Something is bothering me about my Church

seeker2122 · Dec 11, 2022

I really don't want to ruffle feathers, stir up controversy, and rebuke anyone at my church lol.
That's never a pleasant thing but something tells me, today's churches are plagued with lukewarm christians
or a lukewarm christian-attitude that is making our churches suffer in silence and muddy waters.

Our dangers and challenges are not bombings, mass shootings, arson, and other physical attacks on the church.
Our dangers are people within the church living a lukewarm life with lukewarm attitude and thinking this is
OK and getting a pass by the church itself.

I say this with a grain of salt because I know that I cannot judge. I myself am not a perfect or model christian either.
But one thing I do seem to have that I find lacking in others is the "desire". I don't see or sense a great desire from
certain people who I should think would have it.

So in my church we have some "deacons". I noticed that one of the deacons doesn't even come out to church regularly.
This person comes out maybe once a month (because they say due to their job/career, they have duties/responsibilities).
That doesn't sound right. If God isn't first in your life, how the heck did you even become a deacon and get the privilege
to walk around with that title acting like you are higher than the rest of us and give prayers in services and yet do not attend
regular services or other weekly group meetings and functions. I realize they put in the hours and hours of studying, training,
reading books to pass the "exam" for becoming a deacon but when I look it now, it seems to me like that is just shallow and
superficial. I don't care if you read 100 books, and passed dozens of exams to get qualified to become a deacon or elder
in the church. If you don't live your life like a true christian should, you shouldn't be elevated to that position.

They take more pride in attending the church service when they are up at the front for prayer but the other 3 weeks they don't
show up to church and maybe show up only 3 or 4 times in the entire year for events. I'd rather they not dress up to stand before
us and give a nice pre-written prayer once a month, and instead come talk to me, pray for me, attend small group, take me out for lunch,
ask me about my life/struggles, minister to me from the bible or their own lives. Instead, all I see is this deacon come to church
once a month and that one time they come is for their turn to give a nice prayer at the front so he can dress up in his tie and suit
yet has ZERO presence in the ministry life and real lives of the members. This is bothering me a lot and I don't want to seem like
I'm jealous...maybe I am. Maybe I should apply and become a deacon myself but I don't want this to become a competition or
a, "I can do it better than you". Maybe this deacon does have a good prayer life, maybe he really loves Jesus at home and in his own
family...maybe....so I could be wrong....but even if that's true, I don't see or sense that level of love to us in the ministry on Sundays.
It honestly looks to me like he cares more about his career (which is a fun one, I won't say exactly what his job is but it's entertaining),
and he gets to work on all kinds of busy projects from many clients that requires time from him which is why he doesn't come to church
every Sunday and doesn't come out to ministry life functions/events (again, maybe just 25% of the time).

I'm getting kind of sick of this "show" where people ride behind their titles and appear like they are leaders but I ask myself, where the hell are
they in our lives? They don't exist outside of their sunday roles.

YahuahSaves · Dec 11, 2022

seeker2122 said:
I really don't want to ruffle feathers, stir up controversy, and rebuke anyone at my church lol.
That's never a pleasant thing but something tells me, today's churches are plagued with lukewarm christians
or a lukewarm christian-attitude that is making our churches suffer in silence and muddy waters.

Our dangers and challenges are not bombings, mass shootings, arson, and other physical attacks on the church.
Our dangers are people within the church living a lukewarm life with lukewarm attitude and thinking this is
OK and getting a pass by the church itself.

I say this with a grain of salt because I know that I cannot judge. I myself am not a perfect or model christian either.
But one thing I do seem to have that I find lacking in others is the "desire". I don't see or sense a great desire from
certain people who I should think would have it.

So in my church we have some "deacons". I noticed that one of the deacons doesn't even come out to church regularly.
This person comes out maybe once a month (because they say due to their job/career, they have duties/responsibilities).
That doesn't sound right. If God isn't first in your life, how the heck did you even become a deacon and get the privilege
to walk around with that title acting like you are higher than the rest of us and give prayers in services and yet do not attend
regular services or other weekly group meetings and functions. I realize they put in the hours and hours of studying, training,
reading books to pass the "exam" for becoming a deacon but when I look it now, it seems to me like that is just shallow and
superficial. I don't care if you read 100 books, and passed dozens of exams to get qualified to become a deacon or elder
in the church. If you don't live your life like a true christian should, you shouldn't be elevated to that position.

They take more pride in attending the church service when they are up at the front for prayer but the other 3 weeks they don't
show up to church and maybe show up only 3 or 4 times in the entire year for events. I'd rather they not dress up to stand before
us and give a nice pre-written prayer once a month, and instead come talk to me, pray for me, attend small group, take me out for lunch,
ask me about my life/struggles, minister to me from the bible or their own lives. Instead, all I see is this deacon come to church
once a month and that one time they come is for their turn to give a nice prayer at the front so he can dress up in his tie and suit
yet has ZERO presence in the ministry life and real lives of the members. This is bothering me a lot and I don't want to seem like
I'm jealous...maybe I am. Maybe I should apply and become a deacon myself but I don't want this to become a competition or
a, "I can do it better than you". Maybe this deacon does have a good prayer life, maybe he really loves Jesus at home and in his own
family...maybe....so I could be wrong....but even if that's true, I don't see or sense that level of love to us in the ministry on Sundays.
It honestly looks to me like he cares more about his career (which is a fun one, I won't say exactly what his job is but it's entertaining),
and he gets to work on all kinds of busy projects from many clients that requires time from him which is why he doesn't come to church
every Sunday and doesn't come out to ministry life functions/events (again, maybe just 25% of the time).

I'm getting kind of sick of this "show" where people ride behind their titles and appear like they are leaders but I ask myself, where the hell are
they in our lives? They don't exist outside of their sunday roles.

Unfortunately, this is the case for many "brick-and-mortar" churches of today. I read an article about this issue not long ago where the writer asked a question. "Is Jesus lonely in your church"? It's a valid question. It's amazing how many congregations are warming pews, asking God to answer their prayers and give their "works" his blessing, but how many are there asking what God wants? How many say to him, "not my will Lord, but yours"?

seeker2122 · Dec 11, 2022

Pipp@ said:
Unfortunately, this is the case for many "brick-and-mortar" churches of today. I read an article about this issue not long ago where the writer asked a question. "Is Jesus lonely in your church"? It's a valid question. It's amazing how many congregations are warming pews, asking God to answer their prayers and give their "works" his blessing, but how many are there asking what God wants? How many say to him, "not my will Lord, but yours"?

I'm not sure what is the best way of going about this. Do I bring my concerns up to another deacon? There are other deacons who are really amazing. By suggesting things, I fear that I may also offend or somewhat alienate myself to them or them to me. I'm basically saying in a sugar coated way, "we need to focus less on the liturgy, program, and 'order of service', the production value, and focus more on the people's actual needs, on praying, focusing more on the Spirit". I honestly feel like our church doesn't do nearly enough praying and if we do prayer, it is pre-written prayer. It feels more like a presentation to me and we are just an audience watching someone give a speech as oppose to it being a group prayer. Also, we should all read the scripture verses together and not just sit there and listen to it being read to us. I don't feel like there is enough involvement/interaction with the congregants. There is no need for anyone to even bring a bible since they never have to read from it.

YahuahSaves · Dec 11, 2022

seeker2122 said:
I'm not sure what is the best way of going about this. Do I bring my concerns up to another deacon? There are other deacons who are really amazing. By suggesting things, I fear that I may also offend or somewhat alienate myself to them or them to me. I'm basically saying in a sugar coated way, "we need to focus less on the liturgy, program, and 'order of service', the production value, and focus more on the people's actual needs, on praying, focusing more on the Spirit". I honestly feel like our church doesn't do nearly enough praying and if we do prayer, it is pre-written prayer. It feels more like a presentation to me and we are just an audience watching someone give a speech as oppose to it being a group prayer. Also, we should all read the scripture verses together and not just sit there and listen to it being read to us. I don't feel like there is enough involvement/interaction with the congregants. There is no need for anyone to even bring a bible since they never have to read from it.

Are there any other churches in your area to seek out if they might be better suited to your needs?

It may not be your experience, but since coming to Christ I've attended 2 churches (not many in my area) 1st was very worldly so I tried number 2 who were supposed to be a Christ-centred church. But after a while I noticed they weren't teaching scripture accurately, would play videos that posed as Christian, but were no different than any life coaching program in the world. And when I attended bible study (to understand it for myself) I found they were taking bible stories and applying them to themselves so I didn't learn how to read it to learn about God.

When I bought up my concerns with an elder, the hostility toward me was very quick. She was never quite the same toward me after that. You can take your chances, it might not be your experience. But people don't like being called out I've noticed, especially when it comes to God's Word.

PloverWing · Dec 11, 2022

seeker2122 said:
Maybe I should apply and become a deacon myself but I don't want this to become a competition or
a, "I can do it better than you".

Actually, this is a solution that came to my mind as I read your post. One way to strengthen your church's ministry is to become more actively involved in the ministry work yourself. You're right not to see it as a competition. Right now, this deacon is carrying a heavy burden in their personal life and can't devote as many hours to church as they'd like. You have a lighter burden in your personal life right now and have more hours to devote to church, so you could become a deacon yourself and help carry the load of your church's diaconal ministry. Bring to that job all the enthusiasm that you'd like to see in a deacon.

I'll note that people's personal-life loads change over time. When my children were young, the combination of work and parenting took lots and lots of my time, and I stepped away from church leadership roles for a decade or so. Now that my children are grown, my personal life is a little easier, and I'm now able to serve in a lay leadership role in my church. And, in turn, when I see other church families who are overwhelmed by work or family obligations, I try to be aware of the limited time resources they have, and to lift ministry burdens from their shoulders when life is too much for them.

Brad D. · Dec 11, 2022

seeker2122 said:
I really don't want to ruffle feathers, stir up controversy, and rebuke anyone at my church lol.
That's never a pleasant thing but something tells me, today's churches are plagued with lukewarm christians
or a lukewarm christian-attitude that is making our churches suffer in silence and muddy waters.

Our dangers and challenges are not bombings, mass shootings, arson, and other physical attacks on the church.
Our dangers are people within the church living a lukewarm life with lukewarm attitude and thinking this is
OK and getting a pass by the church itself.

I say this with a grain of salt because I know that I cannot judge. I myself am not a perfect or model christian either.
But one thing I do seem to have that I find lacking in others is the "desire". I don't see or sense a great desire from
certain people who I should think would have it.

So in my church we have some "deacons". I noticed that one of the deacons doesn't even come out to church regularly.
This person comes out maybe once a month (because they say due to their job/career, they have duties/responsibilities).
That doesn't sound right. If God isn't first in your life, how the heck did you even become a deacon and get the privilege
to walk around with that title acting like you are higher than the rest of us and give prayers in services and yet do not attend
regular services or other weekly group meetings and functions. I realize they put in the hours and hours of studying, training,
reading books to pass the "exam" for becoming a deacon but when I look it now, it seems to me like that is just shallow and
superficial. I don't care if you read 100 books, and passed dozens of exams to get qualified to become a deacon or elder
in the church. If you don't live your life like a true christian should, you shouldn't be elevated to that position.

They take more pride in attending the church service when they are up at the front for prayer but the other 3 weeks they don't
show up to church and maybe show up only 3 or 4 times in the entire year for events. I'd rather they not dress up to stand before
us and give a nice pre-written prayer once a month, and instead come talk to me, pray for me, attend small group, take me out for lunch,
ask me about my life/struggles, minister to me from the bible or their own lives. Instead, all I see is this deacon come to church
once a month and that one time they come is for their turn to give a nice prayer at the front so he can dress up in his tie and suit
yet has ZERO presence in the ministry life and real lives of the members. This is bothering me a lot and I don't want to seem like
I'm jealous...maybe I am. Maybe I should apply and become a deacon myself but I don't want this to become a competition or
a, "I can do it better than you". Maybe this deacon does have a good prayer life, maybe he really loves Jesus at home and in his own
family...maybe....so I could be wrong....but even if that's true, I don't see or sense that level of love to us in the ministry on Sundays.
It honestly looks to me like he cares more about his career (which is a fun one, I won't say exactly what his job is but it's entertaining),
and he gets to work on all kinds of busy projects from many clients that requires time from him which is why he doesn't come to church
every Sunday and doesn't come out to ministry life functions/events (again, maybe just 25% of the time).

I'm getting kind of sick of this "show" where people ride behind their titles and appear like they are leaders but I ask myself, where the hell are
they in our lives? They don't exist outside of their sunday roles.

I was trying to unpackage your post as I was sitting here before the Lord. It seems as if you bring out 4 areas that you believe are of possible concern. Perhaps you can help me identify what you feel the problem really is? Or Perhaps you feel they are all of the above or are connected in some way? You can always PM me too, I have dealt and worked through many of these things, and always enjoy talking to younger Christians. So if you ever need and open ear feel free. (1) A systemic problem with the state of the church as whole worldwide (2) A systemic problem only throughout the church you attend (3) You have no problem with your church over all , just a particular deacon, and perhaps how leadership "leads" over all. (4) The problem could be your own issues you need to work out with the Lord.

timewerx · Dec 11, 2022

There's more to being a Christian than just attending church and let's not pass judgement to another unless you know exactly what is going on with their lives. You really can't truly understand someone unless you literally lived the kind of life they lived and all other issues they had to deal with including issues related to health, both physical and mental, and past traumas.

Trusting in Him · Dec 11, 2022

Individual spiritual growth as a Christian is an important driving force in the life of a truely commited Cristian. If you are not getting to grow in your present church environment, then you will not be satisfied until this problem can be addressed. You are not alone in facing such difficulties. Some of us cope with this better than others, but ultimately your walk with the Lord is between you and the Lord. I never really thrived in my first church, I did not blame anyone, but I decided to do something about it myself. Over a period of years, I studied the bible by myself and read quite a lot of older Christian books. Most modern Christian books don't much interest me at all. If an authors life lacks reality, I don't wish to be like that. These days, I am a member of a relatively small non conformist church, as far as I'm aware none of us have any so called theological traning. Our personal beliefs and faiths determine how each of us live and we are very real about how we live for God. It's not everyones, sort of thing, we are very serious about God and those who don't want the same level of commitment don't always stay long.

About a quarter of our church membership have responded to God calling them too the mission field. Like I said we are very serious about following God's calling upon our lives. The church does not have a heavy handed leadership, but there are many mature Christians in our church and just about all of us know our bibles extremely well. If you want to make progress in your relationship with God, nobody can do it for you. Some locations are difficult places for Christian to find really solid churches and really solid churches can be really difficult to find, but God is a personal God who will be with you and will be the one who will cause you to grow in your walk with Him if you seek Him with all of your heart. Christians can be quite lonely in churches which seem to be going nowhere, but those who are walking with God usually fnd themselves becoming connected with others who are like minded and are also going on with God. Those who are content to be just Christian in name only are not going to be helpful to you in terms of fellowship. If you can be strong for God, He will make you stronger and more sure of who you are in Him.

Churches with too much liberal thological teaching do not usually make for strong Christians, who know that they are standing on solid ground and are not easily stubled. If there are not any sound churches in your area then your may need to choose the best of an otherwise not ideal bunch, and just make sure that you study the bible and seek the Lord for youself. Sometimes, walking with the Lord requires real determination to go on with Him, but He will reward you for your commitment and diligence.

seeker2122 · Dec 12, 2022

Pipp@ said:
Are there any other churches in your area to seek out if they might be better suited to your needs?

It may not be your experience, but since coming to Christ I've attended 2 churches (not many in my area) 1st was very worldly so I tried number 2 who were supposed to be a Christ-centred church. But after a while I noticed they weren't teaching scripture accurately, would play videos that posed as Christian, but were no different than any life coaching program in the world. And when I attended bible study (to understand it for myself) I found they were taking bible stories and applying them to themselves so I didn't learn how to read it to learn about God.

When I bought up my concerns with an elder, the hostility toward me was very quick. She was never quite the same toward me after that. You can take your chances, it might not be your experience. But people don't like being called out I've noticed, especially when it comes to God's Word.

So true. In fact, that might be a great litmus test to see how the "true believers" in this church react and respond to my rebuking and correcting. I once heard that John MacArthur say he thinks persecution of Christians/Church in this world is actually a good thing because it will PURIFY the church. The fake ones will be driven out and only the true believers will stay, because nobody is willing to die for something they don't really believe in. So persecution is a good thing as it purifies the Church.

In the same light, I guess maybe confronting my leaders and bringing these issues to the front will make things a little confrontational but at least I'll know if they are truly interested in following Jesus or just interested in playing church and holding their power/position/titles over us. The fact that I'm somewhat of a new member and the others are seniority over me, they probably might have a little pride and feel like why a new member thinks he knows better for our church than we ourselves do? I can see how anyone who has been there longer and has a sense of entitlement can feel a little offended by a newcomer telling them what they think they should change or improve on. It's almost like stepping on people's toes who have been here much longer than me and an insult because I am just new and what right do I have to come in and tell them to change things as a newcomer.

seeker2122 · Dec 12, 2022

PloverWing said:
Actually, this is a solution that came to my mind as I read your post. One way to strengthen your church's ministry is to become more actively involved in the ministry work yourself. You're right not to see it as a competition. Right now, this deacon is carrying a heavy burden in their personal life and can't devote as many hours to church as they'd like. You have a lighter burden in your personal life right now and have more hours to devote to church, so you could become a deacon yourself and help carry the load of your church's diaconal ministry. Bring to that job all the enthusiasm that you'd like to see in a deacon.

I'll note that people's personal-life loads change over time. When my children were young, the combination of work and parenting took lots and lots of my time, and I stepped away from church leadership roles for a decade or so. Now that my children are grown, my personal life is a little easier, and I'm now able to serve in a lay leadership role in my church. And, in turn, when I see other church families who are overwhelmed by work or family obligations, I try to be aware of the limited time resources they have, and to lift ministry burdens from their shoulders when life is too much for them.

Thank you. This is an excellent observation and point. In fact, that was going to be my next question in another thread about christians in different stages/context in life. As singles, we have more time, more resources, more energy to be able to put into ministry and be present and enthusiastic and "give more" so I think from our perspective, we might look at the married couples differently like why aren't they committed to the church as much as me? But vice versa, the married couples might be thinking, as much as I love the church and commit to the membership of the church life, I don't want to meet up with everyone every friday evening or saturday because I have a spouse and kids and family life of my own to take care of and do things together with. We need to spend our own family time together and we're not just going to show up to all the singles events because you guys have all the time to do that stuff and we don't.

So married couples would say to us, "why don't you get busy getting married and raise a family for God? Instead of just having fun and doing all your singles events, outings, hang outs, fellowship, etc. And singles would look at married couples and say, "why don't you guys show up to more of our church life events? I know you got your OWN family to enjoy your life with, but if you are part of this church and are leaders, you should be coming out regularly to events, functions, services etc. It seems like you guys only focus on your family first and God's ministry comes second."

These are two sides of the coin and both sides are actually right lol. It all depends on which side of the coin you are at in life. I can admit right now that if I was married and had 2 or 3 kids, I would NOT want to come out to all the church events because I don't have the time and energy to give like the singles do, and I'd want to spend more of my fridays or saturdays with my own kids and wife going out and doing family stuff together. But as a single right now, I say the opposite, and question why these married couples with families don't spend time with us as a church but only put their own family above God and his ministry.

seeker2122 · Dec 12, 2022

Brad D. said:
I was trying to unpackage your post as I was sitting here before the Lord. It seems as if you bring out 4 areas that you believe are of possible concern. Perhaps you can help me identify what you feel the problem really is? Or Perhaps you feel they are all of the above or are connected in some way? You can always PM me too, I have dealt and worked through many of these things, and always enjoy talking to younger Christians. So if you ever need and open ear feel free. (1) A systemic problem with the state of the church as whole worldwide (2) A systemic problem only throughout the church you attend (3) You have no problem with your church over all , just a particular deacon, and perhaps how leadership "leads" over all. (4) The problem could be your own issues you need to work out with the Lord.

Thank you Brad! I appreciate your kindness to reach out to me. Your listed those 4 points so well! I would like to take the time to answer them.

1) I think this is true and exists but currently I'm not really focused on that right now. Yes my issue is more local (my own church).
2) Yes, this is closer. The church I attend has sort of a system or program that it runs as the "framework" or "scaffolding" of how the church exists, operates, and lives itself out as a church. I definitely understand the need to have programs, membership programs, a sort of step by step approach to bringing in new members, turning them into members, then developing/discipling them into core members and eventually to leadership roles if they choose to proceed further. The only problem I have with this "structured system" is that it doesn't allow for Holy Spirit to move when HS wants to move. We operate under the human/man-made systems first and HS second but this is never right in my opinion. HS must be the first order. If the HS moves us to do something different today, then we must follow and obey. But since there are protocols/systems in place, we don't have the freedom and flexibility to just abandon our pre-planned schedules of programs to do what the HS wants us to do. It takes a long time. So when I first came to this church, I was already convicted by the HS within the first 2 or 3 visits that this church was seriously lacking intimacy with one another. They are not actually very good at welcoming new members (most churches aren't for that matter) and as a new member myself, I found that I took more interest in welcoming new members each week even though I was only there for a couple weeks lol. It was kinda funny. But I didn't dislike the church at all. I had love for them. The HS was convicting me that this church has NEEDS as they are small and young church. I came in not as new believer but with quite a lot of experience and right away I wanted to help. I wanted to contribute. I wanted to pray. I wanted to get to know the members and start spending quality time with them and praying together but I was gently reminded by one of the good deacons (one that I really like) that I should slow down and know that there is a timing to all this and in due time, God will do his Will. I was just too enthusiastic, too haste in my passion that being a new member, me talking to everyone asking them to spend time with me and get to know each other was startling and maybe uncomfortable for members. So I have to do these step by step programs in order to get "in" more and then be able to serve, and influence more of the core values and orders of this church.

3) This is pretty spot on. I love this church and want to love them more and more. The problem is, I am on a somewhat different stage than others. I am single, have a lot of time on my hands, and want to go to church all the time, I want them to make more events, more prayer meetings, more house gatherings, more fellowship events on fridays or saturdays, even have a retreat or camp overnighter or 2 days etc....but this is easy for me since I have a lot of time and I'm single. But others have full-time jobs, families, and they probably don't need or want to have more gathering time lol. Maybe they are content with just being sunday christians. Maybe they don't feel a great urge or need to grow closer as a family in Christ but keep a comfortable distance so that nobody is intruding on their time and space. So this ties into the 4th option you said.

4) Yes, it's also due to my own personal spiritual situation. I need a church. I need a family. I need to be supported and to support. I need to be involved to give my own life some meaning and purpose so that I can use whatever gifts God gave me. I've lived too long alone and independent and I don't want to keep doing this. I want to find myself embedded in an intimate Christ-centered church and family of believers where we meet often, break bread, pray, talk, spend quality time, and listen to the HS to know what he wants us to do. So my needs are great. This slower place of a systemized church order is stunting my enthusiasm and slowing down what I thought I was on fire for. I feel that I am cooling off now and feeling more discouragement than the fire because I've had to let go of my notions of quickening the pace and get the ball rolling here at this church. It's frustrating. I want to tell them so many things, we need more prayer time, we need less pre-written prayers, we need more involvement of everyone in the congregation and not just the deacons who get the special privilege of praying or reading scripture. There is no requirement in God's church for someone to be able to pray or read the scriptures. Why is it some deacon guy who doesn't even come to church regularly and has ZERO impact in the life of our church get to dress up in a tie and suit for his 5 minutes of fame once a week to deliver a beautifully written prayer? I want to go up there and pray from my heart, pray from the SPIRIT and the WORD about what this church needs to hear, but it seems like I'll have to wait about 1 year to pass all these programs and then apply to be a deacon and study more and pass tests and after all that I might be able to give a prayer in service in 2024-2025? I find this absolutely appalling that prayer is exclusive and put away with lock and key and only those who are eligible are allowed to go up to the front and pray for your brothers and sisters.

As a teen, in my 20s I always prayed in large and small groups, services, etc (in my old church where I grew up). I find it odd that we cannot pray just because I'm a new member here.

dzheremi · Dec 12, 2022

Hi seeker2122. I don't want to seem nosy, but some parts of your posts in this thread make me wonder what kind of church you attend wherein you have deacons who don't show up, and have trouble with married people and all this. I think I understand your point about being a single person surrounded by marrieds (I'm in the same boat, though that's because I converted to Orthodoxy as a single adult, and Coptic people tend to get married younger and marry within their own ethnicity, so I'm an outlier in a few ways as a non-Egyptian who was single at 30 when I was baptized), but I also think that there is a very active role for all laity in my own Church (as well as for readers, deacons, etc., obviously), such that I probably wouldn't notice a lagging deacon except out of concern. Have you perhaps tried reaching out to this man in a spirit of agape love to see if there is some way you might support him, or is that something that is not done within your church's culture? Just curious.

YahuahSaves · Dec 12, 2022

seeker2122 said:
So true. In fact, that might be a great litmus test to see how the "true believers" in this church react and respond to my rebuking and correcting. I once heard that John MacArthur say he thinks persecution of Christians/Church in this world is actually a good thing because it will PURIFY the church. The fake ones will be driven out and only the true believers will stay, because nobody is willing to die for something they don't really believe in. So persecution is a good thing as it purifies the Church.

In the same light, I guess maybe confronting my leaders and bringing these issues to the front will make things a little confrontational but at least I'll know if they are truly interested in following Jesus or just interested in playing church and holding their power/position/titles over us. The fact that I'm somewhat of a new member and the others are seniority over me, they probably might have a little pride and feel like why a new member thinks he knows better for our church than we ourselves do? I can see how anyone who has been there longer and has a sense of entitlement can feel a little offended by a newcomer telling them what they think they should change or improve on. It's almost like stepping on people's toes who have been here much longer than me and an insult because I am just new and what right do I have to come in and tell them to change things as a newcomer.

We are to correct our brothers and sisters in Christ, not persecute them. But I understand what you're saying. Whatever is said though, can be done tactfully... I was a newcomer as well but felt the need to mention my concerns because I'm just a naturally honest and forthright person I don't believe in being fake or going along with the status-quo. And we shouldn't either, if we're serious about following Christ. I would suggest take the person/s aside that you have an issue with to discuss your concerns privately and see how they react. If there's any kind of arrogance or hostility in response to your genuine concerns, it's safe to say it's not the right church.

bèlla · Dec 12, 2022

Trusting in Him said:
Some locations are difficult places for Christian to find really solid churches and really solid churches can be really difficult to find, but God is a personal God who will be with you and will be the one who will cause you to grow in your walk with Him if you seek Him with all of your heart.

I’m surrounded by churches and the majority accept or engage in practices that aren’t biblical. I couldn’t compromise and nurtured my relationship with Yahweh during that period. My perseverance was rewarded and I found kindred spirits who shared my beliefs. They’ve opened the word in ways I never experienced and our hunger is edifying. The knowledge and encouragement deepens my walk and I delight in the teachings. I’m being fed; truly fed and that’s the difference.

~bella

lismore · Dec 12, 2022

seeker2122 said:
So in my church we have some "deacons". I noticed that one of the deacons doesn't even come out to church regularly.

Sometimes Deacons do a lot of tasks behind the scenes, tasks that aren't seen so much. There are a lot of needs that aren't seen in a Sunday service, pastoral care for the house bound or financial/legal/ administrative work for example. It's possible for a serving Deacon to put in the equivalent of full time hours working for the church. God Bless

Brad D. · Dec 13, 2022

seeker2122 said:
Thank you Brad! I appreciate your kindness to reach out to me. Your listed those 4 points so well! I would like to take the time to answer them.

1) I think this is true and exists but currently I'm not really focused on that right now. Yes my issue is more local (my own church).
2) Yes, this is closer. The church I attend has sort of a system or program that it runs as the "framework" or "scaffolding" of how the church exists, operates, and lives itself out as a church. I definitely understand the need to have programs, membership programs, a sort of step by step approach to bringing in new members, turning them into members, then developing/discipling them into core members and eventually to leadership roles if they choose to proceed further. The only problem I have with this "structured system" is that it doesn't allow for Holy Spirit to move when HS wants to move. We operate under the human/man-made systems first and HS second but this is never right in my opinion. HS must be the first order. If the HS moves us to do something different today, then we must follow and obey. But since there are protocols/systems in place, we don't have the freedom and flexibility to just abandon our pre-planned schedules of programs to do what the HS wants us to do. It takes a long time. So when I first came to this church, I was already convicted by the HS within the first 2 or 3 visits that this church was seriously lacking intimacy with one another. They are not actually very good at welcoming new members (most churches aren't for that matter) and as a new member myself, I found that I took more interest in welcoming new members each week even though I was only there for a couple weeks lol. It was kinda funny. But I didn't dislike the church at all. I had love for them. The HS was convicting me that this church has NEEDS as they are small and young church. I came in not as new believer but with quite a lot of experience and right away I wanted to help. I wanted to contribute. I wanted to pray. I wanted to get to know the members and start spending quality time with them and praying together but I was gently reminded by one of the good deacons (one that I really like) that I should slow down and know that there is a timing to all this and in due time, God will do his Will. I was just too enthusiastic, too haste in my passion that being a new member, me talking to everyone asking them to spend time with me and get to know each other was startling and maybe uncomfortable for members. So I have to do these step by step programs in order to get "in" more and then be able to serve, and influence more of the core values and orders of this church.

3) This is pretty spot on. I love this church and want to love them more and more. The problem is, I am on a somewhat different stage than others. I am single, have a lot of time on my hands, and want to go to church all the time, I want them to make more events, more prayer meetings, more house gatherings, more fellowship events on fridays or saturdays, even have a retreat or camp overnighter or 2 days etc....but this is easy for me since I have a lot of time and I'm single. But others have full-time jobs, families, and they probably don't need or want to have more gathering time lol. Maybe they are content with just being sunday christians. Maybe they don't feel a great urge or need to grow closer as a family in Christ but keep a comfortable distance so that nobody is intruding on their time and space. So this ties into the 4th option you said.

4) Yes, it's also due to my own personal spiritual situation. I need a church. I need a family. I need to be supported and to support. I need to be involved to give my own life some meaning and purpose so that I can use whatever gifts God gave me. I've lived too long alone and independent and I don't want to keep doing this. I want to find myself embedded in an intimate Christ-centered church and family of believers where we meet often, break bread, pray, talk, spend quality time, and listen to the HS to know what he wants us to do. So my needs are great. This slower place of a systemized church order is stunting my enthusiasm and slowing down what I thought I was on fire for. I feel that I am cooling off now and feeling more discouragement than the fire because I've had to let go of my notions of quickening the pace and get the ball rolling here at this church. It's frustrating. I want to tell them so many things, we need more prayer time, we need less pre-written prayers, we need more involvement of everyone in the congregation and not just the deacons who get the special privilege of praying or reading scripture. There is no requirement in God's church for someone to be able to pray or read the scriptures. Why is it some deacon guy who doesn't even come to church regularly and has ZERO impact in the life of our church get to dress up in a tie and suit for his 5 minutes of fame once a week to deliver a beautifully written prayer? I want to go up there and pray from my heart, pray from the SPIRIT and the WORD about what this church needs to hear, but it seems like I'll have to wait about 1 year to pass all these programs and then apply to be a deacon and study more and pass tests and after all that I might be able to give a prayer in service in 2024-2025? I find this absolutely appalling that prayer is exclusive and put away with lock and key and only those who are eligible are allowed to go up to the front and pray for your brothers and sisters.

As a teen, in my 20s I always prayed in large and small groups, services, etc (in my old church where I grew up). I find it odd that we cannot pray just because I'm a new member here.

As Painful and bewildering as the processes the Lord takes us through are, they all have their purpose and place in our life, for that time, that season.

It seems to me the crux of the problem you face is love. There is something new that has happened in your life with the Lord. Perhaps you have met Him in a different way. It has filled you with Love for Him, and you were hoping to find a place to meet that same love and passion and to give it back to others in return. Instead you have come into a world where it seems there is no outlet for that love. You have met an organization instead of a living body with that same love, And that organization has checks and balances that you feel bottles your own love up and makes it very difficult to pour it out to others in return.

To me it is a sign of the times, rather than a localized problem. But for you, the Lord is making you focus on the local issue at hand, and I agree until He shows you otherwise that is where your present commitment should remain. I am sure if you stay the course, endure the frustration, and subject yourself to the discipline of His guiding hand through the process it will be well. If the truth be known, I think He is desiring to mature you in your own growth in Him, working in you a deeper more mature love, while at the same time, opening your eyes, giving you a deeper revelation of Himself, the day in which we live, and the way forward for you personally. As it often is with the Lord, there is usually much more He is doing, than just the couple of things we may be focused on in the moment. Usually we come through things, and we realize He has taken it far beyond what we originally thought.

What you are going through is real. The experience is real. What you are seeing and the understanding you are coming to is real. But only He can work in you what is needed. Only He can open your eyes to see. Be willing to go through the cross for yourself, that you may see what is needed for others, and see better what is needed for yourself. If you do that He will lead you by Spirit, and it will be the right way through, better for all. I will pray then He opens your eyes and deepens your love.

ozso · Dec 13, 2022

I remember this being a problem going back to the 70s. There are Bible churches where the pastor is interested in building better servants of Christ. And that's what the congregation wants.

And then there are churches that are more like social clubs, and the pastor gives a short message of warm fuzzy fluff. The rest of the time is spent socializing while eating doughnuts.

If I found myself in a "seeker friendly" social club church, I wouldn't return after the first visit, because that's not what I'm looking for.

seeker2122 · Dec 13, 2022

Brad D. said:
As Painful and bewildering as the processes the Lord takes us through are, they all have their purpose and place in our life, for that time, that season.

It seems to me the crux of the problem you face is love. There is something new that has happened in your life with the Lord. Perhaps you have met Him in a different way. It has filled you with Love for Him, and you were hoping to find a place to meet that same love and passion and to give it back to others in return. Instead you have come into a world where it seems there is no outlet for that love. You have met an organization instead of a living body with that same love, And that organization has checks and balances that you feel bottles your own love up and makes it very difficult to pour it out to others in return.

To me it is a sign of the times, rather than a localized problem. But for you, the Lord is making you focus on the local issue at hand, and I agree until He shows you otherwise that is where your present commitment should remain. I am sure if you stay the course, endure the frustration, and subject yourself to the discipline of His guiding hand through the process it will be well. If the truth be known, I think He is desiring to mature you in your own growth in Him, working in you a deeper more mature love, while at the same time, opening your eyes, giving you a deeper revelation of Himself, the day in which we live, and the way forward for you personally. As it often is with the Lord, there is usually much more He is doing, than just the couple of things we may be focused on in the moment. Usually we come through things, and we realize He has taken it far beyond what we originally thought.

What you are going through is real. The experience is real. What you are seeing and the understanding you are coming to is real. But only He can work in you what is needed. Only He can open your eyes to see. Be willing to go through the cross for yourself, that you may see what is needed for others, and see better what is needed for yourself. If you do that He will lead you by Spirit, and it will be the right way through, better for all. I will pray then He opens your eyes and deepens your love.

Thank you Brad for the encouragement.

Brad D. · Dec 13, 2022

seeker2122 said:
Thank you Brad for the encouragement.

I did want to add that I do not feel the problems you are facing there are going to go away. And more than likely you are not there to change them. As you said you see issues in your own life that you recognize need to be worked out, and as you stated you are simply an outsider looking in. So I don't think this is the time and the place in your life for that. But you discern something there that I am sure is real in what you describe. I know you don't want to look at the larger implications of this at the time, but keep in mind one day that may be what you have to face. Perhaps the Lord is preparing you now to face it?

Yet it seems He has given you as you describe it love for this place, and what I hear in you is a sense you must stay there for a time. I always try to encourage people, above all listen to the Lord. As I said, if He is asking you to stay He has His reasons, and if you walk through it in the Spirit in obedience you will see so much better on the other side. Obedience is always the door to more light and more growth.

But I will pray for you that you will know if you come to a point it is enough, and the Lord desires you to move on. Perhaps there is a smaller more intimate group of believers you can become involved in like @Trusting in Him and @bèlla described. It seems as if you had that earlier in your life.. At the end of the day I don't think it is a matter of being single or married, although others pointed out legitimate differences. But I think what you are sensing goes much deeper than that. I will pray you pass the fiery test, continuing to love Him, even when it seems everything around you has dried up. Though the fig tree does not bud and no fruit is on the vines, and though the olive crop fails and the fields produce no food, though the sheep are cut off from the fold and no cattle are in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the Lord; I will take joy in the God of my salvation (Habakkuk 3:17-18}

seeker2122 · Dec 14, 2022

Brad D. said:
I did want to add that I do not feel the problems you are facing there are going to go away. And more than likely you are not there to change them. As you said you see issues in your own life that you recognize need to be worked out, and as you stated you are simply an outsider looking in. So I don't think this is the time and the place in your life for that. But you discern something there that I am sure is real in what you describe. I know you don't want to look at the larger implications of this at the time, but keep in mind one day that may be what you have to face. Perhaps the Lord is preparing you now to face it?

Yet it seems He has given you as you describe it love for this place, and what I hear in you is a sense you must stay there for a time. I always try to encourage people, above all listen to the Lord. As I said, if He is asking you to stay He has His reasons, and if you walk through it in the Spirit in obedience you will see so much better on the other side. Obedience is always the door to more light and more growth.

But I will pray for you that you will know if you come to a point it is enough, and the Lord desires you to move on. Perhaps there is a smaller more intimate group of believers you can become involved in like @Trusting in Him and @bèlla described. It seems as if you had that earlier in your life.. At the end of the day I don't think it is a matter of being single or married, although others pointed out legitimate differences. But I think what you are sensing goes much deeper than that. I will pray you pass the fiery test, continuing to love Him, even when it seems everything around you has dried up. Though the fig tree does not bud and no fruit is on the vines, and though the olive crop fails and the fields produce no food, though the sheep are cut off from the fold and no cattle are in the stalls, yet I will rejoice in the Lord; I will take joy in the God of my salvation (Habakkuk 3:17-18}

Thanks again. I actually feel like this is my last chance. If this doesn't work out for me. I think I'm a lost cause and I won't be able to recover from this. That's why I'm hoping things will really work out. I need to give it ample time before I decide to do something drastically different.
I love that Bible verse, thanks for pointing that one out. I never heard of that before and I will take a look at it some more!

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