Undercurrents in the church: The ever-widening gap

Saint Steven said:

Where should I go?

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A Bible-believing one.

Saint Steven said:

1) Does your church support your personal beliefs?

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Yes. Were you expecting a no?

Saint Steven said:

2) Have you left the church due to doctrinal, or Christian practice issues?

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No, that would not be wise.

Saint Steven said:

3) Do you have to keep your mouth shut about certain subjects at church?

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No.

Saint Steven said:

4) Are you feeling alienated by the church?

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Not at all. I have great fellowship with the people at my church. Sorry, you can't find a church to suit your special needs.

Saint Steven said:

5) Do you feel guilty at church about your differences?

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No. As stated, my church family knows where I stand on things, and I wouldn't leave just because my views were challenged. But so far, they haven't been.

I am free grace (for eternal life salvation) plus a true literal Bible description of creation reading believer (that means a dome covered plain stationary earth).

So i really am not sure, but i highly doubt there is a church any where that teaches free grace and true literal Biblical creation.

Plus i am late 50's and single, never married so no children. I do not go to the church (southern baptist) i was raised and grew up in, but i am still a member there. I have come to see church in many ways as a social club, that if a person is married and have family, is is an attractive place to go for activities. Especially to give the kids something to do in a mostly moral environment.

I am Catholic ( at least on the fringe of it). And there is a wide spectrum of theology and practice even with clear boundaries.
So when it comes to things that I find myself... not fully aligned with some of the teaching I look at it in terms of language and symbol.
Or I just view the hierarchy as a big dysfunctional family, like most families and churches. if there ere and eastern orthodox church near me I would check it out..

Saint Steven said:

The ever-widening gap between the institution and laity.

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I see this as a good thing. The church is not an institution, but there are many institutions related to Christianity. I think as time goes along institutions will fade and the body of Christ will be united in Spirit and love, at least that is my persistent prayer. Institutions form over time and end over time, the body of Christ is forever.

Saint Steven said:

1) Does your church support your personal beliefs?

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Yes, they do for the most part (PCUSA). As far as universal reconciliation is concerned, the institution takes an agnostic position.

Saint Steven said:

2) Have you left the church due to doctrinal, or Christian practice issues?

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I left the denomination I grew up in because I did not agree with some of theology and joined the one I'm now a member of because I do agree with their theology and their active concern for people, particularly the poor and disenfranchised. That being said, it's still an institution with the problems that come with it. Happily, I can say that in the presence of our leadership and they will most likely agree lol.

Saint Steven said:

3) Do you have to keep your mouth shut about certain subjects at church?

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If I keep my mouth shut it is due to an individual opinion and not the denomination's authority. I'm not going to create an issue if someone disagrees with me. But the denomination, as a whole, is open to differing opinions and positions. For instance, our Book of Confessions contains a number of confessions because we see them as interpretations of scripture so that no one confession is binding on the conscience. We assert there is only one Lord of the conscience-God. The institution is not the Lord of an individual conscience.

Saint Steven said:

4) Are you feeling alienated by the church?

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No. I just think churches and denominations need to overcome their differences and become united in the love of Christ. Our greatest power is our unity in love and we squander it.

Saint Steven said:

5) Do you feel guilty at church about your differences?

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No.

Saint Steven said:

Undercurrents in the church: The ever-widening gap between the institution and laity.

Like a sofa; one size fits all. Or so it would seem.
Many "parishioners" are finding their own way spiritually in a church that is stuck on "old time religion".

I'm a Christian Universalist. There are no churches in my area that support that view. Where should I go?
The current CF topic discussion on Christian Mysticism focuses on yet another largely unrepresented segment of Christianity.
There are probably other spiritual beliefs and practices that are either not supported, or actually not condoned.

FIVE QUESTIONS:
1) Does your church support your personal beliefs?
2) Have you left the church due to doctrinal, or Christian practice issues?
3) Do you have to keep your mouth shut about certain subjects at church?
4) Are you feeling alienated by the church?
5) Do you feel guilty at church about your differences?

--- EDIT ---

I imagine that personal issues like gender identity and sexual orientation will be a huge undercurrent issue in the near future.

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I haven't attended or been part of any brick and mortar Church since the 80's. So I cant answer any of your questions per my current situation however, in my 20's I was involved with an AOG congregation but then I was alienated and never returned. I do seek for fellowship, thank God for CF, in a physical group setting but frankly I have no idea where to start.
I was thinking maybe a Church of Christ but they require me to get baptized, again,and they are Cessationists and I am not. Then I thought of going back to an AOG but way too tongues oriented so that's not going to work. Then non- denominational , well most are like a rock and roll concert. Anyhow, the search continues. Blessings.

Saint Steven said:

Thanks for weighing in on this. I appreciate the personal insights. I haven't heard of any churches that are flat-earth friendly.

Since I have been on Christian forums I have met many who don't attend a church. I used to take issue with this. I understand it better now. Though I grew up in church and have gone weekly most of my life.

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The visible church is made up of believers and unbelievers, the one The Messiah is building is the actual church and at this time is not visible.

Saint Steven said:

Do you [know] anyone who is struggling with these issues? Or have you in the past?

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(My Edit.)

Yes, my brother doesn't like our church because it is so small, and as such, there's not anyone his age there (besides me). I'd say more for context, but I want to respect him and not talk behind his back.

Saint Steven said:

1) Does your church support your personal beliefs?

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The Episcopal church, by deliberate choice, allows members to hold a variety of beliefs. We find our unity in common worship rather than in unified belief. We recite the Nicene and Apostles' Creeds regularly in worship; beyond that, we're free to hold many different views on various theological and ethical issues.

So, in that sense, yes, my church supports most of my personal beliefs.

Since you mentioned Christian Universalism earlier, I'll add that Episcopalians hold a variety of views on this issue also. Universal Reconciliation isn't a unanimous view in the Episcopal church, but I've encountered it in the church more than once. The priest of my first Episcopal parish held this view, and he helped guide me to a view of Universal Reconciliation that is fully consistent with the importance of the work of Christ.

Saint Steven said:

2) Have you left the church due to doctrinal, or Christian practice issues?

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In my twenties, I left the Southern Baptists to become Episcopalian. It wasn't exactly about doctrine, though. I was looking for liturgical worship and for a community that was deeply rooted in church Tradition and history.

(Shortly after I left the Southern Baptists, the denomination veered off in a new direction, taking views on gender, Scripture, and scholarship that I disagree with. Had I not already left, I probably would have left over these issues.)

Saint Steven said:

3) Do you have to keep your mouth shut about certain subjects at church?

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I try always to think carefully before I speak. Part of living in a community alongside people with diverse views is finding the balance between speaking with integrity about one's views and speaking with respect and civility in the presence of those who disagree.

For example, I am very nearly a pacifist. I have voiced that view in church on occasion, and I don't feel I have to hide it. But I also don't have to bring it up at coffee hour if I'm standing next to a church member in a Navy uniform.

If you mean "Are there beliefs that would get me kicked out of church if I voiced them?", no I don't think there are any lurking clashes like that.

Saint Steven said:

4) Are you feeling alienated by the church?

5) Do you feel guilty at church about your differences?

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No. There are ways in which I'm different from most members of my parish, but any community is going to have differences, unless they take steps to squash those differences.

Saint Steven said:

I imagine that personal issues like gender identity and sexual orientation will be a huge undercurrent issue in the near future.

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I am fortunate that the Episcopal Church and my parish hold views on these issues that largely match my own views.

Saint Steven said:

Undercurrents in the church: The ever-widening gap between the institution and laity.

Like a sofa; one size fits all. Or so it would seem.
Many "parishioners" are finding their own way spiritually in a church that is stuck on "old time religion".

I'm a Christian Universalist. There are no churches in my area that support that view. Where should I go?
The current CF topic discussion on Christian Mysticism focuses on yet another largely unrepresented segment of Christianity.
There are probably other spiritual beliefs and practices that are either not supported, or actually not condoned.

FIVE QUESTIONS:
1) Does your church support your personal beliefs?
2) Have you left the church due to doctrinal, or Christian practice issues?
3) Do you have to keep your mouth shut about certain subjects at church?
4) Are you feeling alienated by the church?
5) Do you feel guilty at church about your differences?

--- EDIT ---

I imagine that personal issues like gender identity and sexual orientation will be a huge undercurrent issue in the near future.

Click to expand...

My experience of trinitarian spirituality goes beyond arguing over whether it is true. It becomes a point of being aware of churches that dot their i's and cross their t's but are existentially hostile to God, and I can feel it.

So it might be a while before I find one that's on either side of that divide.

Saint Steven said:

Not visible?
I don't understand. ??? Please explain, thanks.

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A person who is or was a believer can be a church goer or they may have stopped going. Some may now even be an atheist or even now practicing another religion.

When a person trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life that happens in a moment of time. But when that does happen Jesus permanently seals this believer, they have crossed over from death to life.

Now they may continue in the faith and actually grow to be a great fruit bearer/ believer. But that is not guaranteed, they may fall away from the faith.

Believers do not have a mark or a glow, etc.. showing they are a believer. People just can not judge a person to see of they are a believer on how faithful they are to a church or how obedient or how much fruit they are bearing. the only way a believer can be known is if they have trusted in The Messiah and really only God knows that. So the church that Jesus is building is not really visible to the world, only visible to God.

Saint Steven said:

FIVE QUESTIONS:
1) Does your church support your personal beliefs?

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Closely enough that I don't have any "deal breakers."

Saint Steven said:

2) Have you left the church due to doctrinal, or Christian practice issues?

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No. But I have moved parishes due to refusal to support my vocation (as a woman).

Saint Steven said:

3) Do you have to keep your mouth shut about certain subjects at church?

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I have to remember that as the parish priest, my personal opinions are not always what everyone needs to hear.

Saint Steven said:

4) Are you feeling alienated by the church?

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To some degree; I will elaborate below.

Saint Steven said:

5) Do you feel guilty at church about your differences?

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No.

From my point of view, as someone active in full-time ministry, I also experience a "gap" between the institution and the laity, but probably in very different ways to most others.

Where I find the gap difficult:
- Compliance. The institution expects complete compliance to a growing and ever more complex set of legal demands. The laity neither understand nor, to a very large degree, see any importance in this, making me the meat in the sandwich between diocesan demands and lay non-compliance. This is a significant source of stress.
- Mission. The culture surrounding our church has changed, but the laity largely expect that they can keep doing things "the way we've always done them" and then are discouraged and demotivated when that doesn't work to bring new people in. Yet there is very little willingness or support to build new relationships or engage our local community in new ways, that might actually resonate with people who are not already parishioners.
- Workload. The workload of clergy has changed, and in many ways increased significantly. Yet laity often don't appreciate this and only notice and complain either about what isn't done, or about the fact that you don't do what Father X used to do back in the day (special mention here to the level of visiting Father X managed). Many clergy work too much, struggle significantly, and are at severe risk of burnout. But their congregations cannot see the invisible workload they carry and are dissatisfied with what's not happening.

That might be enough to go on with!