Jesus Commanded Repentance First. Why?

All Becomes New · Jan 7, 2023

Matthew 4:17 ESV
“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.””

Why is it that Christ did not start his ministry saying, "You all need to be baptized," and instead said the above?

Acts 16:30–31 ESV
“Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.””

Why was the condition for salvation belief in the Lord Jesus and not baptism?

Mark 16:16 ESV
““Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.””

Why didn't Jesus say, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned?"

I can only assume that someone can be saved without being baptized. Of course, this does not mean that baptism is "bad" or that we should not be baptized. All it means is that baptism is not as fundamental to being a Christian as faith is.

Now, I know people are going to appeal to church history here. But consider...

1 Corinthians 1:14 ESV
“I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,”

So the question becomes, "Who baptized these people?"

And if Christ Himself never baptized anyone but calls everyone to repent, what does that say?

BobRyan · Jan 7, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
I can only assume that someone can be saved without being baptized. Of course, this does not mean that baptism is "bad" or that we should not be baptized. All it means is that baptism is not as fundamental to being a Christian as faith is.

Agreed - but living faith is always active in obedience and after confession and repentance comes the active of obedience in being baptized and the choice to identify with Christ and the family of God.

Moses and Elijah stand with Christ in glory in Matt 17 - neither of them were formally "baptized" - but were saved all the same because in their day God did not call them to be baptized as an act of obedience -- yet they still had to choose to "identify" with Christ and the family of God in their outward actions.

Clare73 · Jan 8, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Matthew 4:17 ESV
“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.””
Why is it that Christ did not start his ministry saying, "You all need to be baptized," and instead said the above?
Acts 16:30–31 ESV
“Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.””
Why was the condition for salvation belief in the Lord Jesus and not baptism?

Baptism is a work (performing). Salvation is by faith alone (Eph 2:8-9).

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Mark 16:16 ESV
““Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.” ”Why didn't Jesus say, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned?"

Because salvation does not depend on baptism, it depends on faith.

Jesse Dornfeld said:
I can only assume that someone can be saved without being baptized. Of course, this does not mean that baptism is "bad" or that we should not be baptized. All it means is that baptism is not as fundamental to being a Christian as faith is.

It means that salvation does not depend on baptism.

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Now, I know people are going to appeal to church history here. But consider...
1 Corinthians 1:14 ESV
“I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,”
So the question becomes, "Who baptized these people?"

The apostles and disciples after Jesus died and Pentecost.

Jesse Dornfeld said:
And if Christ Himself never baptized anyone but calls everyone to repent, what does that say?

Baptism is into the death of Christ (Ro 6:3) which remits sin by faith, and Christ had not yet died.

eleos1954 · Jan 8, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Matthew 4:17 ESV
“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.””

Why is it that Christ did not start his ministry saying, "You all need to be baptized," and instead said the above?

Acts 16:30–31 ESV
“Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.””

Why was the condition for salvation belief in the Lord Jesus and not baptism?

Mark 16:16 ESV
““Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.””

Why didn't Jesus say, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned?"

I can only assume that someone can be saved without being baptized. Of course, this does not mean that baptism is "bad" or that we should not be baptized. All it means is that baptism is not as fundamental to being a Christian as faith is.

Now, I know people are going to appeal to church history here. But consider...

1 Corinthians 1:14 ESV
“I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,”

So the question becomes, "Who baptized these people?"

And if Christ Himself never baptized anyone but calls everyone to repent, what does that say?

Paul didn't see his calling to baptize people ... early on people were wrongly thinking ... had misunderstandings about baptism .... that being rather that baptism, as being baptized unto Christ. Some were associating water baptism with the person doing it rather than with it being a public testament that they had received Jesus as their Lord and Savior ... through faith which includes repentance.

we see this same issue here:

Acts 19:3
3“Into what, then, were you baptized?” Paul asked. “ The baptism of John,”they replied. 4Paul explained: “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance.

and that (the latter) is what it is .... water baptism is not a requirement for salvation ... faith is (always has been, always will be) .... and baptism is symbolic of the faith one has received (a public display of faith in Christ) ... that faith includes repentance else its not faith.

ViaCrucis · Jan 9, 2023

The Gospel calls and brings sinners to faith, and the call goes forth to repent and be baptized. Baptism is a one time thing, but repentance is a life-long call. So whether one is baptized when young or baptized when old, it produces the same working of faith (for God's word creates and works faith, Romans 10:17, as faith is God's gift and work not our own work and power, Ephesians 2:8-9, and baptism is a washing of water with the word, Ephesians 5:26). So through baptism God works and creates faith, creating faith where there was none prior and strengthening and working faith in those who have received it already through the preaching of the word.

So when the infant is baptized we can trust that, by God's word, faith is created; for God creates and calls "those things which are not as though they were" (Romans 4:17). And as the child is reared up in the Church, hearing God's word, that child will learn repentance. It's no different for adult converts, who likewise are called to baptism and repentance. And through the preaching of the word, through baptism, God creates and strengthens faith. For it is God who gives faith apart from our works, as a pure gift, as St. Paul has said in Ephesians 2:8-9.

So therefore, "whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved, but whoever does not believe is condemned." (Mark 16:16). It is not baptism which saves merely ex opere operato (Latin for "by the working of the work"); but baptism saves because God's word is found therein, connected to the water ("washing of water with the word" Ephesians 5:26), which means "this baptism now saves you, not of the washing of dirt from the flesh but of the pledge of a new conscience to God by the power of Christ's resurrection" (1 Peter 3:21). It is the word that does this, the word which creates and sustains faith. But that word, connected to the water in baptism, means that baptism is not merely getting wet ("washing of dirt from the flesh") but is the power and work of God by His grace to work faith--and that means all who are baptized have been buried with Christ, and have been raised up together with Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-14), and clothed with Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:27), and has been born again (John 3:3-5, Titus 3:5).

Can a person be saved even if they aren't baptized? Of course.
Is baptism just some cute little religious ritual we do that doesn't actually do anything? Absolutely not, God has staked His own Holy Name upon this Sacrament. For Christ says to baptize "in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit", here God stakes His very own Name, and is itself foreshadowed in Christ's baptism where we read that Christ in the river along with the voice of the Father from heaven and the appearance of the Holy Spirit like a dove. And therefore baptism is God's work and gift to accomplish that for which He instituted it, namely, for the forgiveness of our sins (Acts 2:38), union with Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13, Galatians 3:27), that God's saving power be demonstrated through it for us (1 Peter 3:21).

To the one called to baptism they are called to repentance.
To the one who is baptized they are called to repentance.
Repentance is not why we are baptized, repentance is what we are called to by the command of Christ who tells us to take up our cross and follow Him. Therefore the disciple of Christ is to inhabit repentance even as they are to inhabit prayer and thanksgiving.

"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9

Therefore repent. Repentance is how we are to live--confessing our sins, finding our refuge in God alone whose grace shields and shelters us.

"In my distress I called out to the LORD, and to my God I cried out for help." - Psalms 18:16

-CryptoLutheran

All Becomes New · Jan 9, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
The Gospel calls and brings sinners to faith, and the call goes forth to repent and be baptized. Baptism is a one time thing, but repentance is a life-long call. So whether one is baptized when young or baptized when old, it produces the same working of faith (for God's word creates and works faith, Romans 10:17, as faith is God's gift and work not our own work and power, Ephesians 2:8-9, and baptism is a washing of water with the word, Ephesians 5:26). So through baptism God works and creates faith, creating faith where there was none prior and strengthening and working faith in those who have received it already through the preaching of the word.

So when the infant is baptized we can trust that, by God's word, faith is created; for God creates and calls "those things which are not as though they were" (Romans 4:17). And as the child is reared up in the Church, hearing God's word, that child will learn repentance. It's no different for adult converts, who likewise are called to baptism and repentance. And through the preaching of the word, through baptism, God creates and strengthens faith. For it is God who gives faith apart from our works, as a pure gift, as St. Paul has said in Ephesians 2:8-9.

So therefore, "whoever believes and is baptized shall be saved, but whoever does not believe is condemned." (Mark 16:16). It is not baptism which saves merely ex opere operato (Latin for "by the working of the work"); but baptism saves because God's word is found therein, connected to the water ("washing of water with the word" Ephesians 5:26), which means "this baptism now saves you, not of the washing of dirt from the flesh but of the pledge of a new conscience to God by the power of Christ's resurrection" (1 Peter 3:21). It is the word that does this, the word which creates and sustains faith. But that word, connected to the water in baptism, means that baptism is not merely getting wet ("washing of dirt from the flesh") but is the power and work of God by His grace to work faith--and that means all who are baptized have been buried with Christ, and have been raised up together with Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-14), and clothed with Jesus Christ (Galatians 3:27), and has been born again (John 3:3-5, Titus 3:5).

Can a person be saved even if they aren't baptized? Of course.
Is baptism just some cute little religious ritual we do that doesn't actually do anything? Absolutely not, God has staked His own Holy Name upon this Sacrament. For Christ says to baptize "in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit", here God stakes His very own Name, and is itself foreshadowed in Christ's baptism where we read that Christ in the river along with the voice of the Father from heaven and the appearance of the Holy Spirit like a dove. And therefore baptism is God's work and gift to accomplish that for which He instituted it, namely, for the forgiveness of our sins (Acts 2:38), union with Christ (Romans 6:3-4, Colossians 2:12-13, Galatians 3:27), that God's saving power be demonstrated through it for us (1 Peter 3:21).

To the one called to baptism they are called to repentance.
To the one who is baptized they are called to repentance.
Repentance is not why we are baptized, repentance is what we are called to by the command of Christ who tells us to take up our cross and follow Him. Therefore the disciple of Christ is to inhabit repentance even as they are to inhabit prayer and thanksgiving.

"If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9

Therefore repent. Repentance is how we are to live--confessing our sins, finding our refuge in God alone whose grace shields and shelters us.

"In my distress I called out to the LORD, and to my God I cried out for help." - Psalms 18:16

-CryptoLutheran

Hi, thanks for your post.

I think you are right that it is God who grants faith. But I think God grants faith in repentance. Further, the link between baptism and faith is not as clear as you are making it. For example, infant baptism was a later accretion by the church that was developed because people believed if the infant or child were not baptized, then they would go to hell. That is how it started, and it is documented how this change was made. Also, there is no evidence to suggest infants were baptized in the Bible. It is said the jailer had his whole house baptized but is this different than Abraham circumcising his adult servants and son at the time? Basically, my point is that we have no idea how old the jailer was, and it's entirely possible everyone in his household was consenting age. Else, you would have to say that in all miscarriages, the baby goes to hell.

Secondly, there is no indication in Ephesians 5:26 that this is the normal pattern since it is talking about Christ's second coming. The whole context is here:

Ephesians 5:25–27 ESV
“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”

Once again, there is no mention of infant baptism in this passage, and the closest you can get to Baptism saving someone here is that a husband has already been saved and then baptizes his wife, so she gets saved. There's no mention of getting baptized against a person's will or without their consent. It is analogous to Christ and the church and, as such, should not necessarily be taken as a normative practice. I think far too much emphasis is placed on the phrase "washing of water with the word." but there is no indication that this is to be thought of as normative. It is far too vague for that. And as far as I am aware, this is the only place in the Bible with this phrase. So you Lutherans are making an entire doctrine based on a vague verse. And baptism in this passage is talking about a "washing," not a saving endeavor. So whatever it is, it cannot be used to say baptism is the only way someone gets saved.

And finally, in regards to 1 Peter 3:21, this should not necessarily be taken that Baptism is the whole means of salvation or the exact point that someone gets saved, but rather, it largely depends on how literally you take the phrase, "baptism now saves you." But we know that St Clement of Rome said, "Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved." So once again, repentance takes priority in saving faith over baptism. And it's okay if you want to dismiss what Clement said, just know that this was written in the first century and so demonstrates what the early church believed at the time.

ViaCrucis · Jan 10, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Hi, thanks for your post.

I think you are right that it is God who grants faith. But I think God grants faith in repentance. Further, the link between baptism and faith is not as clear as you are making it. For example, infant baptism was a later accretion by the church that was developed because people believed if the infant or child were not baptized, then they would go to hell. That is how it started, and it is documented how this change was made. Also, there is no evidence to suggest infants were baptized in the Bible. It is said the jailer had his whole house baptized but is this different than Abraham circumcising his adult servants and son at the time? Basically, my point is that we have no idea how old the jailer was, and it's entirely possible everyone in his household was consenting age. Else, you would have to say that in all miscarriages, the baby goes to hell.

Where is this documented?

I'm unaware of any church which practices the baptism of infants that says that unbaptized infants go to hell. Neither is this found in any writings of the fathers. The earliest example I am aware of comes from St. Augustine who, rather than saying an infant goes to hell, says that there may be a theoretical "limbo".

However we have the implicit witness of St. Polycarp who says that he has served Christ for 86 years (and he was 86 when he was martyred), implying he has been a Christian since infancy. Our earliest opposition to the practice is Tertullian who opposes it not because he considers the baptism of infants lacking in validity, but rather he personally held to the view that a sin committed after baptism was a sure way to get a ticket straight to hell. It must be remembered, also, that Tertullian abandoned the orthodox Christian faith in favor of the Montanist heresy; and that renders much of what he wrote suspect; and so the proper way to read Tertullian is that when he agrees with orthodoxy we can agree with him, but when he disagrees with orthodoxy we do not agree with him, his writings should be read carefully and with a large grain of salt. That Tertullian believed that if one is baptized and then sins after baptism they had little to no chance of salvation does not make it Christian teaching, it only makes it Tertullian's opinion--an opinion which is counter to both Scripture and the general patristic witness of faith.

In his work the Apostolic Traditions, Hippolytus writes rather casually concerning the baptism of infants.

There's no evidence that I am aware of that the baptism of infants is a "later acretion", but is was the normative practice of the Church from the beginning. And while we cannot say that there were any infants in the households mentioned in Scripture, it would be remarkable that there wouldn't be any infants at all in any of them.

We know that the Jewish practice of conversion utilizing tevilah in a mikveh includes the "baptism" of infants when their parents convert, so the Jewish precedence in the Christian Sacrament of Baptism is one that includes children, rather than excluding them.

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Secondly, there is no indication in Ephesians 5:26 that this is the normal pattern since it is talking about Christ's second coming. The whole context is here:

Ephesians 5:25–27 ESV
“Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, that she might be holy and without blemish.”

Once again, there is no mention of infant baptism in this passage, and the closest you can get to Baptism saving someone here is that a husband has already been saved and then baptizes his wife, so she gets saved. There's no mention of getting baptized against a person's will or without their consent. It is analogous to Christ and the church and, as such, should not necessarily be taken as a normative practice. I think far too much emphasis is placed on the phrase "washing of water with the word." but there is no indication that this is to be thought of as normative. It is far too vague for that. And as far as I am aware, this is the only place in the Bible with this phrase. So you Lutherans are making an entire doctrine based on a vague verse. And baptism in this passage is talking about a "washing," not a saving endeavor. So whatever it is, it cannot be used to say baptism is the only way someone gets saved.

The point Paul is making is that husbands are to love their wives even as Christ loved His Church, laying down His life for her and cleansing her with the washing of water with the word. It is Christ who loves, lays down His life, having made His Church clean and pure by grace. Husbands are, therefore, to be imitators of Christ's entirely selfless and sacrificial love in regard to their wives.

The point I was making wasn't that this passage is an argument for who should or shouldn't be baptized; but rather what baptism is and does: Christ has cleansed us through the washing of water with the word--i.e. baptism. "Washing of water with the word" is a reference to Christian Baptism; and the main point I was making in that is that it is "water with the word"; baptism is not just water, it is water connected to and comprehended with God's word.

Jesse Dornfeld said:
And finally, in regards to 1 Peter 3:21, this should not necessarily be taken that Baptism is the whole means of salvation or the exact point that someone gets saved, but rather, it largely depends on how literally you take the phrase, "baptism now saves you." But we know that St Clement of Rome said, "Noah preached repentance, and as many as listened to him were saved." So once again, repentance takes priority in saving faith over baptism. And it's okay if you want to dismiss what Clement said, just know that this was written in the first century and so demonstrates what the early church believed at the time.

How does St. Clement's statement refute "baptism now saves you"? Saying "repentance takes priority in saving faith over baptism" does not follow from St. Clement's statement, nor is there a competition to be made between the preaching of repentance and the call and invitation of the Gospel to save.

Those who repent are to be baptized.
The baptized are to repent.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

-CryptoLutheran

grasping the after wind · Jan 10, 2023

I haven't had a conversation with anyone that considered Baptism to be what saves a person. Therefore i haven't heard an argument for that POV. From what I understand, the Sacrament we call Baptism is the outward sign of salvation not the cause of salvation. Salvation is given to us by the Grace of God through faith. That salvation is the process of the Baptism of the Spirit not the practice of water Baptism which John the Baptist was known for. The Baptism of the Spirit is not the same as the ceremony in which there is a recitation of words and either full or partial immersion in water.

ViaCrucis · Jan 10, 2023

grasping the after wind said:
I haven't had a conversation with anyone that considered Baptism to be what saves a person. Therefore i haven't heard an argument for that POV. From what I understand, the Sacrament we call Baptism is the outward sign of salvation not the cause of salvation. Salvation is given to us by the Grace of God through faith. That salvation is the process of the Baptism of the Spirit not the practice of water Baptism which John the Baptist was known for. The Baptism of the Spirit is not the same as the ceremony in which there is a recitation of words and either full or partial immersion in water.

Baptism doesn't save ex opere operato, as though the mere act itself is salvific; rather Baptism saves because of God's word which is connected and comprehended with the water.

Baptism, therefore accomplishes that which it declares; it is the sign and seal of God's grace; for Baptism is His work, not a work of men, for here is God's word and name and institution which He says is for the forgiveness of sins.

Since you're a Lutheran as well, we see this rather plainly laid out in the Large Catechism which is a faithful exposition of Holy and Divine Scripture.

-CryptoLutheran

GDL · Jan 11, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Mark 16:16 ESV
““Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.””

Why didn't Jesus say, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned?"

I can only assume that someone can be saved without being baptized. Of course, this does not mean that baptism is "bad" or that we should not be baptized. All it means is that baptism is not as fundamental to being a Christian as faith is.

I'm not entering into the whole discussion on baptism here, but the logic in this verse seems to be believes and is baptized. If no belief, then no baptism, or baptism is meaningless. IOW, this does not negate the necessity for baptism for salvation according to the first statement, it just ties baptism to belief.

Belief + Baptism > Saved
Belief - Baptism > Condemned
No Belief +/- Baptism > Condemned

If Baptism is not required for Salvation, then it needs to come from and be explained in other Scripture.

Also, how do you interpret this - who is baptizing? NKJ John 3:26 And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified-- behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!"

BobRyan · Jan 11, 2023

Clare73 said:
Baptism is into the death of Christ (Ro 6:3) which remits sin by faith, and Christ had not yet died.

And in the communion service "

1 Cor 11: 25 In the same way He also took the cup after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me.” 26 For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until He comes."

Luke 7:
30 the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.

The aspect of Baptism that saves according to 1 Peter 3 is not the waters/the sacrament / -- it is "the appeal to God for a clean conscience" on the part of the sinner.

But following in full water baptism as we see in the case of John the baptizer and Christ - is to follow the born again experience with obedience.

Jamdoc · Jan 11, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Matthew 4:17 ESV
“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.””

Why is it that Christ did not start his ministry saying, "You all need to be baptized," and instead said the above?

Acts 16:30–31 ESV
“Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.””

Why was the condition for salvation belief in the Lord Jesus and not baptism?

Mark 16:16 ESV
““Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.””

Why didn't Jesus say, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned?"

I can only assume that someone can be saved without being baptized. Of course, this does not mean that baptism is "bad" or that we should not be baptized. All it means is that baptism is not as fundamental to being a Christian as faith is.

Now, I know people are going to appeal to church history here. But consider...

1 Corinthians 1:14 ESV
“I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,”

So the question becomes, "Who baptized these people?"

And if Christ Himself never baptized anyone but calls everyone to repent, what does that say?

Baptism is a symbol of your old life dying with Jesus and being buried and resurrecting as a new creation.

Repentance is that change, where you stop believing what you currently believe and stop living the way you are currently living and believe on Christ and take up a new life.

GDL · Jan 11, 2023

BobRyan said:
The aspect of Baptism that saves according to 1 Peter 3 is not the waters/the sacrament / -- it is "the appeal to God for a clean conscience" on the part of the sinner.

Interesting that you used the word "appeal". Translations typically struggle with this one.

FWIW I came to the conclusion that "appeal" is the way to translate this. Then, in tracking the concept of the clean conscience in the NC Scriptures, I came to see that it was associated with the growth to maturity. With these understandings I prepared a pre-baptism class that basically taught what the new Christian was appealing to God for in baptism before I would baptize. The appeal is for God to take them through the Salvation process from beginning to end and do whatever necessary to raise, teach, train, test, cleanse, purify, sanctify them from sin in the process. IOW aligning them with God's will for His Children and letting them know this is not some game. It included instruction on obedience, something I think those in old times understood better than we as they aligned themselves with a new God & King - a new authority they would submit to - potentially meaning death at the hands of kings.

I think many to most have lost so much of what we're dealing with and doing.

BobRyan · Jan 11, 2023

We take new believers through a short set of Bible studies (12 to 28 lessons depending on the person doing the studies) - to make sure that we have full disclosure for new believers as to exactly what they are signing up for when they agree to be a baptized believer - a member of the body of Christ.

ViaCrucis · Jan 11, 2023

GDL said:
I'm not entering into the whole discussion on baptism here, but the logic in this verse seems to be believes and is baptized. If no belief, then no baptism, or baptism is meaningless. IOW, this does not negate the necessity for baptism for salvation according to the first statement, it just ties baptism to belief.

Belief + Baptism > Saved
Belief - Baptism > Condemned
No Belief +/- Baptism > Condemned

If Baptism is not required for Salvation, then it needs to come from and be explained in other Scripture.

Also, how do you interpret this - who is baptizing? NKJ John 3:26 And they came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, He who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you have testified-- behold, He is baptizing, and all are coming to Him!"

Baptism and faith are inexorably connected, it is impossible to talk about baptism apart from faith. Not because faith by necessity precedes baptism, but because baptism is the gracious work and power of God which works and creates faith in us. Thus the baptized infant truly does have faith. For faith is not a work of human will, power, or intellect; faith is the work and gift of God, just as it is written that it is "by grace that we are saved through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that none may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9) "by grace we are saved through faith" is the work and power and gift of God. And God works and creates this faith by His word (Romans 10:17), so that wherever God's word is, there God is at work creating, working, sustaining, and strengthening faith. So, seeing as baptism is "the washing of water with the word" (Ephesians 5:26), God having connected His word to the water of Baptism makes this thing no mere water, but water comprehended in and with His word: And His word is powerful, living, and active (Hebrews 4:12), accomplishing that which He sets it out to do (Isaiah 55:11).

Therefore whoever is baptized has faith. Such faith may be short lived, as we read in the Parable of the Sower that where the word is sown it sometimes takes root but is choked out. But faith is there because God's word is there active, living, and accomplishing His purpose: To give and create and strengthen faith.

-CryptoLutheran

GDL · Jan 11, 2023

ViaCrucis said:
Baptism and faith are inexorably connected, it is impossible to talk about baptism apart from faith. Not because faith by necessity precedes baptism, but because baptism is the gracious work and power of God which works and creates faith in us. Thus the baptized infant truly does have faith. For faith is not a work of human will, power, or intellect; faith is the work and gift of God, just as it is written that it is "by grace that we are saved through faith, and this is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works so that none may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9) "by grace we are saved through faith" is the work and power and gift of God. And God works and creates this faith by His word (Romans 10:17), so that wherever God's word is, there God is at work creating, working, sustaining, and strengthening faith. So, seeing as baptism is "the washing of water with the word" (Ephesians 5:26), God having connected His word to the water of Baptism makes this thing no mere water, but water comprehended in and with His word: And His word is powerful, living, and active (Hebrews 4:12), accomplishing that which He sets it out to do (Isaiah 55:11).

Therefore whoever is baptized has faith. Such faith may be short lived, as we read in the Parable of the Sower that where the word is sown it sometimes takes root but is choked out. But faith is there because God's word is there active, living, and accomplishing His purpose: To give and create and strengthen faith.

-CryptoLutheran

That's one POV and an example of what I prefer to not get into at this time. Too many things to address. Maybe someone else will answer.

rturner76 · Jan 11, 2023

Repentance shows a person's desire to no longer follow self-will but God's will. Without repentance, one has made no change.

Guojing · Jan 11, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Matthew 4:17 ESV
“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.””

Why is it that Christ did not start his ministry saying, "You all need to be baptized," and instead said the above?

Acts 16:30–31 ESV
“Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.””

Why was the condition for salvation belief in the Lord Jesus and not baptism?

Mark 16:16 ESV
““Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.””

Why didn't Jesus say, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned?"

I can only assume that someone can be saved without being baptized. Of course, this does not mean that baptism is "bad" or that we should not be baptized. All it means is that baptism is not as fundamental to being a Christian as faith is.

Now, I know people are going to appeal to church history here. But consider...

1 Corinthians 1:14 ESV
“I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,”

So the question becomes, "Who baptized these people?"

And if Christ Himself never baptized anyone but calls everyone to repent, what does that say?

Once you are clear that Jesus first coming was for the nation of Israel (Matthew 15:24, Romans 15:8), and the message of the gospel of the kingdom, you will understand why Israel had to repent and be water baptized, while we gentiles don't need to.

Doug Brents · Jan 12, 2023

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Matthew 4:17 ESV
“From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.””

Why is it that Christ did not start his ministry saying, "You all need to be baptized," and instead said the above?

Because the first thing needed is belief in Jesus. If there is no belief, then baptism just gets you wet and nothing else.

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Acts 16:30–31 ESV
“Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.””

Why was the condition for salvation belief in the Lord Jesus and not baptism?

That is all that is mentioned, but it was not all that was taught (as I will show below).

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Mark 16:16 ESV
““Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.””

Why didn't Jesus say, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned?"

Again, if they didn’t believe then baptism would be meaningless.

Jesse Dornfeld said:
I can only assume that someone can be saved without being baptized. Of course, this does not mean that baptism is "bad" or that we should not be baptized. All it means is that baptism is not as fundamental to being a Christian as faith is.

That might be the case if we didn’t have direct association between baptism and salvation, but we do, that your assumption would leave those people lost in sin.

Jesse Dornfeld said:
Now, I know people are going to appeal to church history here. But consider...

1 Corinthians 1:14 ESV
“I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius,”

So the question becomes, "Who baptized these people?"

Crispus, Gaius, the people they baptized, Apollos, or Cephas. This was the division that Paul was attacking.

Jesse Dornfeld said:
And if Christ Himself never baptized anyone but calls everyone to repent, what does that say?

Nothing at all.

Let’s look at what Scripture say about the connection between baptism and salvation:

Let’s start with one of your passages.
Mark 16:15-16 - “And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.”
He does not address someone who believes but is not baptized because that is an oxymoron. If you really believe then you will obey, because that is what faith is.

Acts 2:37-38 - “Now when they heard this, they were pierced to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what are we to do?” Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
They were pierced to the heart. I think that means they believed the message Peter was preaching (that Jesus is the Messiah).

Next these men asked, “What are we to do (to be saved from the consequences of killing the Messiah)?” Contrary to how some would put it, Peter didn’t say that there is nothing left to do because Jesus did it all on the cross. No, Peter said, “Repent and be baptized for (so that you can receive) the forgiveness of your sins”.
Some would claim “for” here means “because you have received”. But that wouldn’t fit with Acts 3:19, which says, “Therefore repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord”
2:38 doesn’t give any indication that we repent so that we can be forgiven and then are baptized because we have been forgiven. No, the same meaning of “for” must be used for both, and it must agree with 3:19.

Acts 8:36 - “Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture (Isaiah) he preached Jesus to him. As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch *said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?””
From this passage we see that baptism was taught from the very beginning as part of “preach[ing]Jesus”, and that it was water baptism, not Spirit baptism.

Rom 6:1-7 - “What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; for the one who has died is freed from sin.”
Paul tells us that those who have been baptized into Christ have died to sin and been united with Christ in a new life. And IF we have been united with Him in likeness of His death (baptism), THEN we will also be like Him in His resurrection. If not….

Col 2:11-14 - “and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision performed without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.”
Paul tells us here, like in Romans, that in (during) baptism the Holy Spirit cuts (circumcises) our sin and sin nature from us, forgiving all our sins and making us alive in Christ.

Acts 22:16 - “Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’”
Now wait a minute, if his sins were forgiven when he believed, (it is clearly evident that he believed by his conversation with Jesus in Acts 9), then he wouldn’t have any sin to wash away three days later when Ananias came to him. But Ananias, through the Holy Spirit, absolutely tells Saul that he is still in sin and must have them washed away in baptism while calling on the name of the Lord.

rturner76 · Jan 12, 2023

When you repent, you set your life on a new path (if it is sincere repentance). Repentance isn't just asking for forgiveness but making a commitment to change your ways.

Jesus Commanded Repentance First. Why?

Slave to Christ

Junior Member

Blood-bought

God is Love

Confessional Lutheran

Slave to Christ

Confessional Lutheran

That's grasping after the wind

Confessional Lutheran

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Watching and Praying Always

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Confessional Lutheran

Well-Known Member

Domine non-sum dignus

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Domine non-sum dignus

Similar threads