What is born again. Do you know you are,

returntosender · Feb 12, 2023

Is born again the same as being saved. How do you become those two?

d taylor · Feb 12, 2023

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A person (unbeliever) when they trust in, believe in Jesus The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life salvation. They become a believer, born again and become a child of God. They cross over from death to life at the very moment of their belief, not 10, 20, 30 years later to see if they remain a believer.

A born again child of God can never become an unborn again person and cross back over from life to death.

JimR-OCDS · Feb 12, 2023

Born again to me means dying to self and being reborn into a new life from the
experience of Christ's revelation.

Faith is Christ revelation of Himself to the individual, however that may happen.
Once a person tastes Divine Love, they are transformed into the true person
God had in mind when he created you. The previous false image of self dies.

timothyu · Feb 12, 2023

There are those born of water and those born of spirit, Flesh originally born of water sees life as an opportunity for self. We have self interest, self determination, self justification, etc., forces of evil. Unlike our fellow creatures who are also self oriented for survival, we commonly take it a step further due to greed thanks to our knowledge of good and evil Now imagine this selfish mind suddenly realizes we have it all backwards as God tells us, that our ways are contrary to His Kingdom. We reverse this self thing to become awareness of the needs of others rather than getting gain from them at their personal expense. You have been born into a new way of thinking that is opposite to the traditional ways of mankind. You are now more fitting to the Kingdom than the world we have made in our own image. The spirit of the Kingdom is within you. You have been saved from living the backwards lifestyle of mankind.

In doing so you have put Gods will ahead of your own and in doing so you will love all as self and care for all as you would hope they would care for you if needed. Those are Jesus' two commandants. Jesus was a revolutionary simply because the kingdom He taught would run contrary to the ways and governments of man. He was not just another world ruler that the Jews were looking for.

Change yourself on a small scale like say Mother Teresa, or even the Red Cross, and no one will complain, but make it a movement and it becomes a threat to leaders and governments of man and they will shut you down like they did Jesus. From this you can see that in order for Christianity to have survived, it must have had to fit into the system of man, rejoined the world in order to have survived this long. It rejected the Kingdom and as we see in the parable of the sower, it fell among thorns and grew a hybrid grain. However God knows how to use for His own purpose the selfishness of man who seek power. Thankfully scripture came with the hybrid grain so the truth is still available, and if a person can't figure out for themselves that this world does it all wrong, then it is still in scripture to be gleaned along with examples from beginning to end of why we should follow the will of God rather than our own self serving will.

Soyeong · Feb 12, 2023

returntosender said:
Is born again the same as being saved. How do you become those two?

The fruits of the Spirit are aspects of God's nature and the Bible often uses the same terms to describe aspects of God's nature as it does to describe aspects of the nature of God's law, such as with it being holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12), which is because it is God's instructs for how to express those aspects of His nature. This is why the Spirit has the role of leading us in truth (John 16:13), the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law (Ezekiel 36:26-27), and God's law is truth (Psalms 119:142). A chip off the old block is someone who has the same character or nature as their father, so this is the sense that Jesus is the Son of God insofar as he is the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through setting a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and the sense that we are born again as children of God when we are partaking in the divine nature through following his example.

This is also why Jesus said that if they were children of Abraham, then they would be doing the same works as him (John 8:39), why those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not born again as children of God (1 John 3:4-10), and why those who are born again of the Spirit are contrasted with those who have minds set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's law (Romans 8:4-7). Obediently expressing aspects of God's nature is also the way to believe that God is holy, righteous, and good, and so forth, or in other words, it is the way to believe in Him, which is why those who believe in his name have been given the right to become children of God (John 1:12).

Being born again is synonymous with being saved. Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and God's law is how we know what sin is (Romans 3:20), so expressing God's nature by living in obedience to it is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not doing that.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Feb 12, 2023

returntosender said:
Is born again the same as being saved. How do you become those two?

Ask Nakdimon...

fhansen · Feb 12, 2023

returntosender said:
Is born again the same as being saved. How do you become those two?

Don't let anyone tell you that it means that you can know with absolute, perfect certainy that you're numbered among the elect-and can never lose that position. Being born again means that you've turned from sin and towards God, accepting His gift of faith, perhaps weakly at first, and then began to follow Him as an adopted child of His will. It means that you've come to believe in God as revealed by His Son, that you've made God your God, as opposed to the various offerings of this world. Now, you take one step at a time, one foot in front of the other every day, and as you continue to walk with Him, He'll give you the power to walk with Him even more strongl;y, more convicted in your faith, hope, and love. He''ll give you the power to do, with Him, what you cannot do on your own:

“If you choose you can keep the commandments, they will save you;
if you trust in God, you too shall live;
he has set before you fire and water
to whichever you choose, stretch forth your hand. Before man are life and death, good and evil, whichever he chooses shall be given him. Immense is the wisdom of the Lord; he is mighty in power, and all-seeing. The eyes of God are on those who fear him; he understands man's every deed. No one does he command to act unjustly, to none does he give license to sin.” Sir 15:15-20

"Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

SavedByGrace3 · Feb 12, 2023

John does a great job giving the proofs that we are born of God. It is a recurring theme in the epistle.
Read these and do war with them. "It is written, I believe Jesus is the Christ, I am born of God."

1 John 5:1 KJV
1. Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
"It is written, I believe Jesus is the Christ, I am born of God."

1 John 4:2 KJV
2. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
"It is written, I confess Jesus is come in the flesh and therefore I am of God."

1 John 2:29 KJV
29. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
"It is written, I am born of Him because I doeth righteousness."

1 John 4:7 KJV
7. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
"It is written, I love the breathern, therefore I am born of God."

1 John 4:14-15 KJV
15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
"It is written, I confess Jesus is the Son of God, therefore God dwelleth in me, and I in God."

1 John 5:4-5 KJV
4. For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
"It is written I believe that Jesus is the Son of God and overcome the world, therefore I am born of God."

These are all rooted in the reality that human beings cannot confess that Jesus is Lord unless this fact has been revealed to them. If you know, confess, and act in accordance with His Lordship, then you are born again. Unregenerate people CANNOT do this.
The fact that you are asking these questions proves in itself that you are born of God. People who do not care are not there.

d taylor · Feb 12, 2023

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How does a person know they are born again. Well they may not if they look to themselves and how they are living life. But if they take their eyes of of themselves and look to and believe in God's promise.

That all who trust in The Messiah has received Eternal Life salvation and is born again, then they will know they are born again.

Blade · Feb 12, 2023

returntosender said:
Is born again the same as being saved. How do you become those two?

Born again, born form above, regenerated yes all the same. How do you know? By faith trusting that what He said He will do. Blessed are those that believe yet never seen.

So depends on who you want to listen to. Well believers will tell you, once saved always saved. Others will tell you you can lose your salvation. Those are thoughts questions I never have. Why would I trust in what some man says about what he/she personally believes about salvation when they have no other information then I have. Some don't know they are not secure from what it sounds like. Me? I trust in what Christ, God, the sweet sweet holy Spirit said. As Christ told the 12 don't rejoice that the demons are subject unto you but that your names "are" written in heaven. Not going to be not maybe but are. There is a book of life and the lambs book of life. NO one has ever been blotted out of the lambs book...no one its not written. The great tribulation we read before the beast makes all worship it...says All the inhabitants of the earth will fall down and worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain [as a willing sacrifice].

See I won't allow anyone to steal my crown nor my joy or hope. In Christ the sold rock I stand. So you pray you ask Him He will show you in His word what He said. He will always back up what He says by His word. Yes they are the same

returntosender · Feb 12, 2023

Blade said:
Born again, born form above, regenerated yes all the same. How do you know? By faith trusting that what He said He will do. Blessed are those that believe yet never seen.

So depends on who you want to listen to. Well believers will tell you, once saved always saved. Others will tell you you can lose your salvation. Those are thoughts questions I never have. Why would I trust in what some man says about what he/she personally believes about salvation when they have no other information then I have. Some don't know they are not secure from what it sounds like. Me? I trust in what Christ, God, the sweet sweet holy Spirit said. As Christ told the 12 don't rejoice that the demons are subject unto you but that your names "are" written in heaven. Not going to be not maybe but are. There is a book of life and the lambs book of life. NO one has ever been blotted out of the lambs book...no one its not written. The great tribulation we read before the beast makes all worship it...says All the inhabitants of the earth will fall down and worship him, everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the Book of Life of the Lamb who has been slain [as a willing sacrifice].

See I won't allow anyone to steal my crown nor my joy or hope. In Christ the sold rock I stand. So you pray you ask Him He will show you in His word what He said. He will always back up what He says by His word. Yes they are the same

So, there's no particular feeling you get that makes you feel born again?

fhansen · Feb 13, 2023

returntosender said:
So, there's no particular feeling you get that makes you feel born again?

The more you find yourself believing in, hoping in, and loving God…and the more you find yourself doing His will, producing fruit, the more assurance you have that you’re one of His. But no one can know with 100% certainty until the end, when He gives His judgement.

d taylor · Feb 14, 2023

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Figuring Out When You Were Born Again

Why Isn’t Everyone in Christianity Born Again? – Grace Evangelical Society

ViaCrucis · Feb 18, 2023

returntosender said:
Is born again the same as being saved. How do you become those two?

Salvation is a fairly robust concept that includes new birth/regeneration, but saying they are exactly the same thing would be leaving far too much out.

As for what is the new birth? As far as I can tell there are essentially two broad camps: The Sacramental view and the Non-Sacramental view.

The Sacramental view is the view which is held to by Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, and other more theologically traditional churches. The short version of it is that the new birth refers to the Sacrament of Holy Baptism. This view understands that when Jesus, in His discussion with Nicodemus in the 3rd chapter of John, when speaking of being born again (or born from above), He says one must be "born of water and the Spirit". The traditional Christian interpretation, one that goes all the way back to the earliest years of Christianity, is that "born of water and the Spirit" refers to baptism. Those who share this view look to other places in Scripture as well, for example Titus 3:5 which speaks of the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Before continuing, one could possibly speak of a third perspective, perhaps as a kind of "middle" view; which was formulated by Reformed theologians in the 16th century. Where regeneration is technically made distinct from baptism, but baptism remained an essential thing as the essential sign and seal of covenant. In Reformed theology, there is what is called the Ordo Salutis or "Order of Salvation", based on a Calvinist view of predestination and election, the irresistible call of God through the Gospel regenerates a person, which leads to faith; and baptism is the covenant sign and seal of that faith. Those who subscribe to the Reformed tradition can correct me if I'm mistaken on anything here.

From that, it perhaps makes sense how post-Reformation, primarily Revivalist Protestant traditions have formulated a doctrine of regeneration that has nothing to do with baptism whatsoever. Instead, in the Revivalist tradition which emerged in the 18th and 19th centuries, regeneration came to be understood as profound conversion experience, which involved the act of making a personal, committed decision to become a Christian. That by coming to God out of obedience and repentance, and making a personal decision to believe and follow Jesus and accept Him as one's personal Lord, God in essence responds to that faith by making that person born again, by giving the Holy Spirit. Very often, in this system of thought "born of water and the Spirit" refer to two distinct things. Understanding that regeneration is to be born of the Spirit; and the water here referring to something else. What that water refers can vary. A common perspective among modern Evangelical Protestants is that the "water" of John 3:5 refers to amniotic fluid, and thus it refers to natural birth; thus John 3:5 does not contain a singular birth but a double-birth: a natural birth from the womb, and a secondary birth of the Spirit. I have, however, also seen some argue that "water" in John 3:5 is figurative or symbolic language in reference to repentance.

There are, I'm sure, lots of other views; and the Sacramental and Non-Sacramental views can be further elaborated upon and subdivided into more nuanced views. But these are, I'd argue, essentially the two broad camps.

As a Lutheran I believe that the new birth, ordinarily, refers to baptism. Though it is important to provide a bit of nuance to that. For example, just because a person hasn't (yet) received baptism doesn't mean they are not regenerated; and further, just because a person may--for whatever reason--not receive baptism doesn't itself mean they aren't born again. Hence the use of "ordinarily" when I began this paragraph. Because in Lutheranism we understand that regeneration is faith. Since faith is something that comes from outside of ourselves as the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), which God works, creates, and strengthens through His word (Romans 10:17), then faith is regeneration. Anyone who trusts and believes in Christ is born again. Whether they were baptized as an infant or converted as an adult. As we understand that God's uses Means of Grace to work faith and strengthen faith, the expression we use for those Means is "Word and Sacrament". We are very careful to say that it is Word and Sacrament, not Word or Sacrament; because "Word and Sacrament" is a single thing, not two things. As we understand "Sacrament" to be those external, visible, and tangible works of God in which God's word is found, such as Baptism. We believe that baptism is not mere water, but water "comprehended and connected to God's word", so when we read in Ephesians 5:26 that Christ has cleansed His Church by "the washing of water with the word" we understand "water with the word" to mean baptism, for what makes baptism baptism, rather than just getting wet, is God's word: The very Gospel itself.

So when is a person born again? When they receive faith? How does a person receive faith? By the grace of God acting through Word and Sacrament. Which is why we believe that baptized infants are born again believers in Jesus Christ--they have faith, even though they cannot yet articulate it. And a person who, as an adult, comes to faith when they heard the Gospel for the first time (or the thousandth time), they too are born again. And so we never separate faith from baptism: It is faith which makes us born again, which happens in baptism, which happens in the hearing of the Gospel, etc. It is always the power and work of God, working, creating, giving us faith, strengthening that faith, freely justifying us by declaring us forgiven on Christ's account, imputing to us the righteousness of Christ as a free gift apart from all our works.

-CryptoLutheran

fhansen · Feb 18, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
Salvation is a fairly robust concept that includes new birth/regeneration, but saying they are exactly the same thing would be leaving far too much out.

As for what is the new birth? As far as I can tell there are essentially two broad camps: The Sacramental view and the Non-Sacramental view.

The Sacramental view is the view which is held to by Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, and other more theologically traditional churches. The short version of it is that the new birth refers to the Sacrament of Holy Baptism. This view understands that when Jesus, in His discussion with Nicodemus in the 3rd chapter of John, when speaking of being born again (or born from above), He says one must be "born of water and the Spirit". The traditional Christian interpretation, one that goes all the way back to the earliest years of Christianity, is that "born of water and the Spirit" refers to baptism. Those who share this view look to other places in Scripture as well, for example Titus 3:5 which speaks of the washing of regeneration and the renewal of the Holy Spirit.

Before continuing, one could possibly speak of a third perspective, perhaps as a kind of "middle" view; which was formulated by Reformed theologians in the 16th century. Where regeneration is technically made distinct from baptism, but baptism remained an essential thing as the essential sign and seal of covenant. In Reformed theology, there is what is called the Ordo Salutis or "Order of Salvation", based on a Calvinist view of predestination and election, the irresistible call of God through the Gospel regenerates a person, which leads to faith; and baptism is the covenant sign and seal of that faith. Those who subscribe to the Reformed tradition can correct me if I'm mistaken on anything here.

From that, it perhaps makes sense how post-Reformation, primarily Revivalist Protestant traditions have formulated a doctrine of regeneration that has nothing to do with baptism whatsoever. Instead, in the Revivalist tradition which emerged in the 18th and 19th centuries, regeneration came to be understood as profound conversion experience, which involved the act of making a personal, committed decision to become a Christian. That by coming to God out of obedience and repentance, and making a personal decision to believe and follow Jesus and accept Him as one's personal Lord, God in essence responds to that faith by making that person born again, by giving the Holy Spirit. Very often, in this system of thought "born of water and the Spirit" refer to two distinct things. Understanding that regeneration is to be born of the Spirit; and the water here referring to something else. What that water refers can vary. A common perspective among modern Evangelical Protestants is that the "water" of John 3:5 refers to amniotic fluid, and thus it refers to natural birth; thus John 3:5 does not contain a singular birth but a double-birth: a natural birth from the womb, and a secondary birth of the Spirit. I have, however, also seen some argue that "water" in John 3:5 is figurative or symbolic language in reference to repentance.

There are, I'm sure, lots of other views; and the Sacramental and Non-Sacramental views can be further elaborated upon and subdivided into more nuanced views. But these are, I'd argue, essentially the two broad camps.

As a Lutheran I believe that the new birth, ordinarily, refers to baptism. Though it is important to provide a bit of nuance to that. For example, just because a person hasn't (yet) received baptism doesn't mean they are not regenerated; and further, just because a person may--for whatever reason--not receive baptism doesn't itself mean they aren't born again. Hence the use of "ordinarily" when I began this paragraph. Because in Lutheranism we understand that regeneration is faith. Since faith is something that comes from outside of ourselves as the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8), which God works, creates, and strengthens through His word (Romans 10:17), then faith is regeneration. Anyone who trusts and believes in Christ is born again. Whether they were baptized as an infant or converted as an adult. As we understand that God's uses Means of Grace to work faith and strengthen faith, the expression we use for those Means is "Word and Sacrament". We are very careful to say that it is Word and Sacrament, not Word or Sacrament; because "Word and Sacrament" is a single thing, not two things. As we understand "Sacrament" to be those external, visible, and tangible works of God in which God's word is found, such as Baptism. We believe that baptism is not mere water, but water "comprehended and connected to God's word", so when we read in Ephesians 5:26 that Christ has cleansed His Church by "the washing of water with the word" we understand "water with the word" to mean baptism, for what makes baptism baptism, rather than just getting wet, is God's word: The very Gospel itself.

So when is a person born again? When they receive faith? How does a person receive faith? By the grace of God acting through Word and Sacrament. Which is why we believe that baptized infants are born again believers in Jesus Christ--they have faith, even though they cannot yet articulate it. And a person who, as an adult, comes to faith when they heard the Gospel for the first time (or the thousandth time), they too are born again. And so we never separate faith from baptism: It is faith which makes us born again, which happens in baptism, which happens in the hearing of the Gospel, etc. It is always the power and work of God, working, creating, giving us faith, strengthening that faith, freely justifying us by declaring us forgiven on Christ's account, imputing to us the righteousness of Christ as a free gift apart from all our works.

-CryptoLutheran

Thank you for a very informative post. I'd also add that in Catholicism Baptsim is called the "sacrament of faith", so that the two, faith and the corresponding, resulting action of Baptism are not meant to be separated unless Baptism is simply impossible to accomplish. But, in obedience to the Lord's command it's meant to be the first, formal, public expression and profession of that faith, and of the new birth that it results in.

ViaCrucis · Feb 20, 2023

fhansen said:
Thank you for a very informative post. I'd also add that in Catholicism Baptsim is called the "sacrament of faith", so that the two, faith and the corresponding, resulting action of Baptism are not meant to be separated unless Baptism is simply impossible to accomplish. But, in obedience to the Lord's command it's meant to be the first, formal, public expression and profession of that faith, and of the new birth that it results in.

Lutherans are of the same mind on this. It simply doesn't make any sense to us to separate faith and baptism. We often point to the passage in Mark 16 where the Lord says, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16). That baptism carries the promise of salvation, but not being baptized is not itself grounds for condemnation; but apart from faith there can be no salvation. As you mention "unless Baptism is simply impossible to accomplish", for there can certainly be extenuating circumstances; in which the ancient ideas of "baptism of desire" or "baptism of blood" have haven been used. There have been times where Christians have been unable to receive baptism, for example when catechumens were martyred in antiquity; nobody would say that they are not saved on this basis.

In modern times we have a rather unique situation in which many Christians are, at least from your and my perspective, simply ignorant about baptism, about what baptism is and what it means. Thus they simply don't know any better, and perhaps therefore have not yet received baptism in spite of having been Christians for a very long time. They have faith, and so from a Lutheran perspective that truly is what matters; but we have a hard time comprehending--knowing and believing as we do about baptism--why a Christian would deprive themselves of this most precious gift from God, especially since baptism was given by Christ's explicit command and institution in His Great Commission, "Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit,". Nevertheless, we live in a time of severe theological illiteracy and theological confusion, and so many--by no fault of their own--have simply been incorrectly taught (at least from our POV, though not from their POV).

In all of this I think I can talk about my own journey and experiences of faith. I grew up in a non-Sacramental church background. I have no memory of a time before I believed, because I've believed for as long as I've been able to walk and talk. But the churches my family was part of did not baptize infants or young children. My first church was a non-denominational church, and the second church we were part of was a Foursquare church. I didn't receive baptism until I was 17 years old in my Foursquare church. Which means that while I've believed since before I can remember, I didn't get baptized until much later in life. Does that mean I didn't receive new birth until I was baptized? Well at least from the Lutheran perspective (I'm curious about the Catholic POV in such a scenario), no--I really was born again because I had faith, because God works through Word and Sacrament; and the Gospel is powerful and effectual, creating and giving faith. And yet, my baptism was still Baptism, Holy Baptism, and God's word connected to and with the water of the Sacrament was still God saving me, giving me faith, working faith in me, forgiving my sins. So it's never either/or, it's always both/and. It is the entire work of God's grace, always active, always working, always doing what God says He will do.

But, of course, this is also an example of how the Lutheran understanding of justification differs from other Protestant traditions. Where in many Protestant traditions justification is viewed as a "one time event", Lutherans understand justification to be an ever-present reality. Justification is God's declaring us righteous, it doesn't just happen once and then we go on with our lives; rather God is always declaring us righteous on Christ's account, God is always and continually declaring our sins forgiven because of what Christ has done. So as we are abiding in Christ, abiding in His word, at the receiving end of grace through faith, God is always, continually, unceasingly loving us, forgiving us, declaring the truth of what Christ has done for us--and it is always, continually, saving us, justifying us, making us new people in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Which is why we are always to be hearing the word of the Gospel preached, always having God's commandments call us to repentance, abiding in and remembering our baptism, receiving the Lord's Supper, receiving forgiveness through Confession and Absolution. Word and Sacrament, consuming the totality of our lives, grounding us in Christ, feeding us, sustaining us, holding us, keeping us, so that we are abiding in Christ who alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.

-CryptoLutheran

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