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Saddleback Church (Orange County CA megachurch) ejected from Southern Baptist Convention for ordaining women

essentialsaltes

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Two years ago, an Orange County megachurch took a stand that pitted it against conservative members of its denomination. It ordained three women as pastors.

Now, the Southern Baptist Convention has ousted Saddleback Church, its second-largest congregation.

The Lake Forest-based evangelical church, founded by popular pastor and author Rick Warren, is one of the largest churches in the United States [14 campuses in California, and four others in Germany, Philippines, Argentina and China.]. It was among five congregations found not to be “in friendly cooperation” with the convention because they “have a female functioning in the office of pastor,” according to a statement from Jared Wellman, chairman of the convention’s executive committee.

It also ousted a sixth church, Freedom Church in Vero, Fla., for “lack of intent to cooperate in resolving concerns regarding a sexual abuse allegation.”

In 2000, the Southern Baptist Convention added the ban on female pastors to its Faith and Message doctrine.
 
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PloverWing

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Unfortunate, but not overly surprising. Opposition to women was one of the major issues in the far-right takeover of the SBC that happened in the 1980s. Maybe Saddleback will re-affiliate with a group like the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship or the American Baptists, where they're a better fit.
 
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Landon Caeli

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Two years ago, an Orange County megachurch took a stand that pitted it against conservative members of its denomination. It ordained three women as pastors.

Now, the Southern Baptist Convention has ousted Saddleback Church, its second-largest congregation.

The Lake Forest-based evangelical church, founded by popular pastor and author Rick Warren, is one of the largest churches in the United States [14 campuses in California, and four others in Germany, Philippines, Argentina and China.]. It was among five congregations found not to be “in friendly cooperation” with the convention because they “have a female functioning in the office of pastor,” according to a statement from Jared Wellman, chairman of the convention’s executive committee.

It also ousted a sixth church, Freedom Church in Vero, Fla., for “lack of intent to cooperate in resolving concerns regarding a sexual abuse allegation.”

In 2000, the Southern Baptist Convention added the ban on female pastors to its Faith and Message doctrine.

I think I've seen Saddleback, on my way to O'Neil Regional Park, where I like to camp sometimes. That part of OC is really laid back and nice.
 
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Tuur

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Two years ago, an Orange County megachurch took a stand that pitted it against conservative members of its denomination. It ordained three women as pastors.

Now, the Southern Baptist Convention has ousted Saddleback Church, its second-largest congregation.

The Lake Forest-based evangelical church, founded by popular pastor and author Rick Warren, is one of the largest churches in the United States [14 campuses in California, and four others in Germany, Philippines, Argentina and China.]. It was among five congregations found not to be “in friendly cooperation” with the convention because they “have a female functioning in the office of pastor,” according to a statement from Jared Wellman, chairman of the convention’s executive committee.

It also ousted a sixth church, Freedom Church in Vero, Fla., for “lack of intent to cooperate in resolving concerns regarding a sexual abuse allegation.”

In 2000, the Southern Baptist Convention added the ban on female pastors to its Faith and Message doctrine.
Cue the howls of outrage.

The question on the ordination of women centers on the qualifications of those in the ministry given by the Apostle Paul. That is the point of contention and that should be the main focus of discussion.
 
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Tuur

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Doesn't surprise me, SBC has been shrinking it's circle for a while now.
Ironically, the problems I have with the SBC are things that don't seem to get much public mention. For some time I suspected it's become more of a sales arm for Lifeway than anything else. It has been alleged a few short years ago that money was taken from the cooperative fund to help swing a convention election toward moderates. Before that, the Georgia Baptist Convention, a member of the SBC, came out against blogging about goings on in the SBC. Response to concerns about goings on allegedly netted a "don't pay attention to politics" rebuff. In between, the convention seems more about passing resolutions that virtue signal.

I'm sure it's been mentioned on this forum that the SBC is under investigation due to allegations of sexual abuse. Given the structure of the SBC, a coalition of churches rather than hierarchy, I'm not sure what could have been done on the convention level.
 
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Tuur

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I'm not seeing any, so it's good of you to try to imagine them into being.
Haven't seen much support for the SBC in the posts. Ironically, this particular issue is a doctrinal one, and should be approached as such.
 
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The Liturgist

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Unfortunate, but not overly surprising. Opposition to women was one of the major issues in the far-right takeover of the SBC that happened in the 1980s.

How is it unfortunate? I think its a good thing that people have a choice in churches.

Also, I don’t think the SBC can be accused of “opposition to women” given the large number of enthusiastic women who are members of their own accord. There are a great many women who actually prefer having male pastors. I would also note that it was the large number of enthusiastic women from the SBC and the Roman Catholic Church who in unity marched for fifty years in protest against Roe v. Wade who represented the backbone of the Pro-Life Movement.
 
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PloverWing

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How is it unfortunate? I think its a good thing that people have a choice in churches.

It's unfortunate, because when I was growing up as a Southern Baptist, individuals and congregations were allowed a wider range of beliefs and practices. As regards this particular issue, some SBC congregations ordained women as deacons and pastors, and others did not. In the 1980s, the SBC began removing some of this liberty, on this and other issues. The current version of the Baptist Faith and Message (Baptist Faith & Message 2000 - The Baptist Faith and Message) prohibits women from serving in the SBC as pastors, and some congregations who do not conform to this policy have been expelled from the SBC, as we saw in the OP. So in the current SBC, we're seeing both a loss of the talents of people who would make great pastors, and a loss of some congregational autonomy.

Also, I don’t think the SBC can be accused of “opposition to women” given the large number of enthusiastic women who are members of their own accord. There are a great many women who actually prefer having male pastors. I would also note that it was the large number of enthusiastic women from the SBC and the Roman Catholic Church who in unity marched for fifty years in protest against Roe v. Wade who represented the backbone of the Pro-Life Movement.

"Opposition to women" was somewhat snarky wording on my part. To speak more precisely, there is opposition to women as pastors and opposition to egalitarian marriage.
 
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The Liturgist

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It's unfortunate, because when I was growing up as a Southern Baptist, individuals and congregations were allowed a wider range of beliefs and practices. As regards this particular issue, some SBC congregations ordained women as deacons and pastors, and others did not. In the 1980s, the SBC began removing some of this liberty, on this and other issues. The current version of the Baptist Faith and Message (Baptist Faith & Message 2000 - The Baptist Faith and Message) prohibits women from serving in the SBC as pastors, and some congregations who do not conform to this policy have been expelled from the SBC, as we saw in the OP. So in the current SBC, we're seeing both a loss of the talents of people who would make great pastors, and a loss of some congregational autonomy.

For congregations who want to ordain women, there is the American Baptist Church and the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, as you pointed out. Unlike with the Episcopal Church USA the SBC has not spent $50,000,000 in legal fees in an effort to prevent conservatives from leaving (without losing the church buildings they grew up in). Indeed for that matter, neither have the PCUSA, or the ELCA, the latter having an episcopal polity.

In this case the SBC is functioning the way I think most denominations should: by including autonomous local church units that espouse beliefs consistent with its values, and excluding those whose beliefs are inconsistent with the clearly defined values of the denomination (in the case of the SBC, each local church is effectively equivalent to a diocese because of the Congregational polity, and the annual Convention itself is like the meeting of a diocesan synod).

The problem with the “old SBC” you seem nostalgic for is that we don’t really need another Baptist convention with liberal or moderate beliefs; permitting Saddleback to remain would cause a schism in the largest Protestant denomination in the US by compromising their values.

"Opposition to women" was somewhat snarky wording on my part. To speak more precisely, there is opposition to women as pastors and opposition to egalitarian marriage.

Well, precisely, and the problem is, there are women who are devout and enthusiastic members of the SBC. Indeed the people who keep most churches running and attend services with the greatest reliability, regardless of denomination, tend to be women.*

*Indeed even on pilgrimages to monasteries I have never been to a church service where most or all of those present were men, due to the large number of female pilgrims one inevitably encounters.
 
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PloverWing

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For congregations who want to ordain women, there is the American Baptist Church and the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, as you pointed out. Unlike with the Episcopal Church USA the SBC has not spent $50,000,000 in legal fees in an effort to prevent conservatives from leaving (without losing the church buildings they grew up in). Indeed for that matter, neither have the PCUSA, or the ELCA, the latter having an episcopal polity.

In this case the SBC is functioning the way I think most denominations should: by including autonomous local church units that espouse beliefs consistent with its values, and excluding those whose beliefs are inconsistent with the clearly defined values of the denomination (in the case of the SBC, each local church is effectively equivalent to a diocese because of the Congregational polity, and the annual Convention itself is like the meeting of a diocesan synod).

I think what you're chiefly arguing for is church policies that provide a procedure by which a congregation can easily secede from its denomination, when the national denomination moves in a direction that the congregation disagrees with. Possibly, you're arguing for congregational polity.

I think you're also arguing (by your frequent references to the Episcopal Church's legal woes) that churches in the US should have legal documents that clearly state that church buildings and their furnishings belong to the congregation and not to the national church. The lack of legal clarity regarding property ownership is part of what led to the lawsuits.

The problem with the “old SBC” you seem nostalgic for is that we don’t really need another Baptist convention with liberal or moderate beliefs; permitting Saddleback to remain would cause a schism in the largest Protestant denomination in the US by compromising their values.

Well, but there were also Baptist groups like the Conservative Baptists and the General Association of Regular Baptists that the Pressler/Patterson faction could have joined. So maybe we didn't really need another Baptist convention that enforced conservative beliefs, either.

In any case, they've passed the point of schism. It's already happened, back in the 1980s and 90s.

As I'm writing this, and reflecting on some of the ugly, messy church history of the last 50 years, I think you and I both are carrying some bitterness regarding churches we cared about. You've mentioned many times the lawsuits surrounding the schism in the Episcopal Church; I assume the schism had a personal impact on some people and congregations that are close to you. For myself, I get a particular feeling in the pit of my stomach when I hear the name Paige Patterson and think about what he and his friends did to the SBC. I'm not arguing for or against anything in this last paragraph, just - acknowledging some shadows that seem to be swirling around us both as we talk. In both schisms, harm was done, by multiple people, and that's not easily healed.
 
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The Liturgist

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I think what you're chiefly arguing for is church policies that provide a procedure by which a congregation can easily secede from its denomination, when the national denomination moves in a direction that the congregation disagrees with.

Where the congregation owns its own building, and the governing entity (which could be a presbytery, classis, regional synod, conference or annual convention) and the governing entity makes a material change to doctrine or liturgy without consent of the congregation, I regard this as a breach of trust between the congregation and governing unit on the part of the latter. Conversely, if the congregation makes a material change to doctrine or liturgy, and violates the statement of faith under which it joined or was created as part of the governing unit, or that it had assented to, this is contumacy on the part of the congregation.

Possibly, you're arguing for congregational polity.

Not at all. Although, that being said, I do believe that congregational and episcopal polity are the two approaches with the most scriptural support, insofar that a mission diocese with just one church is effectively congregationalist, whereas megachurches with multiple campuses really should be reorganized as dioceses with parishes or broken up into separate local churches (I believe some of these are members of the SBC and I would argue that this is a problem for the SBC insofar as these entities contradict the local church ecclesiology that is a traditional Baptist value).

Rather, my view is that in the context of the SBC, the congregational governance and the ability of churches to freely join and leave the conservative SBC, the moderate CBF or the mainline left-wing ABC, means that without criticism, local churches should be free to associate with whichever of these conferences, or indeed other Baptist conferences with more specific doctrines, of which there exists a great variety, particularly in the Southeast, on the basis of whichever Baptist denomination agrees with their worldview. Likewise, the Baptist conferences have recourse to remove congregations which are drifting away.

In the case of an episcopal polity, my view, which was upheld by the Supreme Court in the case of the Diocese of Fort Worth, in which it emerged that the ECUSA’s attempt to retain the real estate was unlawful (in retrospect, its a pity the Diocese of San Joaquin just capitulated on this point rather than litigating), is that each diocesan bishop should have the same authority that he would be granted by the early Church, or most Orthodox Churches, which is to say, very strong authority in his own diocese, no authority outside of it, but accountable to his brother bishops in the Holy Synod or an autonomous regional Synod presided over in either case by an Archbishop, Metropolitan, Catholicos, Pope or Patriarch, but these Archepiscopal presiding bishops should be just that: the ceremonial primus inter pares and president of the Holy Synod, without the authority to celebrate the liturgy or do anything in the diocese of another bishop without their consent.

I particularly like the story of the Coptic Pope who dared to begin celebrating the liturgy in the absence of the local bishop when the latter was unavoidably detained: when the bishop arrived, he smashed by stomping upon it the Pope’s mitre, and the Pope accepted this rebuke as he realized he had grievously transgressed upon the local bishop.

So, from this, we can say that the local parish or diocese has a relationship to the parent denomination that can be violated by either party if one or the other changes doctrine or otherwise engages in heresy, or changes the liturgy without consent in a manner exceeding the prerogatives the parent denomination or diocese allows. In the case of a Congregational polity, the simple solution is for the relationship between local church and denomination to be terminated. In the case of an Episcopal polity, the relationship between the diocese and the Holy Synod is much the same, except that if the bishop is the one who is changing the doctrine, if the bishop is preaching heresy by contradicting Scripture or the faith as set forth in the Ecumenical Councils, he should be deposed, but if the denomination decides to change its doctrine, which the Episcopal Church did, then the bishops who dissent should be free to leave with their dioceses.

When it comes to parishes, my view is basically the same: an heretical priest can be deposed, removed and replaced, but if the congregation is objecting to new or changed doctrine or the imposition of liturgical changes, the experiences we have seen with many avoidable schisms due to imposed liturgical changes* makes me believe that in tnose circumstances, parishes should be allowed to leave the diocese and affiliate with a different jurisdiction, provided the parish owns their own real estate, as opposed to it being a mission church, cathedral church or some other church actually owned by the diocese.**

As far as what is meet and right in the case of presbyterian polity, I am not sure, as I find that polity complex, but I appreciate the Gracious Dismissal approach taken by the PCUSA in allowing parish kirks to leave and join Eco or other denominations (hopefully some joined the PCA), and this seems appropriate given that the PCUSA acknowledged it had made doctrinal changes. On the other hand, the PCA’s intervention in Coral Ridge on behalf of the daughter of Dr. James Kennedy, may his memory be eternal, who, along with supporters of the wonderful classical music program established by Dr. Kennedy were cruelly forced out of the church by Tullian Tchiavidian (if I recall, the local Presbytery reversed his banning them from the property, and Tchiavidian was later forced to resign in disgrace due to adultery - perhaps the moral of this story is to not hire a pastor whose first name is that of a notorious heretic, Tertullian, whose fall from orthodox grace into rigorism and then the Montanist heresy was one of the great personal tragedies in the Ante Nicene Church).


*Prime examples of disastrous schisms deriv with the Episcopal Church in 1979, the Roman Catholic Church in 1969, the Greek Orthodox change to the liturgical calendar in 1919-1921 (which led to the Old Calendarist schism), the Russian Orthodox in the 1660s with the Nikonian reform to the liturgy, and if we go even further back, the schism caused when Nestorius sought to suppress the veneration of Our Glorious Lady Theotokos.

**In these situations, I believe it is ideal that the Bishop be Rector, and the priest be Vicar, whereas otherwise, if the Parish is self-sustaining and owns its own real estate, the principle priest ought to be vicar.
 
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The Liturgist

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Well, but there were also Baptist groups like the Conservative Baptists and the General Association of Regular Baptists that the Pressler/Patterson faction could have joined. So maybe we didn't really need another Baptist convention that enforced conservative beliefs, either.

The conversion of a larger denomination to a strongly traditionalist position in the case of the SBC, following in the footsteps of the LCMS, both of which would either be dying mainline churches, or would have merged with the ABC and ELCA respectively, is what was needed in the 1990s. No one was forced out of their church - where the congregations disliked the SBC, they were free to affiliate with another entity.

In any case, they've passed the point of schism. It's already happened, back in the 1980s and 90s.

Firstly, I have no idea what you mean by a schism in the 1980s and 90s. Presumably you refer to the small number of local churches which changed denominational affiliation as the SBC embraced more Scriptural doctrine.

However, in this case, had the SBC reversed its correct decision after twenty three years, the result would surely have been a large and disastrous schism, which could have split the denomination into three or more parts (a center-left group similar to the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, an evangelical conservative group, and a Calvinist fundamentalist group, the latter following the lead of Dr. Albert Mohler, who I regard as the successor of Dr. James Kennedy and Pope St. John Paul II as more likely than not the foremost moral theologian in the Western churches, although I disagree with his theology in other areas.

This is of course not unique, I would cite the example of St. Alphonsus Ligouri as an example of a great moral theologian who on matters of dogmatic theology I am not in complete agreement with.
 
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The Liturgist

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As I'm writing this, and reflecting on some of the ugly, messy church history of the last 50 years, I think you and I both are carrying some bitterness regarding churches we cared about. You've mentioned many times the lawsuits surrounding the schism in the Episcopal Church; I assume the schism had a personal impact on some people and congregations that are close to you.

Well my unpleasant experience involved the left wing takeover of other denominations, because prior to the early 2010s, I had very little contact with the Episcopal Church and did not know that much about them. Which is in retrospect a blessing, as it would have been torture to see what all happened in that church in the 1990s and 2000s with shrinking congregations and the mass exodus following the disastrous consecration of Gene Robinson as a bishop (or indeed, the former Bishop Bruno of Los Angeles).

These consecrations as well as the consecration of female bishops were and are deeply problematic in terms of qualifications from a scriptural perspective and in terms of the canon law of the Early Church. In the former case, it is difficult to reconcile the episcopal consecration of Robinson, or the former presiding bishop, or any of the female bishops, with the qualifications for the Episcopate set forth by the Holy Apostle St. Paul in his epistles to Timothy, the Romans, the Corinthians and the Galatians, among others, not to mention the violation of tradition the importance of which is stressed in 2 Thessalonians 2:15. In the latter case, while serving as a police officer, Bishop Bruno did shoot someone, which apparently caused a spiritual crisis leading to him becoming active in the church, which is good, but according to the ancient canons of the early church, anyone who has ever killed anyone else even accidentally is disqualified from Holy Orders. Now this canon can be waved through oikonomia, but great discretion is required.

Had I lived through what happened in the Episcopal Church in the 1960s, I probably would have been even more distressed, because looking at specific statements he made concerning doctrines such as the Trinity, I can’t think of any justification for the heresy trial convened against him to have acquitted him. That was, I fear, the moment at which the Episcopal Church began its decline (contemporaneous with increased left wing theology taking over the seminaries of several other denominations including the ALC/LCA, the then-newly formed UMC and UCC, the Northern Baptist Convention, which is now the American Baptist Convention, and the PCUSA.

The LCMS and SBC would almost certainly have merged into the ELCA and ABC respectively; indeed, the 1978 Lutheran Book of Worship, which the LCMS rejected for theological reasons, was actually a project they had started, which the ALC and LCA then jumped aboard.

In the case of the SBC, I don’t want to sound unsympathetic, as it does sound like something very distressing happened to you and your relationship with that denomination, so bearing that in mind, forgive me, for I am unable to identify any substantial schism, and I also don’t see how the SBC could have survived while retaining its massive membership had it taken the path you would have preferred. Given the nature of how Baptist churches work and their ability to freely associate and disassociate with conventions based on their theology, It seems like this ought to be something of a non-issue.
 
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PloverWing

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@The Liturgist :

I suppose if you agree with the leaders of the conservative takeover of the SBC, and if you agree with the schismatic bishops in TEC -- if you think that, in both cases, they were working to reform the two denominations in positive ways -- then that would give you a different perspective.

I didn't realize you opposed the consecration of female bishops. That would also give you a different perspective on the episcopacy of Presiding Bishop Jefferts Schori.

I see both situations as conservatives doing significant damage to their churches (though they probably intended to be doing good). I recognize that that is not your view of the situations.

Regarding property, the ownership of property needs to be clearly spelled out for both the church and civil lawyers, so that everyone knows who will get custody of the candlesticks when the divorce happens.

The story of the SBC in the late 20th century is told here: Southern Baptist Convention conservative resurgence - Wikipedia

In browsing the Internet for linkable sources, I was reminded that Baptist have been splitting from one another since Baptists first existed -- a consequence, perhaps, of the belief in congregational and individual autonomy -- so that the SBC disaster was neither the first nor the last schism among Baptists. It's just the one I happened to live through. My female friends who were SBC pastors have moved to different denominations (UCC, TEC) and continue to serve as pastors. I was already moving away from the SBC for other reasons. Life goes on.
 
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Dave G.

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There isn't much to discuss here from a scriptural standpoint. If to believe scripture as any believer should do so, there is 0 footing for female pastors. The Bible names in more than one place who the leaders are, men ( a man in each case) married to one woman. And that's it. The world thinks otherwise but the world was never for Gods Word to begin with. So this isn't just about SBC doctrine but scriptural doctrine. We can't help it if others wander from truth, truth being navigated by the bible not mankind's views. Many denominations have caved to societies wishes. But God says that everything will pass away but His word will remain ( will stand). And that goes into eternity.
 
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