Are we totally depraved? Calvinism vs Our Will

Brightfame52

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I agree.
I only claimed that I agree with Paul that men can desire to do good without having the ability to actually do any good. Those people in church seeking after a false god still desire to do some sort of good, they just have a corrupted vision of what good is, so even the good they desire becomes the sin they do. [or do you disagree with either Romans 7:18, or my reading of it?]
Yes I disgree with you, Paul is speaking as and of a regenerate man in Rom 7:18 and he is describing the warfare the believer has with his sinful flesh, just like in Gal 5.:17

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The natural man doesn't have any option of doing good or evil, its all evil. The natural man cannot even desire to do good, his desire to do good is sin,
 
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Mark Quayle

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I agree.
I only claimed that I agree with Paul that men can desire to do good without having the ability to actually do any good. Those people in church seeking after a false god still desire to do some sort of good, they just have a corrupted vision of what good is, so even the good they desire becomes the sin they do. [or do you disagree with either Romans 7:18, or my reading of it?]

Yes I disgree with you, Paul is speaking as and of a regenerate man in Rom 7:18 and he is describing the warfare the believer has with his sinful flesh, just like in Gal 5.:17

17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

The natural man doesn't have any option of doing good or evil, its all evil. The natural man cannot even desire to do good, his desire to do good is sin,
Not sure why I never drew the distinction in this verse before, but I notice when he says, the desire to do what is good is WITH me, he has already said, nothing good lives IN me. I guess I should check the use of Greek prepositions here to be sure there really is a necessary difference...

Ha! I find it rather invigorating when two brothers with hard Calvinistic/Reformed beliefs disagree about details. Makes it hard for the strawmanning antagonist to aim his arrows!

Well, I did a small study on the text, in particular on the prepositions, of Romans 7:17 and 18. The expected Greek preposition ἐν (en) (which is in other places translated many ways, depending on context and use, as are all Greek prepositions), is here translated "in" or "inside".

The emphasis here seems to be that the "sin dwelling 'inside' me", (to which thought I will add, that in context Paul seems to be separating the sin that is inside him from himself, almost as with a disease or such) is referenced in vs 18, with the same preposition ἐν (en), when he says "in me, that is, in my flesh, there dwells no good thing", is quite a different thing from the WILL to do good, which does not sound like the relationship of the sin that is in his flesh, in the use of the preposition, παράκειταί (parakeitai), translated: "'is present with' me".

Long story short, my suspicions seem to have been right that there is a significant difference between the relationship of the sin that is IN him, and the relationship of the will that is WITH him. One might be led to think that the sin (like a disease) that is in him, came from within him, but the will to do good, came from outside himself.

I'm not going to pretend to side with one or the other view here, or to make a claim whether this distinction forwards one or the other view. I can see how it can be taken to do either one. The larger context of the chapter, and of course, the whole book, not to mention all of Scripture, must be brought to bear, and, it seems to me, will be of more significance to the question of whether Paul is talking about someone regenerated or not.

But what IS interesting to me, is that whichever view of that chapter you take (concerning just who this is, that Paul is speaking of: regenerated vs not regenerated) this distinction between sin being in him, and the will to do good being from outside himself, brings interesting implications to bear on the Reformed/Calvinistic doctrine of regeneration, affirming things commonly taught and adding definition to them, I think.
 
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atpollard

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But what IS interesting to me, is that whichever view of that chapter you take (concerning just who this is, that Paul is speaking of: regenerated vs not regenerated) this distinction between sin being in him, and the will to do good being from outside himself, brings interesting implications to bear on the Reformed/Calvinistic doctrine of regeneration, affirming things commonly taught and adding definition to them, I think.
... Why, it is almost as if the Holy Spirit had to Irresistibly Draw a man that was INCAPABLE of choosing to cooperate by his inner 'free will' (dare one suggest because of that SIN dwelling with his flesh). [John 3:19-20; Ephesians 2:4-5] ;)
 
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