Are we totally depraved? Calvinism vs Our Will

FutureAndAHope said:

But what the IF shows in his statements is there is a choice that has to be made. All I can really say bout the scriptures that you mention is the bible seems to make it very clear that this choice is given to all people, not an elect group, as we see in the below scriptures. I see the election as God predestining the method by which he would save man. In the same way that Christ was predestined to die on the cross. It was all worked out before creation. He could certainly foreknow that some would be righteous (according to God's criteria), and mark them out for salvation.

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True, and rather obviously, the choice is laid out before everyone. Calvinism has no problem with that. The question there is, WHO will choose Christ?

But your cause-effect sequence demonstrates self-determination, which Calvinism specifically denies. GOD is the one to determine, and not by mere foresight. It doesn't even make sense to say God predestined something to happen by looking into the future to see what is going to happen.

FutureAndAHope said:

But what the IF shows in his statements is there is a choice that has to be made. All I can really say bout the scriptures that you mention is the bible seems to make it very clear that this choice is given to all people, not an elect group, as we see in the below scriptures. I see the election as God predestining the method by which he would save man. In the same way that Christ was predestined to die on the cross. It was all worked out before creation. He could certainly foreknow that some would be righteous (according to God's criteria), and mark them out for salvation.

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You put a lot of confidence in a dead man to do something towards God.

FutureAndAHope said:

Are you not putting a lot of faith in the idea that God is neither faithful or just? But rather, you state He gives no hope to some, forcing them to be evil so He can display wrath. You blame God for man's sins. When God is the one extending saving faith to all. How do you explain the plain as my face desire to extend salvation to all?


You have chosen to believe a doctrine based upon one or two scriptures, which can have duel meaning when that interpretation is not supported by OT understanding of repentance, nor NT scripture like those above.

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Man is by nature dead to God. He must first be made alive by the Grace and Power of Christ before he can do anything Spiritual .

FutureAndAHope said:

The Calvinist way of thinking says that man is unable to choose good, that he/she is totally depraved, and God must select them for enlightenment. THat they have no ability to reach out to God. But that is not how Paul describes it. He shows clearly that man can "will" to do good, although the power not being present.

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"The Calvinist way of thinking says that man is unable [ABILITY] to choose good, that he/she is totally depraved, and God must select [ABILITY] them for enlightenment. That they have no ability [ABILITY] to reach out to God. But that is not how Paul describes it. He shows clearly that man can "will" [DESIRE] to do good, although the power [ABILITY] not being present."

Calvinism and Paul have no disagreement, both claim man is incapable of doing good (pleasing God).
Thus, the "conflict" you propose to "solve" is all imaginary.

atpollard said:

"The Calvinist way of thinking says that man is unable [ABILITY] to choose good, that he/she is totally depraved, and God must select [ABILITY] them for enlightenment. That they have no ability [ABILITY] to reach out to God. But that is not how Paul describes it. He shows clearly that man can "will" [DESIRE] to do good, although the power [ABILITY] not being present."

Calvinism and Paul have no disagreement, both claim man is incapable of doing good (pleasing God).
Thus, the "conflict" you propose to "solve" is all imaginary.

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How can a dead man desire spiritual good ? Paul says none seek after good Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

That word seeketh means:

1. to seek out, search for
2. to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
3. to seek out for one's self, beg, crave
4. to demand back, require

Brightfame52 said:

How can a dead man desire spiritual good ? Paul says none seek after good Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

That word seeketh means:

1. to seek out, search for
2. to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
3. to seek out for one's self, beg, crave
4. to demand back, require

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A definitive answer will have to wait on God (He has the perspective to answer with complete assurance). For me, I fall back on the lessons from the Reformers about what "Total Depravity" is and what it is not. It IS NOT a claim that all men are sociopaths, biologically incapable of any good deed. It IS the claim that "every part" (mind, body, soul) of every person is tainted by sin's corruption. I like the analogy of being a warped arrow: We are all "bent" to some degree and because of our innate 'bent', we are incapable of flying true and hitting the mark [one definition for "sin" is related to the word meaning "to miss the mark"].

So to scripture and your question, Paul says in Romans both:

• Romans 7:18 [CSB] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
• Romans 3:11 [CSB] There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

So we must go back to Romans 1 to learn about the "spiritually dead" man:

• Romans 1:18-23 [CSB] For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became worthless, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles.

There is an old saying: "Those that reject the truth, do not then believe nothing; they will believe anything." So is it with dead men. The cannot do the TRUE GOOD that pleases God, but that does not prevent them from striving after their own "bent good". In the Old Testament it was describes like this: "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did whatever seemed right to him." - Judges 21:25 [CSB]

So men can desire to do good and still have no ability to actually do good ... even our desire is imperfect.

Brightfame52 said:

Man is by nature dead to God. He must first be made alive by the Grace and Power of Christ before he can do anything Spiritual .

Click to expand...

atpollard said:

"The Calvinist way of thinking says that man is unable [ABILITY] to choose good, that he/she is totally depraved, and God must select [ABILITY] them for enlightenment. That they have no ability [ABILITY] to reach out to God. But that is not how Paul describes it. He shows clearly that man can "will" [DESIRE] to do good, although the power [ABILITY] not being present."

Calvinism and Paul have no disagreement, both claim man is incapable of doing good (pleasing God).
Thus, the "conflict" you propose to "solve" is all imaginary.

Click to expand...

Brightfame52 said:

How can a dead man desire spiritual good ? Paul says none seek after good Rom 3:11

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

That word seeketh means:

1. to seek out, search for
2. to seek out, i.e. investigate, scrutinise
3. to seek out for one's self, beg, crave
4. to demand back, require

Click to expand...

atpollard said:

A definitive answer will have to wait on God (He has the perspective to answer with complete assurance). For me, I fall back on the lessons from the Reformers about what "Total Depravity" is and what it is not. It IS NOT a claim that all men are sociopaths, biologically incapable of any good deed. It IS the claim that "every part" (mind, body, soul) of every person is tainted by sin's corruption. I like the analogy of being a warped arrow: We are all "bent" to some degree and because of our innate 'bent', we are incapable of flying true and hitting the mark [one definition for "sin" is related to the word meaning "to miss the mark"].

So to scripture and your question, Paul says in Romans both:

• Romans 7:18 [CSB] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
• Romans 3:11 [CSB] There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

So we must go back to Romans 1 to learn about the "spiritually dead" man:

• Romans 1:18-23 [CSB] For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became worthless, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles.

There is an old saying: "Those that reject the truth, do not then believe nothing; they will believe anything." So is it with dead men. The cannot do the TRUE GOOD that pleases God, but that does not prevent them from striving after their own "bent good". In the Old Testament it was describes like this: "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did whatever seemed right to him." - Judges 21:25 [CSB]

So men can desire to do good and still have no ability to actually do good ... even our desire is imperfect.

Click to expand...

'Desire' or 'want' is rather a fluid word, in my opinion. Maybe that's not the right way to put it. Maybe I should say the meaning is context-dependent, but I think it's more than just that.

'Desire' in one reference is not necessarily the same as 'desire' in another. Sometimes it means 'driving need'; other times, 'lack of'; other times almost a sort of angst. The main relevant context is usually the thing desired, and everything comes to bear: Here you see "desire for good", yet we know the lost have no knowledge of the good they desire, except, perhaps, that they wish to be free of guilt, or would like to see stability in their lives, or would like their problems removed, or would even like to see themselves consistently doing what their conscience says is right, and would like to be able to judge themselves with a smile, or to be able to judge themselves as living up to a sufficient level of goodness to balance the scales. Compare that, if you would, to the desire of Christ toward his Father! That's a whole different category!

Paul shows that a person can indeed 'desire' good, and that, apparently even if lost —the debate concerning who Paul is speaking of need not be addressed here to make the point. Paul also (in Rom 1) holds a person responsible for light given him apart from the spoken Gospel, and in my opinion that includes a certain 'felt need' within man for the creator. The desire for God in the lost has little resemblence, however, to the 'desire' of the one who has drunk of the living water.

(I recall years ago the irony of Jesus' saying, "will never thirst again." My need for him at that point had grown to such enormous proportions that I could hardly describe it as anything but hunger and thirst. Yet at the same time, I knew what he had spoken of. The desire in me for him was not some vague angst, not some wishing something was different in my life. I knew he was mine, and that I was his. I needed him, but I had him, and he had me. Satisfaction, with the desire for more. Dependence.)

Eating and drinking of that source is what I need, but I don't think the lost can understand that.

atpollard said:

A definitive answer will have to wait on God (He has the perspective to answer with complete assurance). For me, I fall back on the lessons from the Reformers about what "Total Depravity" is and what it is not. It IS NOT a claim that all men are sociopaths, biologically incapable of any good deed. It IS the claim that "every part" (mind, body, soul) of every person is tainted by sin's corruption. I like the analogy of being a warped arrow: We are all "bent" to some degree and because of our innate 'bent', we are incapable of flying true and hitting the mark [one definition for "sin" is related to the word meaning "to miss the mark"].

So to scripture and your question, Paul says in Romans both:

• Romans 7:18 [CSB] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.
• Romans 3:11 [CSB] There is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.

So we must go back to Romans 1 to learn about the "spiritually dead" man:

• Romans 1:18-23 [CSB] For God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth, since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became worthless, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man, birds, four-footed animals, and reptiles.

There is an old saying: "Those that reject the truth, do not then believe nothing; they will believe anything." So is it with dead men. The cannot do the TRUE GOOD that pleases God, but that does not prevent them from striving after their own "bent good". In the Old Testament it was describes like this: "In those days there was no king in Israel; everyone did whatever seemed right to him." - Judges 21:25 [CSB]

So men can desire to do good and still have no ability to actually do good ... even our desire is imperfect.

Click to expand...

Sorry, the natural man is dead to God, and has no desire for God, not the True God.

Mark Quayle said:

'Desire' or 'want' is rather a fluid word, in my opinion. Maybe that's not the right way to put it. Maybe I should say the meaning is context-dependent, but I think it's more than just that.

'Desire' in one reference is not necessarily the same as 'desire' in another. Sometimes it means 'driving need'; other times, 'lack of'; other times almost a sort of angst. The main relevant context is usually the thing desired, and everything comes to bear: Here you see "desire for good", yet we know the lost have no knowledge of the good they desire, except, perhaps, that they wish to be free of guilt, or would like to see stability in their lives, or would like their problems removed, or would even like to see themselves consistently doing what their conscience says is right, and would like to be able to judge themselves with a smile, or to be able to judge themselves as living up to a sufficient level of goodness to balance the scales. Compare that, if you would, to the desire of Christ toward his Father! That's a whole different category!

Paul shows that a person can indeed 'desire' good, and that, apparently even if lost —the debate concerning who Paul is speaking of need not be addressed here to make the point. Paul also (in Rom 1) holds a person responsible for light given him apart from the spoken Gospel, and in my opinion that includes a certain 'felt need' within man for the creator. The desire for God in the lost has little resemblence, however, to the 'desire' of the one who has drunk of the living water.

(I recall years ago the irony of Jesus' saying, "will never thirst again." My need for him at that point had grown to such enormous proportions that I could hardly describe it as anything but hunger and thirst. Yet at the same time, I knew what he had spoken of. The desire in me for him was not some vague angst, not some wishing something was different in my life. I knew he was mine, and that I was his. I needed him, but I had him, and he had me. Satisfaction, with the desire for more. Dependence.)

Eating and drinking of that source is what I need, but I don't think the lost can understand that.

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The dead spiritually cannot desire spiritual good , no more so than the physically dead can desire physically.

Brightfame52 said:

The dead spiritually cannot desire spiritual good , no more so than the physically dead can desire physically.

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Agreed completely. They CAN however desire what they see as good, some of which may even blind those who should know better.

Just as an example of what I mean: The spiritually dead are nonetheless without excuse, per Romans 1. Even THEY should have known better.

Mark Quayle said:

Agreed completely. They CAN however desire what they see as good, some of which may even blind those who should know better.

Just as an example of what I mean: The spiritually dead are nonetheless without excuse, per Romans 1. Even THEY should have known better.

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I don't believe the dead can think or desire anything Spiritual and good!

Brightfame52 said:

Sorry, the natural man is dead to God, and has no desire for God, not the True God.

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So there are no natural men to be found in any Church in America?
And every man in a "foxhole" is a true Christian?

[The natural man will not seek God, but he may feel the "God shaped hole" in his life from time to time and know that 'something' is missing ... that is why we make idols.]

atpollard said:

So there are no natural men to be found in any Church in America?

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Lol, it's a natural question. But when natural man is in the church, supposedly seeking God, for example, he doesn't know what, or who, God is. He is not truly seeking GOD. He is most certainly not pursuing Christ. (I probably better shut up, as I will be measured by this.)

atpollard said:

And every man in a "foxhole" is a true Christian?

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Hardly. The desperation resulting of the fear of death and the realized emptiness of life doesn't mean the despairing are truly wanting God.

I think even Satan has his moments, and gnashes his teeth knowing that his hatred of God and his efforts to oppose God, only serve God's purposes. He certainly despairs even now, and fears his demise —in that sense he believes— but there is no submission, no desire for God, even if in the end he is among those forced to bow the knee and confess that Jesus is Lord.

atpollard

So there are no natural men to be found in any Church in America?

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Probably is, but what does that have to do with anything ?

Brightfame52 said:

atpollard


Probably is, but what does that have to do with anything ?

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I don't know, maybe ...

atpollard said:

[The natural man will not seek God, but he may feel the "God shaped hole" in his life from time to time and know that 'something' is missing ... that is why we make idols.]

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... which might draw him to a church: desiring a 'God' he cannot comprehend and fears to really approach honestly. "Masks up, we are heading to Church". Bringing us back to:

• Romans 7:18 [CSB] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.

atpollard said:

I don't know, maybe ...

... which might draw him to a church: desiring a 'God' he cannot comprehend and fears to really approach honestly. "Masks up, we are heading to Church". Bringing us back to:

• Romans 7:18 [CSB] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.

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Not sure why I never drew the distinction in this verse before, but I notice when he says, the desire to do what is good is WITH me, he has already said, nothing good lives IN me. I guess I should check the use of Greek prepositions here to be sure there really is a necessary difference...

atpollard said:

I don't know, maybe ...

... which might draw him to a church: desiring a 'God' he cannot comprehend and fears to really approach honestly. "Masks up, we are heading to Church". Bringing us back to:

• Romans 7:18 [CSB] For I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For the desire to do what is good is with me, but there is no ability to do it.

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Just because a person goes to a church doesnt mean they are seeking after the True God. Man by nature is a Idolater. Rom 3:11 doesn't say man isnt religious, or doesn't seek after a god, but he doesn't seek after the True God Rom 3:11. He doesnt desire the True God, now he may desire a god that is in accordance with his flesh and nature as a dead sinner.

Brightfame52 said:

Just because a person goes to a church doesnt mean they are seeking after the True God. Man by nature is a Idolater. Rom 3:11 doesn't say man isnt religious, or doesn't seek after a god, but he doesn't seek after the True God Rom 3:11. He doesnt desire the True God, now he may desire a god that is in accordance with his flesh and nature as a dead sinner.

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I agree.
I only claimed that I agree with Paul that men can desire to do good without having the ability to actually do any good. Those people in church seeking after a false god still desire to do some sort of good, they just have a corrupted vision of what good is, so even the good they desire becomes the sin they do. [or do you disagree with either Romans 7:18, or my reading of it?]