‘The Letter of the Law is Deadly’- But Have Not All Sinned?

newton3005 said:

2 Corinthians 3:4-6 says the following: “Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of ca new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

Is not the “letter” referred to here the letter of the Law of the Old Testament, which is a minefield of possible sins one can commit by not following the Law? The inference of 2 Corinthians 3:6 appears to be that the letter of the Law is the stick, and the Spirit is the carrot.

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Actually, the teaching of 2 Co 3:6 is that the letter (written code) curses all those who rely on it (Gal 3:10), because it must be kept perfectly to make one righteous before God. . .no one can do that, so it condemns everyone to death--it kills.
Whereas, the Holy Spirit in the new birth gives life whereby, through faith, Jesus' righteousness is credited (imputed) to one (Ro 4:1-11), thereby making one righteous before God--the Spirit gives life.

newton3005 said:

Is the New Testament without threats of punishment due to the commission of sin? Romans 3:23 says “...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...” what exactly those sins are, are barely mentioned in the New Testament. There are at least twelve sins listed in Mark 7:21-22. These sins are covered in the Laws of the Old Testament. But the general definition of sin in the New Testament is defined by Romans 14:23 which says, “...For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.” So, as long as you have faith in God, you will not sin

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However, that is taken out of context, leading to a wrong conclusion.
The context is doubtfulness.
If you are doubtful regarding the sinfulness of anything, then it is sin for you, because doing it "does not proceed from faith."
And that is simply because if it is possible that the action is sin, and you are willing to do it anyway, then you are willing to do sin.

newton3005 said:

and you will be blessed in all the days of your life, both here and in God’s Kingdom. How much different from that is Deuteronomy 28:1-14 which describes the benefits of abiding by God’s Law?

In the Old Testament, faith in God comes through the Law, but in the New Testament it comes through love.

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Actually, in the OT faith is believing in the Promise (Ge 15:5--Seed, Jesus Christ--Gal 3:16), by which faith Abraham and the OT saints were made righteous (Ge 15:6; Ro 4:3), not through the Law.

newton3005 said:

The Old Testament gives you a command to have faith, but the New Testament implies a choice,

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Actually, the NT commands (Ac 17:30, 1 Jn 3:23, Mk 1:15, Jn 6:28-29).

newton3005 said:

leaving it up to you as to which path you want to take. But all the 500 some-odd Laws of the Old Testament have invariably been melted into the proclamation of faith in God in the New Testament. So faith in God includes things mentioned in the 500 Laws, and much more. Faith comes from love, of which there aren’t enough words in the universe to list what love is made up of, whether that love be for God or for others. We only know that love for both God and others is necessary for our faith in Him.

In certain respects, the Letter of the Law is faith in God by numbers, but faith in God through Christ arises to being based on pure feeling, which is what love is.

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Actually, Biblical love is not based on "feeling," for we are to love our enemies, and that is not about "feeling" love, that is about acting in love.
Feelings are not reliable indicators, actions are (Jn 14:15, 21, 23, 15:10, 1 Jn 2:5, 5:3, 2 Jn 6).

Aaron112 said:

Neither faith in Jesus nor His Love is based on feelings. Nor emotions.

Faith is a gift from the Father in heaven, Given as He Pleases.
Love is a choice of the will to obey Him, always.

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Jesus' example of love of neighbor was the Jew helping the (despised) disabled Samaritan on the side of the road,
and the Jew not actually administering the care himself, but paying someone else to do it.

Clare73 said:

Actually, Biblical love is not based on "feeling," for we are to love our enemies, and that is not about "feeling" love, that is about acting in love.

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We are to love our enemy and in that we love ourselves. They will laugh at us and see it as a weakness that we do good (well) to those who want to harm or even kill us.

Diamond7 said:

We are to love our enemy and in that we love ourselves. They will laugh at us and see it as a weakness that we do good (well) to those who want to harm or even kill us.

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Actually, "love our neighbor as we love ourselves" does not mean simultaneously, but means in the same way.

As we are committed to our own well being, so we are to be committed to our neighbor's well being, doing what is necessary for him that he cannot do for himself, as in the Jew for the injured Samaritan in Jesus' parable.

Clare73 said:

Actually, "love our neighbor as we love ourselves" does not mean simultaneously, but means in the same way.

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We had a foreign exchange student from Wuhan, China. It turns out that during the Vietnam War his father was delivering weapons to North Vietnam. The army was training me to put bodies in body bags. Taking good care of his son is loving your enemy. For me, Vietnam is a war that never should have happened. His father was well to do. He built factories and managed them. The son went on to get his engineering degree. When he graduated he got a job where they provide temp power when building a factory. Most likely a job his father got for him.

newton3005 said:

2 Corinthians 3:4-6 says the following: “Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of ca new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

Is not the “letter” referred to here the letter of the Law of the Old Testament, which is a minefield of possible sins one can commit by not following the Law? The inference of 2 Corinthians 3:6 appears to be that the letter of the Law is the stick, and the Spirit is the carrot.

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God is a loving Father who knows how to give good gifts to His children, so He did not give His law with the goal of bringing death to His children, but rather He gave it as a precious gift for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and in order to bring us life. Likewise, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirt has the role of leading us to obey God's law, so 2 Corinthians 3 should be interpreted in light of these verses in a way that is not contrary to them.

The distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law I not in regard to following different sets of laws, but in regard to the manner in which we follow them according to its intent. For example, in Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that tithing was something that they ought to be doing, but not while neglecting weighting matters of the law of justice, mercy, and faith, so Jesus was not opposing their obedience to God's law as if it would bring them death, but rather the issue was that they were not obeying it in a correct manner that was expressing its weightier manners, which are aspects of God's nature or fruits of the Spirit that the law was intended to teach us how to express, and which are how the law brings life, apart from which the law brings death. Likewise:

Leviticus 19:12 You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.

Someone who was focus on obeying the spirit of this law would understand that its intent is for us to now swear falsely, whereas someone who was focused on obeying the letter of this law exactly how it is written would understand that we are free to swear falsely just as long as we don't do so in God's name, which incidentally was the issue that Jesus was speaking against in Matthew 5:33-37). So obeying the letter of the law undermines both the intent of what God has commanded and why He has commanded it, which therefore leads to death just as assuredly as refusing to submit to it.

newton3005 said:

Is the New Testament without threats of punishment due to the commission of sin? Romans 3:23 says “...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...” what exactly those sins are, are barely mentioned in the New Testament. There are at least twelve sins listed in Mark 7:21-22. These sins are covered in the Laws of the Old Testament. But the general definition of sin in the New Testament is defined by Romans 14:23 which says, “...For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.” So, as long as you have faith in God, you will not sin and you will be blessed in all the days of your life, both here and in God’s Kingdom. How much different from that is Deuteronomy 28:1-14 which describes the benefits of abiding by God’s Law?

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In Romans 3:20, God's law was given to give us knowledge of what sin, so it shouldn't be a mystery what those sins are in Romans 3:23 or in the rest of the NT. In 1 John 3:4, sin is whatever is in transgression of God's law, in 14:23, sin is whatever is not of faith, and in Matthew 23:23, faith is one of the weightier matters of God's law, so whatever is in transgression of God's law is not of faith. In Matthew 4:17-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, and God's law is how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is the way to believe in the Gospel of the Kingdom, which is not different from what is described in Deuteronomy 28:1-14.

newton3005 said:

In the Old Testament, faith in God comes through the Law, but in the New Testament it comes through love. The Old Testament gives you a command to have faith, but the New Testament implies a choice, leaving it up to you as to which path you want to take. But all the 500 some-odd Laws of the Old Testament have invariably been melted into the proclamation of faith in God in the New Testament. So faith in God includes things mentioned in the 500 Laws, and much more. Faith comes from love, of which there aren’t enough words in the universe to list what love is made up of, whether that love be for God or for others. We only know that love for both God and others is necessary for our faith in Him.

In certain respects, the Letter of the Law is faith in God by numbers, but faith in God through Christ arises to being based on pure feeling, which is what love is.

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In Matthew 22:36-40, Jesus said that loving God and our neighbor are the greatest two commandments of God's law and that all of the other commandments hang on them, so everything commanded in the OT is in regard to how to love God and our neighbor, which is not different in the NT.

Soyeong said:

God is a loving Father who knows how to give good gifts to His children, so He did not give His law with the goal of bringing death to His children, but rather He gave it as a precious gift for our own good in order to bless us (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13) and in order to bring us life. Likewise, in Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirt has the role of leading us to obey God's law, so 2 Corinthians 3 should be interpreted in light of these verses in a way that is not contrary to them.

The distinction between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is not in regard to following different sets of laws, but in regard to the manner in which we follow them according to its intent.

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2 Co 3:6 - ". . .for the letter kills by the Spirit gives life."

Agreed, it is not about following different sets of laws, but it also is not about intent.
In context, it is about law vs. grace. . .grace vs. works. . .OC vs. NC.

The "letter" is the law in the written code. It curses all those who rely on it (Gal 3:10), because it must be kept perfectly in order to make one righteous before God. . .no one can do that. . .so it condemns everyone to death--it kills;.
That's life under the Old Covenant of law, righteousness by works, which is impossible = judgment/condemnation.

Under the New Covenant, we are not made righteous by law keeping (no one is), but by the new birth of the Holy Spirit, where through faith in the person and atoning work (Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ, we are justified, i.e., declared "not guilty" by God, declared forensically righteous, with Jesus' righteousness reckoned/accounted/credited/imputed to us.

The distinction between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law is not about intent, but about law vs. grace.

Clare73 said:

2 Co 3:6 - ". . .for the letter kills by the Spirit gives life."

Agreed, it is not about following different sets of laws, but it also is not about intent.
In context, it is about law vs. grace. . .grace vs. works. . .OC vs. NC.

The "letter" is the law in the written code. It curses all those who rely on it (Gal 3:10), because it must be kept perfectly in order to make one righteous before God. . .no one can do that. . .so it condemns everyone to death--it kills;.
That's life under the Old Covenant of law, righteousness by works, which is impossible = judgment/condemnation.

Under the New Covenant, we are not made righteous by law keeping (no one is), but by the new birth of the Holy Spirit, where through faith in the person and atoning work (Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ, we are justified, i.e., declared "not guilty" by God, declared forensically righteous, with Jesus' righteousness reckoned/accounted/credited/imputed to us.

The distinction between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law is not about intent, but about law vs. grace.

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God is not opposed to Himself so God's law vs. God's grace is contra-Biblical. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him His way that he might know Him and Israel too, in 1 Kings 2:1-3, God taught how to walk in His way through His law, and in John 17:3, eternal life is knowing God and Jesus. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness, so this has always been the only way of becoming righteous by grace through faith. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what ungodly, so God graciously teaching us to obey His law is again the content of His gift of salvation.

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so relying on God's law for our salvation is the way to rely on God for our salvation, while it is contradictory for you to think that we should rely on God for our salvation, but should not rely on what He has 6instructed. In Deuteronomy 28:1-14, God's law blesses those who rely on it, while in Deuteronomy 28:15-68, it is curses all those who don't rely on it. Likewise, in Galatians 3:10, it doesn't say that God's law curses those who rely on it, but that it curses all those who don't continue to do everything in it, which are those who don't continue to rely on it.

In Romana 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the way to become righteous before God is through perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, obedience to God's law is presented as a choice and as a possibility that is not too difficult for us, not as the need for perfect obedience. Even if someone managed to have perfect obedience, then they still wouldn't earn their righteousness as a wage (Romans 4:5), so the reason why we can't earn our righteousness as a wage by obeying God's law is not because no one can have perfect obedience, but because it was never given as a means of doing that. Earning our righteousness as a wage has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law, which is why there are many verses that speak against that.

In 1 John 3:4-10, those who do not practice righteousness in obedience to God's law are not children of God, so a new birth by the Spirit does not involve doing something other than living in obedience to God's law, especially because that is the role of the Spirit (Ezekiel 36:26-27). Christ expressed his righteousness by living in obedience to God's law, so that is also the way that we live when we are imputed with his righteousness.

You also neglected to give any sort of justification for denying that the difference been the letter of the law and the spirit of the law is in regard to intent.

Soyeong said:

God is not opposed to Himself so God's law vs. God's grace is contra-Biblical.

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Not in grace/faith vs. works of salvation/justification (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28)

Clare73 said:

Not in grace/faith vs. works of salvation/justification (Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28)

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A gift can't be earned as a wage, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as those works are done to earn a wage, however, works can be done for any number of other reasons that are not incompatible with grace, especially because God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law and none of His laws were commanded for the purpose of providing the means of earning our salvation/justification as a wage.

In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while it denies that we can be saved as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless an integral part of being saved by grace, which again is in accordance with the verses that I cited that show that God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law. In Romans 3:31, or faith does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, so again works are part of being righteous and you should not interpret Romans 3:28 in a way that is contrary to Romans 3:31.

Soyeong said:

A gift can't be earned as a wage, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as those works are done to earn a wage, however, works can be done for any number of other reasons

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But not for salvation or justification, where grace/faith and works are mutually exclusive, and not contra-Biblical to Eph 2:8-9, Ro 3:28.
In authoritative NT apostolic teaching, if you have one, you cannot have the other in salvation/justification.

In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do works, so it is contra-Biblical to say that they are mutually exclusive for salvation. Rather, for salvation, grace and works are mutually exclusive insofar as those works are done for the purpose of earning our salvation, but are not mutually exclusive insofar as works are done for other reasons. While Paul denied in Romans 4:5 that we can earn our justification as a wage, he also said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified, so while there are incorrect for doing works, there are also correct reasons for doing works.

Likewise in Matthew 19:17, Jesus said that the way to enter eternal life is by obeying God's commandments. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus said that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments. In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them. In Romans 2:6-7, eternal life is given to those who persist in doing good. In Romans 6:19-23, obedience to God's law is His gift of eternal life. In Exodus 33:13 and John 17:3, God's law is the way to know Him, which is eternal life. In Hebrews 5:9, Jesus is a source of eternal life for those who obey him. In Revelation 14:12, those who obeyed God's commanders are given the right to eat from the Tree of Life. So there is abundant support from the Bible that the gift of salvation/justification/eternal life requires choosing to do works that are not mutually exclusive with grace.

Soyeong said:

He gave it as a precious gift for our own good in order to bless us

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David talks about how we can be good. Paul talks about how we can be righteous before God.

Diamond7 said:

David talks about how we can be good. Paul talks about how we can be righteous before God.

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In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trined by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is neither the case that our salvation is the result of doing those works nor that doing those works is the result of our salvation, but rather the content of God's gift of salvation is being trained by grace to do those works. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents, not one resulting from the other. In Ephesians 2:8-10, we are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denies that we are saved as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, doing good works is nevertheless intrinsically part of Jesus saving us from not doing good works.

Soyeong said:

trained by grace to do those works

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Yes, the grace of God does the work in us.

newton3005 said:

2 Corinthians 3:4-6 says the following: “Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of ca new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

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This is referring to the condemnation of the law, not the law itself. Paul says this about the law Romans 7:12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. And what matters is keeping the commandments of God 1 Cor 7:19. The Old Covenant the commandments were written on stone, the New Covenant, these same commandments are written in our hearts and minds Hebrews 8:10 and Jesus gives us His Spirit for those who want to obey John 14:15-18.

newton3005 said:

Is not the “letter” referred to here the letter of the Law of the Old Testament, which is a minefield of possible sins one can commit by not following the Law? The inference of 2 Corinthians 3:6 appears to be that the letter of the Law is the stick, and the Spirit is the carrot.

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If we are walking by the Spirit, the letter would be kept. Jesus gives an example of this right from the Ten Commandments- murder begins in the heart. Matthew 5:19-30. What Jesus wants is our hearts changed from the inside out- if we change our thoughts and feelings of contempt and anger towards our neighbor to love and compassion, 'Thou shalt not murder' will automatically be kept. These verses are not a license to literally break the commandments, walking in the Spirit is greater than keeping the letter. The Spirit and the letter work in harmony Romans 8:1-8. If we find ourselves breaking the letter, we know we are not walking in the Spirit which is given to help us obey John 14:15-18, and those who obey Acts 5:32

newton3005 said:

Is the New Testament without threats of punishment due to the commission of sin? Romans 3:23 says “...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...” what exactly those sins are, are barely mentioned in the New Testament. There are at least twelve sins listed in Mark 7:21-22. These sins are covered in the Laws of the Old Testament. But the general definition of sin in the New Testament is defined by Romans 14:23 which says, “...For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.” So, as long as you have faith in God, you will not sin and you will be blessed in all the days of your life, both here and in God’s Kingdom. How much different from that is Deuteronomy 28:1-14 which describes the benefits of abiding by God’s Law?

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The wages of sin is death, both in the New and Old Covenant. In the New Covenant, Jesus became our Sacrificial Lamb for the forgiveness of sin and sanctification when we repent and turn from sin and walk with Him in obedience. Jesus is our Mediator now, and we can go right to Him if we slip and fall and ask Him to gain victory over our sins. While it is impossible to obey on our own, it is possible through Jesus Philippians 4:13

newton3005 said:

In the Old Testament, faith in God comes through the Law, but in the New Testament it comes through love.

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We have always been saved by grace through faith. In the Old Testament it was looking forward to Christ in the New Testament looking back at the Cross. We are only saved through the blood of Jesus, but those who have been changed by Jesus keep His commandments through love and faith. 1 John 5:3, John 14:15, Exodus 20:6, Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12, Revelation 22:14

newton3005 said:

In certain respects, the Letter of the Law is faith in God by numbers, but faith in God through Christ arises to being based on pure feeling, which is what love is.

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This is where people tend to fall, Proverbs 3:5-6 they go by feelings instead of what is written. God's Word is a light to our path Psalms 119:105 and we are sanctified by the Truth of His Word John 17:17 all of God's commandments are Truth Psalms 119:151 and if we love Jesus, we will keep His commandments John 14:15 - the commandments of God and the commandments of Jesus are one of the same. John 14:15, Exodus 20:6, John 15:10 Jesus came to do the will of the Father John 6:38 and came to magnify the law Isaiah 42:21 which means to make greater.

newton3005 said:

2 Corinthians 3:4-6 says the following: “Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of ca new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.”

Is not the “letter” referred to here the letter of the Law of the Old Testament, which is a minefield of possible sins one can commit by not following the Law? The inference of 2 Corinthians 3:6 appears to be that the letter of the Law is the stick, and the Spirit is the carrot.

Is the New Testament without threats of punishment due to the commission of sin? Romans 3:23 says “...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God...” what exactly those sins are, are barely mentioned in the New Testament. There are at least twelve sins listed in Mark 7:21-22. These sins are covered in the Laws of the Old Testament. But the general definition of sin in the New Testament is defined by Romans 14:23 which says, “...For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.” So, as long as you have faith in God, you will not sin and you will be blessed in all the days of your life, both here and in God’s Kingdom. How much different from that is Deuteronomy 28:1-14 which describes the benefits of abiding by God’s Law?

In the Old Testament, faith in God comes through the Law, but in the New Testament it comes through love. The Old Testament gives you a command to have faith, but the New Testament implies a choice, leaving it up to you as to which path you want to take. But all the 500 some-odd Laws of the Old Testament have invariably been melted into the proclamation of faith in God in the New Testament. So faith in God includes things mentioned in the 500 Laws, and much more. Faith comes from love, of which there aren’t enough words in the universe to list what love is made up of, whether that love be for God or for others. We only know that love for both God and others is necessary for our faith in Him.

In certain respects, the Letter of the Law is faith in God by numbers, but faith in God through Christ arises to being based on pure feeling, which is what love is.

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Yes, when we love God and neighbor we obey and fulfull the law the right way, the way God wants us to fulfill it. Against this there is no law, and the law doesn't even need to be heard in order to fulfill it by love. That love comes by virtue of the fellowship or union with God that man is made for, and that Jesus came to restore/establish as He reconciles man with Himself.

fhansen said:

fulfill it by love.

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In Heaven if they want to talk to someone about you, they will ask you first. Then they will take you with them so you can hear the conversation. They do not talk behind your back there. That would be a little difficult to do here on Earth.

Diamond7 said:

In Heaven if they want to talk to someone about you, they will ask you first. Then they will take you with them so you can hear the conversation. They do not talk behind your back there. That would be a little difficult to do here on Earth.

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I don't believe we'll be perfected in love in this life, but we're to be on that path now, children of God, who is love.