Does עולם/olam mean eternal or not?

Der Alte · Dec 4, 2022

Some members @ CF claim that עולם/olam never means eternal. In response , I reviewed every occurrence of olam in the OT. I found 47 forty-seven vss. which define/describe olam as eternal/everlasting by juxtaposition with adjectives or descriptive phrases. Here are 10 of the 47 verses.

[1] Ecclesiastes 3:14
(14) I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: [עולם] nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
[2]Psalms 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth justice, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever; [עולם] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
[3]Psalms 45:17
(17) (45:18) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations; therefore shall the peoples praise thee for ever and ever. [לעלם ועד]
[4]Isaiah 51:6
(6) Lift up your eyes to the heavens, and look upon the earth beneath; for the heavens shall vanish away like smoke, and the earth shall wax old like a garment, and they that dwell therein shall die in like manner; but My salvation shall be forever, [עולם] and My favour shall not be abolished.
[5]Isaiah 55:13
(13) Instead of the thorn shall come up the cypress, and instead of the brier shall come up the myrtle; and it shall be to the LORD for a memorial, for an everlasting [עולם] sign that shall not be cut off.
[6]Isaiah 56:5
(5) Even unto them will I give in My house and within My walls a monument and a memorial better than sons and daughters; I will give them an everlasting [עולם] memorial, that shall not be cut off.
[7]Jeremiah 23:40
(40) and I will bring an everlasting [עולם] reproach upon you, and a perpetual [עולם] shame, which shall not be forgotten.
[8]Jeremiah 31:40
(40) And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. [עולם]
[9]Jeremiah 50:5
(5) They shall inquire concerning Zion with their faces hitherward: 'Come ye, and join yourselves to the LORD in an everlasting [עולם] covenant that shall not be forgotten.'
[10]Jeremiah 51:39
(39) With their poison I will prepare their feast, and I will make them drunken, that they may be convulsed, and sleep a perpetual [עולם] sleep, and not wake, saith the LORD.

Jonaitis · Dec 4, 2022

I do not think the Hebrew language had conceptualize our exact idea of "eternal," that is, without duration. When examining "olam," I found that it is often employed in the use of covenant ordinances and statues for the nation of Israel that are no longer in effect today. The Levitical priesthood, for example, would be properly interpreted as ever-enduring or successive in verses like Exodus 40:15. It seems more to embody the idea of continually lasting rather than endless.

Der Alte · Dec 4, 2022

Jonaitis said:
I do not think the Hebrew language had conceptualize our exact idea of "eternal," that is, without duration. When examining "olam," I found that it is often employed in the use of covenant ordinances and statues for the nation of Israel that are no longer in effect today. The Levitical priesthood, for example, would be properly interpreted as ever-enduring or successive in verses like Exodus 40:15. It seems more to embody the idea of continually lasting rather than endless.

Thank you for totally ignoring my post. Earlier today I reviewed every occurrence of "olam" in the O.T. and found 48 verses where "olam" is described/defined as eternal by juxtaposition with other adjectives and descriptive phrases. I quoted ten of those 47 vss. in this thread. See e.g. Psalms 37:28

Psalms 37:28

(28) For the LORD loveth justice, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever; [עולם] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

In this vs. "preserved 'olam'" is juxtaposed with "the wicked shall be cut off." The wicked are cut off the faithful are not cut-off.<period>
List of 48 vss. which define/describe "olam" as eternal/everlasting.
Ecclesiastes 3:14, Psalms 37:28, Psalms 45:17, Isaiah 55:13, Isaiah 56:5, Jeremiah 23:40, Jeremiah 31:40, Jeremiah 50:5, Jeremiah 51:39, Jeremiah 51:57, Ezekiel 26:21, Ezekiel 27:36, Ecclesiastes 9:6, 1 Kings 9:3, 1 Chronicles 16:36, 1 Chronicles 29:10, Psalms 10:16, Psalms 21:4, Psalms 33:11, Psalms 41:13, Psalms 45:6, Psalms 48:14, Psalms 90:2, Psalms 100:5, Psalms 102:12, Psalms 106:31, Psalms 106:48, Psalms 111:8, Psalms 119:44, Psalms 121:8, Psalms 135:13, Psalms 145:1, Psalms 145:2, Psalms 145:13, Psalms 145:21, Psalms 146:10, Proverbs 8:23, Isaiah 9:7, Isaiah 30:8, Isaiah 34:10, Isaiah 45:17, Isaiah 51:8, Jeremiah 7:7, Jeremiah 25:5, Lamentations 5:19,

Jonaitis · Dec 4, 2022

Der Alte said:
Thank you for totally ignoring my post. Earlier today I reviewed every occurrence of "olam" in the O.T. and found 47 verses where "olam" is described/defined as eternal by juxtaposition with other adjectives and descriptive phrases. I quoted ten of those 47 vss. in this thread. See e.g. Psalms 37:28

Psalms 37:28
(28) For the LORD loveth justice, and forsaketh not His saints; they are preserved for ever; [עולם] but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.

In this vs. "preserved 'olam'" is juxtaposed with "the wicked shall be cut off." The wicked are cut off the faithful are not cut-off.<period>

I don't see how I ignored it, but I see that you ignored mine.

Fervent · Dec 4, 2022

Jonaitis said:
I do not think the Hebrew language had conceptualize our exact idea of "eternal," that is, without duration. When examining "olam," I found that it is often employed in the use of covenant ordinances and statues for the nation of Israel that are no longer in effect today. The Levitical priesthood, for example, would be properly interpreted as ever-enduring or successive in verses like Exodus 40:15. It seems more to embody the idea of continually lasting rather than endless.

This has been my understanding as well, with as concrete as the Hebrew language is a thoroughly abstract concept like "eternal" is somewhat outside of its ability to convey so olam is more "perpetual" than "eternal," though with the later development of concepts like eternity there remain several instances where it can be understood to have been intended even if the concept itself did not exist when it was written.

Jonaitis · Dec 4, 2022

Fervent said:
This has been my understanding as well, with as concrete as the Hebrew language is a thoroughly abstract concept like "eternal" is somewhat outside of its ability to convey so olam is more "perpetual" than "eternal," though with the later development of concepts like eternity there remain several instances where it can be understood to have been intended even if the concept itself did not exist when it was written.

I feel that those intended instances are still reading between the lines. If concepts like 'eternity' were being developed later, and these "instances" were better explained simultaneously, then it stands that we are the ones putting a new spin on its original meaning.

TrevorL · Dec 5, 2022

Greetings Der Alte and Jonaitis,

Der Alte said:
Some members @ CF claim that עולם/olam never means eternal. In response , I reviewed every occurrence of olam in the OT. I found 47 forty-seven vss. which define/describe olam as eternal/everlasting by juxtaposition with adjectives or descriptive phrases.

My Enhanced Strong's gives the translation as eternal in some instances, but in other perpetual seems to be a better rendition:

5769 עֹולָם [ʿowlam, ʿolam /o·lawm/] n m. From 5956; TWOT 1631a; GK 6409; 439 occurrences; AV translates as “ever” 272 times, “everlasting” 63 times, “old” 22 times, “perpetual” 22 times, “evermore” 15 times, “never” 13 times, “time” six times, “ancient” five times, “world” four times, “always” three times, “alway” twice, “long” twice, “more” twice, “never + 408” twice, and translated miscellaneously six times. 1 long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world. 1A ancient time, long time (of past). 1B (of future). 1B1 for ever, always. 1B2 continuous existence, perpetual. 1B3 everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity.

Jonaitis said:
The Levitical priesthood, for example, would be properly interpreted as ever-enduring or successive in verses like Exodus 40:15. It seems more to embody the idea of continually lasting rather than endless.

Another similar example of perpetual or continually lasting is the servant who at the end of his six years decides to stay:
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

Kind regards
Trevor

Philip_B · Dec 5, 2022

There is the concept of eternal - outside the realm of the temporal, so no beginning and no end.

There is the concept of ever-lasting - which suggests it may begin in time but has no end.

It is a mistake, in my view, to assume these are the same thing, though clearly there is some crossover in the thinking.

St_Worm2 · Dec 5, 2022

Hello @Philip_B, I would be interested in hearing more about the differences in "eternal" and "everlasting" as you understand them and see them presented in the Bible. Are these differences found in the OT, NT or both?

Also, @Der Alte, while I agree that the sometimes-made claim around here, that עולם/olam ~NEVER~ means eternal, is clearly not true, what about αἰώνιος / aionios in the NT? Is there a Biblical example where it does NOT mean eternal/everlasting (in the sense of without beginning, without end, or without beginning or end, etc.)?

Thank you both (and thank you for your helpful/informative OP Der Alte :oldthumbsup:

)

God bless you!!

--David

Der Alte · Dec 5, 2022

TrevorL said:
Greetings Der Alte and Jonaitis,
My Enhanced Strong's gives the translation as eternal in some instances, but in other perpetual seems to be a better rendition:
5769 עֹולָם [ʿowlam, ʿolam /o·lawm/] n m. From 5956; TWOT 1631a; GK 6409; 439 occurrences; AV translates as “ever” 272 times, “everlasting” 63 times, “old” 22 times, “perpetual” 22 times, “evermore” 15 times, “never” 13 times, “time” six times, “ancient” five times, “world” four times, “always” three times, “alway” twice, “long” twice, “more” twice, “never + 408” twice, and translated miscellaneously six times. 1 long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world. 1A ancient time, long time (of past). 1B (of future). 1B1 for ever, always. 1B2 continuous existence, perpetual. 1B3 everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity.
Another similar example of perpetual or continually lasting is the servant who at the end of his six years decides to stay:
Exodus 21:6 (KJV): Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Kind regards
Trevor

Strong's is not a lexicon. It does not define words it only gives the translations found in the 100+ year old KJV, as indicated by the number of occurrences, e.g. "'everlasting' 63 times." Ex 21:6 one usage does not determine the definition. Thus, it is used hyperbolically. The 10 vss I posted clearly define/describe olam as eternal/everlasting. And I have 37 more such vss too many to post but later I will post book, chapter and verse.

Der Alte · Dec 5, 2022

St_Worm2 said:
Hello @Philip_B, I would be interested in hearing more about the differences in "eternal" and "everlasting" as you understand them and see them presented in the Bible. Are these differences found in the OT, NT or both?
Also, @Der Alte, while I agree that the sometimes-made claim around here, that עולם/olam ~NEVER~ means eternal, is clearly not true, what about αἰώνιος / aionios in the NT? Is there a Biblical example where it does NOT mean eternal/everlasting (in the sense of without beginning, without end, or without beginning or end, etc.)?
Thank you both (and thank you for your helpful/informative OP Der Alte )
God bless you!!
--David

I posted a thread on "Aionios" about 2-3 months ago here is a link.

αἰώνιος/aionios does in fact mean eternal, everlasting.

“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T. “aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T. “……….”….”………eternal 42 times in the N.T. “……….”….”………everlasting 25 times in the N.T. Jesus used “aionios” 28 times Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be...

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Here are my three top examples.

John 3:15-16

(15) so that everyone who believes in him may have eternal [aionios] life.

(16) "For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal [aionios] life.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. .

In these three vss. Jesus has juxtaposed aionios zoe/eternal/everlasting life with "shall not perish." three times. By definition, "aionios" means eternal/everlasting. I am not aware of any vs(s) which define or describe "aionios" as a period less that eternity.

Der Alte · Dec 5, 2022

Jonaitis said:
I don't see how I ignored it, but I see that you ignored mine.

I quoted 10 vss. of scripture, you did not address anything I said, you simply told me what you thought about "olam." "I do not think the Hebrew language had conceptualize our exact idea of "eternal," that is, without duration." Can you quote any scripture to support this?

TrevorL · Dec 5, 2022

Greetings Der Alte,

Der Alte said:
Strong's is not a lexicon. It does not define words it only gives the translations found in the 100+ year old KJV, as indicated by the number of occurrences, e.g. "'everlasting' 63 times."

Yes, it gives a definition of the word, and I am not sure if this Enhanced Strong's is more thorough or significantly different than the original Strong's.

TrevorL said:
1 long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world. 1A ancient time, long time (of past). 1B (of future). 1B1 for ever, always. 1B2 continuous existence, perpetual. 1B3 everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity.

This version also gives the direct connection to TWOT and if you like I could quote this as well. Again this is not exactly a Lexicon, but these resources often home in on the meaning better than some Lexicons.

Der Alte said:
Ex 21:6 one usage does not determine the definition.

Exodus 21:6 does fit the above definition and thus is part of the range of the word olam which you seem to ignore. I have heard the general definition that olam is a period of time which does not strictly define the beginning and end of this period of time apart from the context. I will look this up this afternoon, and also from memory "olam we ad" is the hidden period and beyond, thus the period of the Kingdom and beyond the 1000 years.

Kind regards
Trevor

Der Alte · Dec 5, 2022

TrevorL said:
Greetings Der Alte,
Yes, it gives a definition of the word, and I am not sure if this Enhanced Strong's is more thorough or significantly different than the original Strong's.
This version also gives the direct connection to TWOT and if you like I could quote this as well. Again this is not exactly a Lexicon, but these resources often home in on the meaning better than some Lexicons.
Exodus 21:6 does fit the above definition and thus is part of the range of the word olam which you seem to ignore. I have heard the general definition that olam is a period of time which does not strictly define the beginning and end of this period of time apart from the context. I will look this up this afternoon, and also from memory "olam we ad" is the hidden period and beyond, thus the period of the Kingdom and beyond the 1000 years.
Kind regards
Trevor

One of the vss. I quoted in the OP has olam w'ad.

Psalms 45:17

(17) (45:18) I will make thy name to be remembered in all generations; therefore shall the peoples praise thee for ever and ever. [לעלם ועד]

Here the psalmist paralleled ""remembered in all generations" with לעלם ועד/l'olam w'ad which the 1917 Jewish Publication society translated as "forever and ever."
Ex 21:65 is a parabolic usage of "olam." One such usage does not determine the meaning. "Olam" is never defined/described as a period less than eternal.

Der Alte · Dec 5, 2022

St_Worm2 said:
Hello @Philip_B, I would be interested in hearing more about the differences in "eternal" and "everlasting" as you understand them and see them presented in the Bible. Are these differences found in the OT, NT or both?
Also, @Der Alte, while I agree that the sometimes-made claim around here, that עולם/olam ~NEVER~ means eternal, is clearly not true, what about αἰώνιος / aionios in the NT? Is there a Biblical example where it does NOT mean eternal/everlasting (in the sense of without beginning, without end, or without beginning or end, etc.)?
Thank you both (and thank you for your helpful/informative OP Der Alte )
God bless you!!
--David

I reviewed every occurrence of "aionios" in the NT. I did not find even one vs. which defines/describes "aionios" as a period less than eternal. Aionios is never translated as "age" in the N.T. Aionios is an adjective "age" is a noun. It is translated "world" three times. Both aionios and olam are translated as eternal/everlasting in the Bible. They seem to be interchangeable.

St_Worm2 · Dec 5, 2022

Thank you for your help brother (@Der Alte)

I asked because (as I know you know) there is a small, but very vocal group of members here now who are trying to convince us that what you just said (concerning "aionios" and "olam") is not true

God bless you!!

--David

Der Alte · Dec 5, 2022

TrevorL said:
5769 עֹולָם [ʿowlam, ʿolam /o·lawm/] n m. From 5956; TWOT 1631a; GK 6409; 439 occurrences; AV translates as “ever” 272 times, “everlasting” 63 times, “old” 22 times, “perpetual” 22 times, “evermore” 15 times, “never” 13 times, “time” six times, “ancient” five times, “world” four times, “always” three times, “alway” twice, “long” twice, “more” twice, “never + 408” twice,

I took a second look at these definitions listed by Strong's as printed in the KJV. The predominant meanings "ever,” “everlasting,” “perpetual,” "evermore,” “never,” "always” total 394 of 439.

Der Alte · Dec 5, 2022

St_Worm2 said:
Thank you for your help brother (@Der Alte)

I asked because (as I know you know) there is a small, but very vocal group of members here now who are trying to convince us that what you just said (concerning "aionios" and "olam") is not true

God bless you!!

--David

Thanks.

Fervent · Dec 5, 2022

Jonaitis said:
I feel that those intended instances are still reading between the lines. If concepts like 'eternity' were being developed later, and these "instances" were better explained simultaneously, then it stands that we are the ones putting a new spin on its original meaning.

If we were speaking of a purely temporal document, I'd agree with you. But these words were inspired by the Holy Spirit so while the original audiences may not have seen the shades of meaning, the associations of the word still may have been fully intended by the true author.

St_Worm2 · Dec 5, 2022

Jonaitis said:
I do not think the Hebrew language had conceptualize our exact idea of "eternal," that is, without duration. When examining "olam," I found that it is often employed in the use of covenant ordinances and statues for the nation of Israel that are no longer in effect today. The Levitical priesthood, for example, would be properly interpreted as ever-enduring or successive in verses like Exodus 40:15. It seems more to embody the idea of continually lasting rather than endless.

Hello Jonaitis, as far as Israel of the Bronze Age having little to no developed sense of 'our' understanding of the meaning of "eternal", what do you make of the opening verses of the Psalm of Moses? This is just one example, of course, but it certainly seems to demonstrate that the ancient world did have a modern understanding of the words "eternal/everlasting", yes?

Pslam 90

1 LORD, Thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.

2 Before the mountains were born,

Or Thou didst give birth to the earth and the world,

Even from everlasting (ʿolam) to everlasting (ʿolam) Thou art God.

God bless you!!

--David

Does עולם/olam mean eternal or not?

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

Simul Justus et Peccator

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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