Courting Disaster

Netanyahu’s new government plan to overhaul the judiciary will harm Israel’s security, democracy and economy.

www.nytimes.com

timothyu · Mar 9, 2023

ThatRobGuy said:
Even if that is the case (and admittedly, I'm not an expert by any means on recent Israeli case law), isn't the approach of trying to basically neutering that branch of a government a bad thing in the long run?

Seems to be a matter of whose side is getting neutered

Pommer · Mar 9, 2023

timothyu said:
Seems to be a matter of whose side is getting neutered

Destabilizing one’s own government is not conducive to having a good existential outcome.

timothyu · Mar 9, 2023

Pommer said:
Destabilizing one’s own government is not conducive to having a good existential outcome.

Should your Supreme court be forced to remain neutral like intended?

ThatRobGuy · Mar 10, 2023

timothyu said:
Should your Supreme court be forced to remain neutral like intended?

Ideally, but the issue seems to be with the skewed perceptions.

IE: asserting that any ruling they make that's against one's own party's initiatives equates to "judicial activism"

While I don't have a deep familiarity with Israeli court/case history, based on observations from other nations with similar branch structures (like ours), people in the executive branch don't start toying with the notion of tinkering with the judicial branch unless they're trying to usurp power or unfairly tip the scales in favor of their own party.

It's not unlike the motivations people have for trying to increase the head counts and pack the courts. They're both aiming for the same ends of "making the judicial branch a non-obstacle for my agenda".

2PhiloVoid · Mar 10, 2023

durangodawood said:
Israel is in a turmoil as the governing right wing coalition wants to limit judicial review of proposed laws. I'm surprised these events have gone under the radar here. Maybe Christians arent as interested in Israel as they were in years past when end-time pastors would have the ear of the White House, etc.

Explainer: Uproar over Israeli judicial changes - what's it all about?

There's massive protests on many fronts. The country seems badly divided.

Well, not every Christian in the U.S. is a "Dispensationalist," so interest in Israel may vary in both kind and intensity.

durangodawood · Mar 10, 2023

timothyu said:
Should your Supreme court be forced to remain neutral like intended?

Remain neutral. Thats meaningless. Thoughtful people have ideological dispositions. All of them.

durangodawood · Mar 10, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
Well, not every Christian in the U.S. is a "Dispensationalist," so interest in Israel may vary in both kind and intensity.

They did seem very prominent in decades past. Perhaps they had political influence beyond their numbers.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 10, 2023

durangodawood said:
They did seem very prominent in decades past. Perhaps they had political influence beyond their numbers.

No, like most people, they've simply had interpretations and opinions that don't necessarily correspond with all of reality.

As for Israel, it's still the mess that it historically always has been. :dontcare:

durangodawood · Mar 10, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
No, like most people, they've simply had interpretations and opinions that don't necessarily correspond with all of reality.
....

No? Pastor Hagee had a rare sort of White House access in the Bush II era. I still wonder how much his spiritual "guidance" led Bush to acquiesce to the neocon agenda.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 10, 2023

durangodawood said:
No? Pastor Hagee had a rare sort of White House access in the Bush II era. I still wonder how much his spiritual "guidance" led Bush to acquiesce to the neocon agenda.

Did you just refer to Hagee? .............. oh my! :ahah:

Yes, along with Falwell and the rest of the "Righteous Right" of the 1980s (i.e. 'the Moral Majority'), folks like Hagee have had an occasional ear among presidents and congressmen. How very unfortunate ...

durangodawood · Mar 10, 2023

2PhiloVoid said:
Did you just refer to Hagee? .............. oh my!

Yes, along with Falwell and the rest of the "Righteous Right" of the 1980s (i.e. 'the Moral Majority'), folks like Hagee have had an occasional ear among presidents and congressmen. How very unfortunate ...

I did! People like to think that 20 years is over the rearward horizon. But influences and events of the time reverberate today. Historical karma.

Yeah, I am probably out of touch with the current Christian thinking on Israel.

2PhiloVoid · Mar 10, 2023

durangodawood said:
I did! People like to think that 20 years is over the rearward horizon. But influences and events of the time reverberate today. Historical karma.

Yeah, I am probably out of touch with the current Christian thinking on Israel.

There's never been "one particular" thinking among U.S. Christians where Israel is concerned. It's just that the Dispensationalist hype has gotten a lot of press since the 1970s and 80s.

But even it has morphed a bit over the past twenty to thirty years, especially since 9/11.

Israel Is In a Turmoil

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