Can people still die after the Millenium?

ViaCrucis · Mar 2, 2023

LW97Nils said:
Then why can't we see Him?

With faith we do, such as He gives Himself to us in the bread and the wine of His Supper, "This is My body".

But we walk not by sight but by faith, trusting in His promise: "See, I am with you always, even until the end of the age." (Matthew 28:20).

He reigns now, as Lord of lords, at the right hand of the Father in glory, until the end when He delivers all things to the Father, His glorious appearing and coming again as Judge of the living and the dead. Then, "every eye shall see Him". For He will return with the trumpet sound and archangel's shout, and the dead will be raised, and even we who are alive at His coming shall be caught up with them to meet the returning and glorious Lord in the air as He comes. So in that glorious new world that God shall make we will ever be with God, and He with us.

-CryptoLutheran

parousia70 · Mar 2, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
The Prophet Isaiah speaks of the Age to Come, the point he makes isn't that people will die, but that people will live.

So when Isaiah said "the Child shall die at 100 years old" he didn't mean what he said, and instead meant the exact opposite of what he said?

Are there any other passages you can think of where Isaiah (or any Prophet/Apostle) said/wrote something that actually means the exact opposite of what it says, or is this the only one?

How do you propose we are to discern which scriptures mean the exact opposite of what they say and which don't?

If the scripture we read just doesn't "feel right" as written, is that the time we are to apply a polar opposite meaning to it, so it makes the scripture "feel better" to us? Or is there some other criteria we need to apply?

ViaCrucis said:
the final enemy is death, which is destroyed at His coming, at the resurrection of the dead (1 Corinthians 15:54-56): Death is swallowed up in victory.

Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15:55-56 shows how the Raising of the Dead saints out of Hades is tied to the end of the OLD covenant age, not the end of the New Covenant Age. Paul writes:

The Death was swallowed up in victory. Where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW
--1 Cor 15:55-56

This simple passage (which all agree is the victory slogan at the time of the Raising of the Dead) clearly teaches that the victory over death came at the close of the MOSAIC LAW AGE wherein sin was still being imputed to the saints who were entangled in keeping the Law for righteousness.

While the Old testament Saints had the same faith as we, they did not have a removal of sin applied to them until the end of the Old Covenant Age -- whereupon they were immediately raised out of Hades into Heaven's Holy Temple. Today's believers have the same faith as they did, but we ALSO have been fully atoned for and sin is not imputed to us as Christ has taken it away from us (Hebrews 10:11-18). We never experience separation from God. Never.

Today, we are not still waiting for Christ to be victorious over death, and His present victory is also ours. Hades is empty and Heaven is OPEN for business and is now teeming with the saints and our own loved ones who have entered the heavenly abode as described in 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 and are enjoying heaven's bliss with Jesus and each other, and indeed are a great cloud of witnesses, cheering us on as we "Subdue Kingdoms and establish righteousness" just like the heros of Hebrews 11 did, everywhere we go!

Spiritual Jew · Mar 2, 2023

Maria Billingsley said:
Maybe I am ignorant on this matter but I see it as no Millennium period. No such thing. I see it as a Hebraism or a hyperbole indicating foreverness.

It's very clear that the thousand years has a beginning and an end, so I'm not sure why you would deny its existence altogether. You don't have to deny its existence in order be an Amil. You understand that, right?

Do you deny that Satan's little season will occur, too? If not, then when will it happen if not after the thousand years ends?

How do you interpret these verses:

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

These verses are very clear that the thousand years will end and then Satan will be loosed at that point. It couldn't possibly be more clear. Yet, you are trying to say that there is no thousand year period, assuming you understand that the "Millennium" is just a term used to reference the thousand years?

DavidPT · Mar 2, 2023

parousia70 said:
Paul's teaching in 1 Cor 15:55-56 shows how the Raising of the Dead saints out of Hades is tied to the end of the OLD covenant age, not the end of the New Covenant Age. Paul writes:

The Death was swallowed up in victory. Where, O Death, is thy sting? Where, O Hades is thy victory?' And the sting of the death is sin, AND THE POWER OF SIN IS THE LAW
--1 Cor 15:55-56

This simple passage (which all agree is the victory slogan at the time of the Raising of the Dead) clearly teaches that the victory over death came at the close of the MOSAIC LAW AGE wherein sin was still being imputed to the saints who were entangled in keeping the Law for righteousness.

While the Old testament Saints had the same faith as we, they did not have a removal of sin applied to them until the end of the Old Covenant Age -- whereupon they were immediately raised out of Hades into Heaven's Holy Temple. Today's believers have the same faith as they did, but we ALSO have been fully atoned for and sin is not imputed to us as Christ has taken it away from us (Hebrews 10:11-18). We never experience separation from God. Never.

Today, we are not still waiting for Christ to be victorious over death, and His present victory is also ours. Hades is empty and Heaven is OPEN for business and is now teeming with the saints and our own loved ones who have entered the heavenly abode as described in 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 and are enjoying heaven's bliss with Jesus and each other, and indeed are a great cloud of witnesses, cheering us on as we "Subdue Kingdoms and establish righteousness" just like the heros of Hebrews 11 did, everywhere we go!

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you altogether? But in the event I'm not, that passage indicates these things become so at the last trump. How could there have already been a last trump, in any sense, at the end of the old covenant age? Does not a last trump imply there are no more trumps after that?

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

What about this part---afterward they that are Christ's at his coming? Why would that not be involving the last trump? Obviously, the coming meant here is not meaning His first coming, nor is it meaning His resurrection. Nor is it meaning 70 AD. Thought I should throw that in here as well since Preterists are obsessed with that time period in particular. So then, if the coming meant in 1 Corinthians 15:23 can't pertain to any of those things I just listed, the only thing left is His bodily return in the end of this age. Which then is perfectly reasonable to apply the last trump to that event. It certainly makes better sense than applying the last trump to the old covenant age, when this would imply there are no more trumps following that.

Spiritual Jew · Mar 2, 2023

parousia70 said:
So when Isaiah said "the Child shall die at 100 years old" he didn't mean what he said, and instead meant the exact opposite of what he said?

Are there any other passages you can think of where Isaiah (or any Prophet/Apostle) said/wrote something that actually means the exact opposite of what it says, or is this the only one?

How do you propose we are to discern which scriptures mean the exact opposite of what they say and which don't?

Tell me, was John unaware of what Isaiah had written in Isaiah 65:17-25 regarding the new heavens and new earth? I'm sure he was not unaware of it. And, yet, he said this regarding the conditions of the new heavens and new earth:

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

So, did John not now what he was talking about when he said there would be no more death when he said there would be no more death at that point? Was he blatantly contradicting Isaiah? Or is it possible you are misinterpreting Isaiah? I think the latter.

Isaiah was describing eternity in a way that his readers could understand at the time. The concept of eternity was foreign to people in those days. It didn't become a concept that people could grasp until Jesus came to die for our sins and give us the hope of eternal life.

If you think Isaiah 65:20 implies that children would literally die at 100 years old when the new heavens and new earth are ushered in, then how do you explain this verse:

Isaiah 65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

If Isaiah 65:20 is talking about people dying then does that mean no one would mourn their deaths since it says in the previous verse "the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying"? Clearly, that would not make any sense. So, it seems that you are not taking all of scripture, including even the previous verse, into account when interpreting Isaiah 65:20.

Spiritual Jew · Mar 2, 2023

DavidPT said:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you altogether? But in the event I'm not, that passage indicates these things become so at the last trump. How could there have already been a last trump, in any sense, at the end of the old covenant age? Does not a last trump imply there are no more trumps after that?

Yes, it does imply that. But, since he is a nearly full preterist, he probably doesn't believe there are any trumpets after that.

DavidPT said:
1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

What about this part---afterward they that are Christ's at his coming? Why would that not be involving the last trump? Obviously, the coming meant here is not meaning His first coming, nor is it meaning His resurrection. Nor is it meaning 70 AD. Thought I should throw that in here as well since Preterists are obsessed with that time period in particular. So then, if the coming meant in 1 Corinthians 15:23 can't pertain to any of those things I just listed, the only thing left is His bodily return in the end of this age. Which then is perfectly reasonable to apply the last trump to that event. It certainly makes better sense than applying the last trump to the old covenant age, when this would imply there are no more trumps following that.

Good point. It indicates in 1 Cor 15:50-56 that the dead are raised at the last trumpet. And 1 Cor 15:23 indicates they are raised at His second coming. That obviously places the second trumpet at His second coming.

But, pariousia70 believes that the second coming took place in 70 AD and he thinks the old covenant age ended in 70 AD. But, that is false. Jesus did not come in 70 AD and the resurrection of the dead in Christ did not happen at that time. Also, the old covenant was made obsolete immediately upon Christ's death and the new covenant was established then as well. That is why the veil of the temple was torn in two. It symbolized the end of the old covenant when only the high priest could meet with God personally and the beginning of the new covenant when every person has direct access to God via the Holy Spirit dwelling in us.

sovereigngrace · Mar 2, 2023

LW97Nils said:
We like to think of that verse:
"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." Isaiah 65:20

Or in Brenton's Old Testament:
"Neither shall there be there any more a child that dies untimely, or an old man who shall not complete his time: for the youth shall be a hundred years old, and the sinner who dies at a hundred years shall also be accursed"

But is it in the Millenium? Let's just a few verses back:
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

So, it IS talking about the time after the Millenium - eternity. At least that's how I understand it.

We see also a distinction between those two phases - Millenium and eternity.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

I will confess I do not have the answer on that matter. Looks like God does not want us to know yet, yet it's interesting, since every scripture is important, isn't it? What is the end? The Greek word translated as "end" is "telos", which can also mean "a toll" or "a limit". It can refer to either the second coming, armaggedon, but it can also refer to the end of the Millenial Reign, which is described in Revelation 20:7-9.

Also, notice it states He will reign TILL all enemies are defeated, then He will deliver the kingdom up to the Father. Of course, it won't be until then that death will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). However, death, it seems, still seems to be there as a form of discipline. Notice that it is described as the last enemy that will be destroyed. Yes, death. Not Satan. Not the ungodly. Shouldn't that give us thinking? Like I said, I still lack of the answers.

Maybe we should read the Apocrypha. I am aware many oppose it. But it was widespread by the early church.

That are my thoughts so far. What are yours? Do you have a better explaination?

There is an easy fix. If you interpret Scripture with Scripture you will quickly find: "the end" ("telos", which can also mean "a toll" or "a limit") actually refers to the second coming, Armageddon," which also describes "the end of the Millennial Reign, which is described in Revelation 20:7-9.") They are the one and only climactic event.

sovereigngrace · Mar 2, 2023

LW97Nils said:
Then why can't we see Him?

He is reigning in heaven.

Maria Billingsley · Mar 2, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
It's very clear that the thousand years has a beginning and an end, so I'm not sure why you would deny its existence altogether. You don't have to deny its existence in order be an Amil. You understand that, right?

Do you deny that Satan's little season will occur, too? If not, then when will it happen if not after the thousand years ends?

How do you interpret these verses:

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loose

Thanks for sharing! Here are my answers.
It's very clear that the thousand years has a beginning and an end, so I'm not sure why you would deny its existence altogether. You don't have to deny its existence in order be an Amil. You understand that, right?
I understand the Amil view as an undetermined amount of time and not a literal 1000 years, so it can't be considered millennial. That time frame is forever as we have a King right now and forever and He rules right now and forever. I do believe there will be a New Jerusalem after the judgment day and this will happen in a "twinkle of an eye".

Do you deny that Satan's little season will occur, too? If not, then when will it happen if not after the thousand years ends?

I do not deny that he has influence on the flesh and that the adversary is with us while we are in the flesh. But I take it as an undetermined amount of time until the end when he will be cast into the LOF.

How do you interpret these verses:

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The binding of Satan represents the victory of Jesus Christ of Nazareth over the powers of darkness accomplished on the cross. This can not change. So the loosing of Satan is symbolic for his ability to still attack the flesh because of its weakness however, the spirit is untouchable. This has always been the case and will happen until he is thrown into the LOF. It doesn't have to be only for 1000 years.

Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

These verses are very clear that the thousand years will end and then Satan will be loosed at that point. It couldn't possibly be more clear. Yet, you are trying to say that there is no thousand year period, assuming you understand that the "Millennium" is just a term used to reference the thousand years?

Yes, I will stick to no 1000 year reign and keep it at an undetermined amount of time until the end.

parousia70 · Mar 2, 2023

DavidPT said:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you altogether?

Likely.

DavidPT said:
But in the event I'm not, that passage indicates these things become so at the last trump.

The passage does not mention the last trump. I get that you personally infer the connection, but it seems disengenous to clam "the passage indicates it".

What about this part---afterward they that are Christ's at his coming? Why would that not be involving the last trump? Obviously, the coming meant here is not meaning His first coming, nor is it meaning His resurrection. Nor is it meaning 70 AD.

I maintain it is the same coming as Matthew 21:40-45

Thought I should throw that in here as well since Preterists are obsessed with that time period in particular. So then, if the coming meant in 1 Corinthians 15:23 can't pertain to any of those things I just listed, the only thing left is His bodily return in the end of this age. Which then is perfectly reasonable to apply the last trump to that event. It certainly makes better sense than applying the last trump to the old covenant age, when this would imply there are no more trumps following that.

Paul ties this victory to the end of the LAW. and we can agree the Law has ended, so.....

We all agree the Dead are no longer in Hades and were "raised" to heaven sometime in the 1st century, do we not?

parousia70 · Mar 2, 2023

Spiritual Jew said:
Tell me, was John unaware of what Isaiah had written in Isaiah 65:17-25 regarding the new heavens and new earth? I'm sure he was not unaware of it. And, yet, he said this regarding the conditions of the new heavens and new earth:

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes;

All Tears?
Even tears of Joy?
So we won't be allowed or able to cry tears of Joy in the New H&E?
Just an even keel, super-prozac like existence?
I don't buy it.

Spiritual Jew said:
and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

In the context of Old Covenant Heavens and Earth that began with Moses in the desert (Isaiah 51:16), and were then subsequently shaken and removed in the first century (Hebrews 12:26) vs. the now present New Covenant Heavens and Earth that arrived in the 1st century and cannot be shaken (Hebrews 12:28), those former things are indeed passed away and are no more today.

Was I sorrowful and did I shed some tears when I had to put my 17 year old cat to sleep last week, yes I did. Much of those tears were tears of Joy for a life well lived and tears of gratitude for a companion well loved. I reject the notion that we won't get to feel those amazing things and express the range of God given emotions that are so rich and beautiful and rewarding and valuable in some future "even keel utopia".

That's not what this passage is referring to. It is referring to the covenental Death, Sorrow and crying that God's people experienced when Physical Death = separation from God because there was no removal of Sin applied to us. It's not saying we will no longer get to experience the full range of emotions God has gifted and blessed us with. Most of my greatest growth in faith and understanding has come from the heaviest tears I have shed. They are a blessing and God "wipes them away" for me today Just like John said He would. Does God not wipe away your tears today? That would be very sad indeed if He dosen't currently do that for you. He will, if you let Him.

Jesus said "He who believes in me and lives SHALL NEVER DIE. Do you believe this?"

I do. Do you?

I trust you agree that this is a present reality He has already ushered in for believers.
And I understand he didn't mean "He who believes in me and lives shall never physically die".
Do you?

sovereigngrace · Mar 2, 2023

parousia70 said:
Even tears of Joy? So we won't be allowed or able to cry tears of Joy in the New H&E? just an even keel, prozac like existence?
I don't buy it.

In the context of Old Covenant vs. New, those things are indeed passed away and are no more today.

Was I sorrowful and did I shed some tears when I had to put my 17 year old cat to sleep last week, yes I did.

That's not what this passage is referring to. It is referring to the covenental Death, Sorrow and crying people experienced when Physical Death = separation from God because there was no removal of Sin applied to us. It's not saying we will no longer get to experience the full range of emotions God blessed us with. Most of my greatest growth in faith and understanding has come from the heaviest tears I have shed. They are a blessing and God "wipes them away" for me today Just like John said He would. Does God not wipe away your tears today? That would be very sad indeed if He dosen't currently do that for you.

Jesus said "He who believes in me and lives SHALL NEVER DIE. Do you believe this?"

I do. Do you?

I trust you agree that this is a present reality He has already ushered in for believers.
And I understand he didn't mean "shall never physically die". Do you?

Regardless of what you have been taught, tears will be expressly wiped away. This did not happen in AD70. Death will be finally banished. This did not happen in AD70. The curse (the bondage of corruption) that is all around us will be eternally removed. This did not happen in AD70. This forbids your whole thesis and fixation with Titus and AD70.

parousia70 · Mar 2, 2023

sovereigngrace said:
Regardless of what you have been taught, tears will be expressly wiped away.

I'm sad for you that God does not expressly wipe your tears away today like He does for me.
He will, right now, if you let Him. You don't have to wait for it. It's available for you, today.

DavidPT · Mar 2, 2023

parousia70 said:
The passage does not mention the last trump. I get that you personally infer the connection, but it seems disengenous to clam "the passage indicates it".

Let's try and get on the same page then. What I was responding to is in regards to1 Corinthians 15:55-56 you brought up. Here are those verses below. And then I pointed out that--afterward they that are Christ's at his coming(1 Corinthians 15:23)---this is meaning during the last trump.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

And here are these verses in context.

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Which is then why I indicated this passage involves the last trump. First we are told this in verse 52---In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Then in the verses you supplied, we are told this a verse earlier---So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. But Paul didn't stop there. He went on to say---O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ--thus connecting with these earlier verses, 51-54.

Verse 53 tells us---For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. And that verses 54-56 tell us once this is accomplished, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. Where it appears Paul is likely quoting from Isaiah 25.

And that verse 52 tells us when these things are accomplished---In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump

The reason why death is swallowed up in victory at the last trump is because instead of remaining bodily dead, one becomes bodily alive again, this time for forever. But in this context this is only being applied to the saved and not the lost as well, since it would be ludicrous to apply verse 57 to the lost that are going to be cast into the LOF eventually. As if it makes sense that anyone that will get cast into the LOF, they are grateful to God for this, and that this gives them victory through Lord Jesus Christ.

sovereigngrace · Mar 2, 2023

parousia70 said:
retunrsI'm sad for you that God does not expressly wipe your tears away today like He does for me.
He will, right now, if you let Him. You don't have to wait for it. It's available for you, today.

You truly miss both the meaning and timing of multiple end-times passages like this due to your misguided fixation with Titus and AD70. To imagine we are now in eternity and the NHNE is delusionary. We reside in time and we inhabit a fallen earth. The curse is still alive and kicking. Sinners sin, which brings death, and death produces sorrow. Sorrow then brings tears. To deny that is to deny reality. This will all end when Jesus returns in the future to judge mankind in righteousness and banish corruption from the earth.

parousia70 · Mar 2, 2023

DavidPT said:
Let's try and get on the same page then. What I was responding to is in regards to1 Corinthians 15:55-56 you brought up. Here are those verses below. And then I pointed out that--afterward they that are Christ's at his coming(1 Corinthians 15:23)---this is meaning during the last trump.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

And here are these verses in context.

1 Corinthians 15:51 ¶Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Which is then why I indicated this passage involves the last trump. First we are told this in verse 52---In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Then in the verses you supplied, we are told this a verse earlier---So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. But Paul didn't stop there. He went on to say---O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ--thus connecting with these earlier verses, 51-54.

Verse 53 tells us---For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. And that verses 54-56 tell us once this is accomplished, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. Where it appears Paul is likely quoting from Isaiah 25.

And that verse 52 tells us when these things are accomplished---In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump

The reason why death is swallowed up in victory at the last trump is because instead of remaining bodily dead, one becomes bodily alive again, this time for forever. But in this context this is only being applied to the saved and not the lost as well, since it would be ludicrous to apply verse 57 to the lost that are going to be cast into the LOF eventually. As if it makes sense that anyone that will get cast into the LOF, they are grateful to God for this, and that this gives them victory through Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul ties all of this to the end of the law.

Are you saying the law is still extant and in effect?

Or was Paul simply mistaken about that part?

Zao is life · Mar 3, 2023

LW97Nils said:
We like to think of that verse:
"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed." Isaiah 65:20

Or in Brenton's Old Testament:
"Neither shall there be there any more a child that dies untimely, or an old man who shall not complete his time: for the youth shall be a hundred years old, and the sinner who dies at a hundred years shall also be accursed"

But is it in the Millenium? Let's just a few verses back:
"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying."

So, it IS talking about the time after the Millenium - eternity. At least that's how I understand it.

We see also a distinction between those two phases - Millenium and eternity.

"Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all." 1 Corinthians 15:24-28

I will confess I do not have the answer on that matter. Looks like God does not want us to know yet, yet it's interesting, since every scripture is important, isn't it? What is the end? The Greek word translated as "end" is "telos", which can also mean "a toll" or "a limit". It can refer to either the second coming, armaggedon, but it can also refer to the end of the Millenial Reign, which is described in Revelation 20:7-9.

Also, notice it states He will reign TILL all enemies are defeated, then He will deliver the kingdom up to the Father. Of course, it won't be until then that death will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). However, death, it seems, still seems to be there as a form of discipline. Notice that it is described as the last enemy that will be destroyed. Yes, death. Not Satan. Not the ungodly. Shouldn't that give us thinking? Like I said, I still lack of the answers.

Maybe we should read the Apocrypha. I am aware many oppose it. But it was widespread by the early church.

That are my thoughts so far. What are yours? Do you have a better explaination?

So this is how I see it: Jesus is not only the Son of God. He is also the Son of man:

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after our likeness.
And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea,
and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle,
and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth.”
(Genesis 1:26)

Psalm 8:3-9
"When I look at Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars which You have established;
what is man that You are mindful of him, and the son of man, that You visit him?
For You have made him a little lower than the angels, and have crowned him with glory and honor.
You made him rule over the works of Your hands; You have put all things under his feet:
all sheep and oxen, yes, and the beasts of the field;
the birds of the heavens, and the fish of the sea, and all that pass through the paths of the seas.
O Jehovah, our Lord, how excellent is Your name in all the earth!"

Matthew 11
27 All things are delivered to Me by My Father. And no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son will reveal Him.

"The Son of man" also means "representative of man". Jesus, the Son of man, represents man to God (Hebrews 6:20), and Jesus, the Son of God, represents God to man (Hebrews 1:3).

It's only the dominion given to man, i.e to the Son of man that will be given back to the Father by the Son of man. But Jesus is also God. The Son of God is God (John 1:1). So God will be all things in all (1 Corinthians 15:28).

I don't know how much we are supposed to take literally in Isaiah 65:20. The 'child' and the person mentioned are both 100 years old. NetFree translation translates it as

"Never again will one of her infants live just a few days or an old man die before his time. Indeed, no one will die before the age of a hundred, anyone who fails to reach the age of a hundred will be considered cursed."

Psalm 49-7-12 (NetFree)
"Certainly a man cannot rescue his brother; he cannot pay God an adequate ransom price (the ransom price for a human life is too high, and people go to their final destiny),
so that he might continue to live forever and not experience death.
Surely one sees that even wise people die; fools and spiritually insensitive people all pass away and leave their wealth to others.
Their grave becomes their permanent residence, their eternal dwelling place. They name their lands after themselves, but, despite their wealth, people do not last, they are like animals that perish."

Living forever seems to be a foreign concept to the Old Testament, only Daniel 12:2 mentions it, and links it to the resurrection of the dead.

So the prophet Isaiah was inspired to write about the long life he saw as marking the new heavens and new earth, but in terms of Old Testament Hebrew thought, everyone dies and remains in the grave. The resurrection is not mentioned in Isaiah 65, which is written in the context of comparing the curses to come upon the unfaithful among God's elect with the blessings to come to the faithful.

So the prophet could see afar off, but was not given a clear picture of the eternal life that follows the resurrection of the dead. This also explains why we are told in the New Testament that death is the final enemy to be destroyed.

So that's how I see it, anyway - but I always try to place myself in the shoes of the prophet, to understand what in his Hebrew mind he believed he was seeing when the Holy Spirit was inspiring him to prophesy.

Andrewn · Mar 3, 2023

parousia70 said:
Today, we are not still waiting for Christ to be victorious over death, and His present victory is also ours. Hades is empty and Heaven is OPEN for business and is now teeming with the saints and our own loved ones who have entered the heavenly abode as described in 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 and are enjoying heaven's bliss with Jesus and each other, and indeed are a great cloud of witnesses,

Is it your belief that Christians receive soma pneumaticon immediately after death and before the resurrection of the soma psychicon? But Jesus' physical body was "changed" rather than replaced. And you also say that Hades is empty. What happens to those who are unsaved?

claninja · Mar 3, 2023

DavidPT said:
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you altogether? But in the event I'm not, that passage indicates these things become so at the last trump. How could there have already been a last trump, in any sense, at the end of the old covenant age? Does not a last trump imply there are no more trumps after that?

1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

What about this part---afterward they that are Christ's at his coming? Why would that not be involving the last trump? Obviously, the coming meant here is not meaning His first coming, nor is it meaning His resurrection. Nor is it meaning 70 AD. Thought I should throw that in here as well since Preterists are obsessed with that time period in particular. So then, if the coming meant in 1 Corinthians 15:23 can't pertain to any of those things I just listed, the only thing left is His bodily return in the end of this age. Which then is perfectly reasonable to apply the last trump to that event. It certainly makes better sense than applying the last trump to the old covenant age, when this would imply there are no more trumps following that.

Paul states hades has no more victory when the perishable puts on the imperishable.

“54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.”55“O death, where is your sting? O hades, where is your victory?

Paul ties the power and sting of death and sin to the “law”

“The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.”

I personally believe the saints “rise” to heaven upon death and not hades (hades has no more victory over the saints), and that the law has no more power over the saints. Much of the present day church believes this same thing, and that this transition took place in the first century.

parousia70 · Mar 3, 2023

Andrewn said:
Is it your belief that Christians receive soma pneumaticon immediately after death and before the resurrection of the soma psychicon? But Jesus' physical body was "changed" rather than replaced.

I believe it's soma pneumatikon and soma psychikon. Normally I'm not a stickler for spelling and typos, but big fancy words like that deserve to be spelled correctly if you're going to throw them around like that, IMO. When they aren't, it comes across as someone merely trying to appear intellectual.
Believers Today who Die go directly to the presence of God in Heaven. The mechanics of HOW that happens I'm not dogmatic about at all.

I do not follw the Jesus body changed vs replaced comment though.... was that a comment or a question?
In the Revelation, John describes Jesus' Heavenly Resurrected and Ascended Body as a 7 eyed, 7 horned Lamb... would you say Jesus' Body was Physically "changed" from it's Human form into the 7 eyed, 7 horned Lamb, or was it Replaced?

Andrewn said:
And you also say that Hades is empty. What happens to those who are unsaved?

Unbelievers wo die today are prevented from entering God's presence, again the mechanics behind HOW that happens, I'm not dogmatic about. I'm fully content that God has it under control and any need or deisre of mine to understand HOW is irrelevant to the salvific reposition that is in His hands.

Can people still die after the Millenium?

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