Are we totally depraved? Calvinism vs Our Will

[FutureAndAHope]

The Calvinist way of thinking says that man is unable to choose good, that he/she is totally depraved, and God must select them for enlightenment. THat they have no ability to reach out to God. But that is not how Paul describes it. He shows clearly that man can "will" to do good, although the power not being present.

Rom 7:14-24 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Here we clearly see, the nature of the unregenerated man, he can "agree with/delight in the law of God", but has no ability to carry it out. It is this will that activates salvation. By desiring God, a man is pulled away from the unregenerated nature, to the empowered nature, one where the Spirit of God helps overcome dark desires.

Our choices lead to salvation or damnation, our choice to either accept or reject the hand given to us, that pulls us from sin.

John 14:20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Note again the order of John 14:20.

1. God shows us His commands and the command of faith
2. We either accept or reject it
3. If we accept it God enlightens us, comes to us, and makes His home with us
4. If we reject God's commands no enlightenment happens.
5. God desires however that all come to the truth, but not all respond

Calvinism runs contrary to this stating:

1. God gives His commands
2. Man hates and can not receive them, man has no ability to respond
3. God chooses to save a few by enabling them to have faith, regenerated they can now obey
4. God leaves the rest blind, not desiring their regeneration
5. God only desires a few saved (those he wills), and wills the rest damned

But it is not that God desired or willed man to be wicked, or come into judgment. But man did not respond in the way God desired, he responded contrary to His expectation.

Gen 6:5-8 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

 

[disciple Clint]

The Calvinist way of thinking says that man is unable to choose good, that he/she is totally depraved, and God must select them for enlightenment. THat they have no ability to reach out to God. But that is not how Paul describes it. He shows clearly that man can "will" to do good, although the power not being present.

Rom 7:14-24 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

Here we clearly see, the nature of the unregenerated man, he can "agree with/delight in the law of God", but has no ability to carry it out. It is this will that activates salvation. By desiring God, a man is pulled away from the unregenerated nature, to the empowered nature, one where the Spirit of God helps overcome dark desires.

Our choices lead to salvation or damnation, our choice to either accept or reject the hand given to us, that pulls us from sin.

John 14:20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Note again the order of John 14:20.

1. God shows us His commands and the command of faith
2. We either accept or reject it
3. If we accept it God enlightens us, comes to us, and makes His home with us
4. If we reject God's commands no enlightenment happens.
5. God desires however that all come to the truth, but not all respond

Calvinism runs contrary to this stating:

1. God gives His commands
2. Man hates and can not receive them, man has no ability to respond
3. God chooses to save a few by enabling them to have faith, regenerated they can now obey
4. God leaves the rest blind, not desiring their regeneration
5. God only desires a few saved (those he wills), and wills the rest damned

But it is not that God desired or willed man to be wicked, or come into judgment. But man did not respond in the way God desired, he responded contrary to His expectation.

Gen 6:5-8 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

totally depraved, no. Reguiring grace from God to accept our salvation, yes.

 

[d taylor]

-​

Man was only totally depraved in the sense that after Adam sinned there was nothing man could do to undo the sin Adam brought up on humankind and the world. Only God could right the sin Adam committed and give man a way back to The Holy God.

But as for a persons salvation receiving God's free gift of Eternal Life. Man can believe and receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, he (man is not totally depraved) from being able believe God's promise of Eternal Life, to all who will trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life. That is why satan is hard at work trying to counterfeit and confuse the gospel message of faith in The Messiah for Eternal Life.

God has righted the sin of Adam, Jesus took away the sin of the world. Now man is simply asked to trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

Yes!

LBC 1689 states:

Of the fall of Man, of Sin, and of the Punishment thereof. 1. Although God created Man upright, and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it,Gen. 2.16,17.and threatned death upon the breach thereof; yet he did not long abide in this honour;105Satan using the subtilty of the serpent to seduce Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who without any compulsion, did wilfully transgress the Law of their Creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit; which God was pleased according to his wise and holy Councel to permit, having purposed to order it, to his own glory. 2. Our first Parents by this Sin, fell from their 106original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them, whereby death came upon all; 107 all becoming dead in Sin, and wholly defiled, 108in all the faculties, and parts, of soul, and body. 3. They being the 109root, and by Gods appointment, standing in the room, and stead of all mankind; the guilt of the Sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now 110conceived in Sin, and by nature children 111of wrath, the servants of Sin, the subjects 112of death and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus 113set them free. 4. From this original corruption, whereby we are 114utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do 115proceed all actual transgressions. 5. The corruption of nature, during this Life, doth 116remain in those that are regenerated: and although it be through Christ pardoned, and mortified, yet both it self, and the first motions thereof, are truely and properly 117Sin. CHAP. VII.

105 Gen. 3.12,13. 2 Cor. 11 3. 106 Rom. 3.23. 107 Rom 5.12 &c. 108 Tit. 1.15 Gen. 6.5. Jer. 17 9. Rom. 3.10-19. 109 Rom. 5.12-19. 1 Cor. 15.21,22.45.49. 110 Ps. 51.5. Job 14.4. 111 Eph. 2.3. 112 Rom. 6.20. & ch. 5.12. 113 Heb. 2.14. 1 Thes. 1.10. 114 Rom. 8.7. Col. 1.21. 115 Jam. 1 14,15. Mat. 15.19. 116 Rom. 7.18.23. Eccles. 7.20. 1 Joh. 1.8. 117 Rom. 7.24.25. Gal. 5.17.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/tulip-and-reformed-theology-total-depravity

In Him,

Bill

 

[FutureAndAHope]

From this original corruption, whereby we are 114utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do 115proceed all actual transgressions.

We are not made opposite to all good. We can still do good even with a sin nature. It is this ability to do a "small good" that endears God to us.

Mat 7:11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!

We see that Paul even in his sin nature, could desire the good, could delight in it.

Rom 7:14-24 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?

We see Jesus said keeping His word results in God's choosing, and revelation. God has given us enough ability to obey that we can accept faith of our own choosing.

John 14:20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

Justin Martyr states that only those who seek to imitate Christ's nature, who "by their works show themselves worthy of this His design" will inherit life.

Justin Martyr - First Apology - Ch 1-25​

Chap. X. — How God Is to Be Served.

But we have received by tradition that God does not need the material offerings which men can give, seeing, indeed, that He Himself is the provider of all things. And we have been taught, and are convinced, and do believe, that He accepts those only who imitate the excellences which reside in Him, temperance, and justice, and philanthropy, and as many virtues as are peculiar to a God who is called by no proper name. And we have been taught that He in the beginning did of His goodness, for man’s sake, create all things out of unformed matter; and if men by their works show themselves worthy of this His design, they are deemed worthy, and so we have received — of reigning in company with Him, being delivered from corruption and suffering. For as in the beginning He created us when we were not, so do we consider that, in like manner, those who choose what is pleasing to Him are, on account of their choice, deemed worthy of incorruption and of fellowship with Him. For the coming into being at first was not in our own power; and in order that we may follow those things which please Him, choosing them by means of the rational faculties He has Himself endowed us with, He both persuades us and leads us to faith.

 

[Fervent]

Total depravity was not born from Calvin, but Augustine. It comes from a gnostic view that sees the flesh itself as evil, with Augustine even going so far as to say that at all times the Holy Spirit had to restrain Christ's flesh from sinning. Unfortunately, the inability for much of the western church to read Greek led to John Cassian's response to the Pelagian controversy(Conference 13) from being widely read, and then a group of provincialists tarred Cassian by coining "semi-Pelagianism" and connecting Cassian to a monastery that had been anathematized at the council of Oange for ascribing salvific efficacy to the waters of baptism.

 

[Mark Quayle]

The Calvinist way of thinking says that man is unable to choose good, that he/she is totally depraved, and God must select them for enlightenment. THat they have no ability to reach out to God. But that is not how Paul describes it. He shows clearly that man can "will" to do good, although the power not being present.

The Calvinist way of thinking doesn't say anything. Calvinist doctrine does, and a Calvinistic mindset results in certain accepted basic principles, which once again you have not represented fairly.

As you did before, here you again use the word, 'enlightenment', as though it had any meaning beyond the ordinary. Calvinists don't teach enlightenment, as such, concerning salvation, but regeneration! Further, God doesn't select them, as we describe by temporal statements, but has already chosen them --from the foundation of the world, in fact. Logically then, and as Romans 9 implies, he made them for that purpose. Now, 'Total Depravity' does not mean that man is incapable of doing good things, but that he is rotten to the core. If nothing else was evident as to good deeds of the totally depraved, it is seen in what all people accept as necessary --laws and government. Goodness and socially constructive behavior walk hand-in-hand. That doesn't begin to mean that when a person does what is good (socially constructive), that what they did was altogether virtuous, and certainly not that it was done in submission to God.

Here then is visible the difference between what seems your notion of faith and that of Calvinism. Your notion of faith seems to be that it is of your own making, out of the goodness of your heart, so that your efforts to good are virtuous in and of themselves. Calvinism shows that faith is the gift and product of God, not man.

But it is not that God desired or willed man to be wicked, or come into judgment. But man did not respond in the way God desired, he responded contrary to His expectation.

God was surprised??? Ha-ha, I suppose I should be allowed some room to misrepresent what you mean to be saying, since you misrepresent Calvinism.

We are not made opposite to all good. We can still do good even with a sin nature. It is this ability to do a "small good" that endears God to us.

Any valid notion of God necessarily produces a certain reaction, raising up both the inclination to good and to self-determination. There is, no doubt a certain kind of attraction to God in all of us. That is beside the point. It is not because of that, that a person can decide to submit, (and to actually accomplish true submission!). It is because God has given him new birth.

There is always this one principle that I find in Arminian thinking, that doesn't make sense to me, applied to all sorts of things they need for their notions to succeed logically. The contradiction to that principle can be stated, "As a little, so a lot", or, more accurately, "...so the whole thing."

The Arminian says that man's libertarian free will has a little absolute spontaneity. I say then, they are making man a little 'first cause', since they think man can do something without being caused to do so. If they insist that God does not cause man's choice, and that man himself chooses uncaused, then that claim of 'little amounts' is nevertheless as invalid as if they had claimed total autonomy. It runs contrary to logic. There can be only one first cause, and all other things descend logically from first cause, by causation.

Thus also, here you claim that man has a little goodness to him. What does that even mean? Where does one find virtue in himself of such integrity as to change his very nature so that it desires God more than mere wishthink or temporary regret or temporary acclamation? And, again, how does that jibe with Romans 8?

Man is more than just rotten to the core. He is full of himself, yet has no integrity or power or wisdom of a Godly nature.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The Calvinist way of thinking doesn't say anything. Calvinist doctrine does, and a Calvinistic mindset results in certain accepted basic principles, which once again you have not represented fairly.

As you did before, here you again use the word, 'enlightenment', as though it had any meaning beyond the ordinary. Calvinists don't teach enlightenment, as such, concerning salvation, but regeneration! Further, God doesn't select them, as we describe by temporal statements, but has already chosen them --from the foundation of the world, in fact. Logically then, and as Romans 9 implies, he made them for that purpose. Now, 'Total Depravity' does not mean that man is incapable of doing good things, but that he is rotten to the core. If nothing else was evident as to good deeds of the totally depraved, it is seen in what all people accept as necessary --laws and government. Goodness and socially constructive behavior walk hand-in-hand. That doesn't begin to mean that when a person does what is good (socially constructive), that what they did was altogether virtuous, and certainly not that it was done in submission to God.

Here then is visible the difference between what seems your notion of faith and that of Calvinism. Your notion of faith seems to be that it is of your own making, out of the goodness of your heart, so that your efforts to good are virtuous in and of themselves. Calvinism shows that faith is the gift and product of God, not man.

God was surprised??? Ha-ha, I suppose I should be allowed some room to misrepresent what you mean to be saying, since you misrepresent Calvinism.

Any valid notion of God necessarily produces a certain reaction, raising up both the inclination to good and to self-determination. There is, no doubt a certain kind of attraction to God in all of us. That is beside the point. It is not because of that, that a person can decide to submit, (and to actually accomplish true submission!). It is because God has given him new birth.

There is always this one principle that I find in Arminian thinking, that doesn't make sense to me, applied to all sorts of things they need for their notions to succeed logically. The contradiction to that principle can be stated, "As a little, so a lot", or, more accurately, "...so the whole thing."

The Arminian says that man's libertarian free will has a little absolute spontaneity. I say then, they are making man a little 'first cause', since they think man can do something without being caused to do so. If they insist that God does not cause man's choice, and that man himself chooses uncaused, then that claim of 'little amounts' is nevertheless as invalid as if they had claimed total autonomy. It runs contrary to logic. There can be only one first cause, and all other things descend logically from first cause, by causation.

Thus also, here you claim that man has a little goodness to him. What does that even mean? Where does one find virtue in himself of such integrity as to change his very nature so that it desires God more than mere wishthink or temporary regret or temporary acclamation? And, again, how does that jibe with Romans 8?

Man is more than just rotten to the core. He is full of himself, yet has no integrity or power or wisdom of a Godly nature.

God is certainly the first cause, but this causation is given to all, not a select few. But if you need to see how important our works are to God look at Cornelius, he could be said to be the father of the gentile faith, he was selected due to his deeds.

Act 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The issue is not so much who is the first cause, we know it is God. Even the idea that we can do works pleasing to God, does not negate the fact that God is involved in those works.

Rom 2:13-15 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

Even those without the written law, have their conscience, that part of God in us that speaks to us of morality. Our response to the concience, will either justify or condemn.

Luk 11:28-32 But He said, "More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!" And while the crowds were thickly gathered together, He began to say, "This is an evil generation. It seeks a sign, and no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah the prophet. For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation. The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation and condemn them, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here. The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here.

The gospel is we hear the word of God, be it in the conscience, or written form, and keep it. Repentance is hearing and turning to God.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Thus also, here you claim that man has a little goodness to him. What does that even mean?

Faith in Jesus is a fairly small work. Yet it saves. It means that God is not looking for little Jesuses, perfect creatures. He is looking for a response and imitation of His own love.

1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

James 2:19-26 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Mark Quayle]

God is certainly the first cause, but this causation is given to all, not a select few.

You don't see the logical self-contradiction of the notion that there can be small first-causes? And no, not even the regenerated are first causes. Do you also not see the logical self-contradiction that first-causation can be given? --If it is given, it is caused!

But if you need to see how important our works are to God look at Cornelius, he could be said to be the father of the gentile faith, he was selected due to his deeds.

Act 10:1-4 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian Regiment, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, who gave alms generously to the people, and prayed to God always. About the ninth hour of the day he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God coming in and saying to him, "Cornelius!" And when he observed him, he was afraid, and said, "What is it, lord?" So he said to him, "Your prayers and your alms have come up for a memorial before God.

Are you trying to show here that our works are important? Or are you saying they are necessarily involved in Salvation? I think you will have a hard time making me think works are more important than I already think. I'm guessing I think they are at least as important as you do. The problem is that you seem to think they earn some sort of merit toward salvation.

Judging by Ephesians 2 and Romans 8, and many other passages, I'd have to say Cornelius was already regenerated, when this event occurs.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Faith in Jesus is a fairly small work. Yet it saves. It means that God is not looking for little Jesuses, perfect creatures. He is looking for a response and imitation of His own love.

1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

James 2:19-26 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS ACCOUNTED TO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS." And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Sorry, but I don't see how that even begins to answer my question.

And yes, faith without works is dead. Does that mean, works merits towards salvation? If so, you contradict more than one scripture with that.

But what is really strange to hear from you is that small, though it be, faith is a work! If faith is a work, then according to scripture, it cannot save, because salvation is not by works!

But saving faith is the gift of God, generated by the Holy Spirit within the elect. Small though it be, or in whatever measure, it is altogether of a pure and capable derivation, and completely different from anything man can produce.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Sorry, but I don't see how that even begins to answer my question.

And yes, faith without works is dead. Does that mean, works merits towards salvation? If so, you contradict more than one scripture with that.

But what is really strange to hear from you is that small, though it be, faith is a work! If faith is a work, then according to scripture, it cannot save, because salvation is not by works!

But saving faith is the gift of God, generated by the Holy Spirit within the elect. Small though it be, or in whatever measure, it is altogether of a pure and capable derivation, and completely different from anything man can produce.

Salvation is not by works, in two ways, 1) we do not merit salvation based upon our goodness, and 2) the law can not save, so Christ was offered.

In regard to point 1) although a man of himself has no meritious deeds that can save him, he is considered righteous if a) he will have faith in Jesus, b) he will persist in seeking well-doing. Faith and true repentance leads to salvation.

Rom 2:6-11 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

Salvation is a "considering", a choice to live God's way. This choice is what makes a man righteous in God's eyes.

Eze 18:14 "If, however, he begets a son Who sees all the sins which his father has done, And considers but does not do likewise;

 

[Brightfame52]

Man by nature is dead to God. We cant do anything of any spiritually good value until we are born again of the Spirit. That includes faith, repentance or any type of evangelical obedience. There is where our total depravity lies, in being dead to God by nature. Anything man does apart from Spiritual life from the New Birth, unfortunately is nothing but dead works. Heb 6:1


Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

And Both repentance and faith spring from being born of God, they reside not in our old nature we are naturally born with.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Man by nature is dead to God. We cant do anything of any spiritually good value until we are born again of the Spirit. That includes faith, repentance or any type of evangelical obedience. There is where our total depravity lies, in being dead to God by nature. Anything man does apart from Spiritual life from the New Birth, unfortunately is nothing but dead works. Heb 6:1


Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

And Both repentance and faith spring from being born of God, they reside not in our old nature we are naturally born with.

Not sure if you have read this scripture so I will put it here. Look at the order of salvation, and the order of blinding. This passage in its context is 100% talking about receiving the Holy Spirit.

John 14:21-24 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me.

Note the order of salvation:

1) God gives His commands
2) If man keeps them, God will love the man
3) Then and only then God will manifest Himself to the man

Note the order of damnation:

1) God gives His commands
2) Man rejects them
3) They are left blind

Man is able to keep God's word to the degree that it leads to life. The primary work is "faith".

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."

All other scriptures talking about "drawing" like, need to be read in the above context.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Brightfame52]

Not sure if you have read this scripture so I will put it here. Look at the order of salvation, and the order of blinding. This passage in its context is 100% talking about receiving the Holy Spirit.



Note the order of salvation:

1) God gives His commands
2) If man keeps them, God will love the man
3) Then and only then God will manifest Himself to the man

Note the order of damnation:

1) God gives His commands
2) Man rejects them
3) They are left blind

Man is able to keep God's word to the degree that it leads to life. The primary work is "faith".



All other scriptures talking about "drawing" like, need to be read in the above context.

A dead man doesn't obey any commands until after being made supernaturally alive first. Naturally man is dead to God, needs to be resurrected first thing.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Salvation is not by works, in two ways, 1) we do not merit salvation based upon our goodness, and 2) the law can not save, so Christ was offered.

In regard to point 1) although a man of himself has no meritious deeds that can save him, he is considered righteous if a) he will have faith in Jesus, b) he will persist in seeking well-doing. Faith and true repentance leads to salvation.

Rom 2:6-11 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

Salvation is a "considering", a choice to live God's way. This choice is what makes a man righteous in God's eyes.

Eze 18:14 "If, however, he begets a son Who sees all the sins which his father has done, And considers but does not do likewise;

The obvious problem here, is that salvation is not by works in ANY way. Nothing special about your two ways, as though that's all Scripture means, in saying that salvation is not by works.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

A dead man doesn't obey any commands until after being made supernaturally alive first. Naturally man is dead to God, needs to be resurrected first thing.

Not according to scripture. Not according to Jesus. A person is enlightened to the point they can follow Jesus's words.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

The obvious problem here, is that salvation is not by works in ANY way. Nothing special about your two ways, as though that's all Scripture means, in saying that salvation is not by works.

Is that what Jesus says or what your doctrine says?

 

[Brightfame52]

Not according to scripture. Not according to Jesus. A person is enlightened to the point they can follow Jesus's words.

Being enlightened isnt being made alive, until one is made alive, he has no spiritual light. Only one who has been made alive is truly enlightened.