God Has No Meaning

Jonaitis · Sep 28, 2022

The Liturgist said:
No, since God is Himself the fullness of purpose and meaning, since all true meaning in the universe resolves to God.

God does not have a higher purpose to achieve, nor a meaning to fulfill.

Jonaitis · Sep 28, 2022

The Liturgist said:
What you are saying is merely a somewhat awkwardly stated special case of the theological principle that, to paraphrase St. Basil the Great, God is the height of perfection of all qualities and virtues in their ultimate fullness. God, as is often asserted, does not have attributes, like meaning, but rather is meaning itself. God does not have the attribute of truth, rather, God is truth. God does not have the attribute of virtue, but rather, God is virtue. And loving-kindness is not an attribute of God but likewise fundamental to Him, for God is love.

I don't think what you are saying is any different than what I am saying.

Jonaitis · Sep 28, 2022

Jamdoc said:
to create, to make something out of nothing and bring order and purpose to it, to love it, to be loved by it, and to redeem it.

God's meaning is to create? So, if He didn't create, does He lack fulfillment?

Jonaitis · Sep 28, 2022

BobRyan said:
Not according to God -

God claims He has done quite a lot in scripture.

He also complains that things are not working right at times for example Isaiah 5:4 he complains that he did everything right and still got a bad result - then God asks "What MORE was there to do that I have not already done?"

God speaks to us in analogous language. He is understood as the "ultimate meaning," because we have a sense of meaning. He, on the other hand, has no meaning. He is purposeless, imparting purpose to the work of His hands. His existence does not require meaning.

BobRyan · Sep 28, 2022

Jonaitis said:
God speaks to us in analogous language. .

God's communication is "accurate". Just as my communication with a 4 year old is accurate. I can accurately convey my meaning to the 4 year old without first requiring the the 4 year old master aerodynamics, or computer design, or calculus

You write as if our job is to "ignore what God says - because He certainly could not mean what He said - after all He is infinite".

God never says that is our job.

Jonaitis · Sep 28, 2022

BobRyan said:
God's communication is "accurate". Just as my communication with a 4 year old is accurate. I can accurately convey my meaning to the 4 year old without first requiring the the 4 year old master aerodynamics, or computer design, or calculus

You write as if our job is to "ignore what God says - because He certainly could not mean what He said - after all He is infinite".

God never says that is our job.

I don't recall ever writing anything of that nature.

public hermit · Sep 28, 2022

Jonaitis said:
God is.

He does not need meaning, but imparts meaning to all that He makes. He is the goal of the creature, but for Himself, what is there to be achieved other than what He is?

He is empty of self-purpose, but because of that, He is a purpose-giver.

Saying that God has no meaning is disturbing, perhaps even frightening, because we are still attached to things that are not God. Only things that have a beginning and an end need a purpose, a telos. If we were empty of everything and full of God, we would be as indifferent to meaning and purpose as God is.

Jonaitis · Sep 28, 2022

public hermit said:
Saying that God has no meaning is disturbing, perhaps even frightening, because we are still attached to things that are not God. Only things that have a beginning and an end need a purpose, a telos. If we were empty of everything and full of God, we would be as indifferent to meaning and purpose as God is.

Yes!

Jamdoc · Sep 28, 2022

Jonaitis said:
God's meaning is to create? So, if He didn't create, does He lack fulfillment?

Tricky question but God created everything to fulfill purpose for Himself.
If it had no purpose, nothing would be created.
or do you believe God creates in vain?

Jonaitis · Sep 28, 2022

Jamdoc said:
Tricky question but God created everything to fulfill purpose for Himself.
If it had no purpose, nothing would be created.
or do you believe God creates in vain?

Creation has purpose and meaning, and we can agree that it is Christ and His redemption.

Jonaitis · Sep 28, 2022

public hermit said:
Saying that God has no meaning is disturbing, perhaps even frightening, because we are still attached to things that are not God. Only things that have a beginning and an end need a purpose, a telos. If we were empty of everything and full of God, we would be as indifferent to meaning and purpose as God is.

Now, if God desired to create, then an influence would be necessary. It must be, then, that God creates because He does. It is from Him, through Him, and for Him all things exist (Romans 11:36). We are, by analogy, His play, because there is no need in an act of play. He made all things for Himself, and that's His game, as it were.

A strange analogy, for sure, but I am introducing some old perspectives from an Eastern thought.

public hermit · Sep 28, 2022

Jonaitis said:
Now, if God desired to create, then an influence would be necessary. It must be, then, that God creates because He does. It is from Him, through Him, and for Him all things exist (Romans 11:36). We are, by analogy, His play, because there is no need in an act of play. He made all things for Himself, and that's His game, as it were.

A strange analogy, for sure, but I am introducing some old perspectives from an Eastern thought.

This thread reminds me of Meister Eckhart's comment that we should learn how to live without a "Why?"

"The just man loves God for nothing, neither for this or for that, and if God gave him wisdom or anything else he had to give, except himself, the just man would not look at it, nor would it be to his taste; for he wants nothing, seeks nothing, and has no reason for doing anything. As God, having no motives, acts without them, so the just man acts without motives. As life lives on for its own sake, needing no reason for being, so the just man has no reason for doing what he does." Meister Eckhart (Fragment 23 from Raymond Bernard Blakney's translation 1941)

Jamdoc · Sep 28, 2022

Jonaitis said:
Creation has purpose and meaning, and we can agree that it is Christ and His redemption.

Correct, and if nothing was created, then that purpose would not be fulfilled.
So because there is purpose to it, and it fulfills something, then God had a semblence of a need for it to happen. Or a desire for it to happen.

God is love, but at the same time, God desires love, so He created to have things to love, and to be loved by.

Self love is never fulfillment. Love is relational. Our God is, at His very essence, relational.
When you make Him abstract the way you did in your initial post.. He feels like..... less. I know you're trying to make Him seem more, but it actually detracts.. because the foundation of God is relationship. The Father, the Son, the Spirit, all in relation to each other. They all have meaning to each other because of this relationship, and thus, God Himself has meaning because He is 3 persons in relationship, and has relationship in His creation and with His creation.

Without relationship, without meaning between entities in relationship.. it makes God impersonal and like a force, or concept, abstract, without love.

Jonaitis · Sep 29, 2022

public hermit said:
This thread reminds me of Meister Eckhart's comment that we should learn how to live without a "Why?"

"The just man loves God for nothing, neither for this or for that, and if God gave him wisdom or anything else he had to give, except himself, the just man would not look at it, nor would it be to his taste; for he wants nothing, seeks nothing, and has no reason for doing anything. As God, having no motives, acts without them, so the just man acts without motives. As life lives on for its own sake, needing no reason for being, so the just man has no reason for doing what he does." Meister Eckhart (Fragment 23 from Raymond Bernard Blakney's translation 1941)

Eckhart! What a blessing to see someone mention him on this forum, let alone quote him. Great quote.

Jonaitis · Sep 29, 2022

Jamdoc said:
Correct, and if nothing was created, then that purpose would not be fulfilled.
So because there is purpose to it, and it fulfills something, then God had a semblence of a need for it to happen. Or a desire for it to happen.

God is love, but at the same time, God desires love, so He created to have things to love, and to be loved by.

Self love is never fulfillment. Love is relational. Our God is, at His very essence, relational.
When you make Him abstract the way you did in your initial post.. He feels like..... less. I know you're trying to make Him seem more, but it actually detracts.. because the foundation of God is relationship. The Father, the Son, the Spirit, all in relation to each other. They all have meaning to each other because of this relationship, and thus, God Himself has meaning because He is 3 persons in relationship, and has relationship in His creation and with His creation.

Without relationship, without meaning between entities in relationship.. it makes God impersonal and like a force, or concept, abstract, without love.

God's love toward us is a redirection of His love to Himself. He does not love us for any other reason than Himself. He is relational, because His relation to us is in Him. He is the reason He loves us.

Jamdoc · Sep 29, 2022

Jonaitis said:
God's love toward us is a redirection of His love to Himself. He does not love us for any other reason than Himself. He is relational, because His relation to us is in Him. He is the reason He loves us.

if God did not desire love, God would not command us to love Him.

Jonaitis · Sep 29, 2022

Jamdoc said:
if God did not desire love, God would not command us to love Him.

God cannot desire, if He is both immutable and impassible.

Jamdoc · Sep 29, 2022

Jonaitis said:
God cannot desire, if He is both immutable and impassible.

See there you go again, making God impersonal, like an abstract force.
That's not the God the bible teaches, who is always personal, relational, and humanizes Himself, even describing Himself using terms for body parts, and utilizing human emotions.

it's frankly a depressing view.

Jonaitis · Sep 29, 2022

Jamdoc said:
See there you go again, making God impersonal, like an abstract force.
That's not the God the bible teaches, who is always personal, relational, and humanizes Himself, even describing Himself using terms for body parts, and utilizing human emotions.

it's frankly a depressing view.

God is both impersonal and personal, it depends on your perspective. The scriptures paint God with positive and personal qualities, because it is relative to us.

You think it is a depressing view, because you were taught that. If we are to have a high view of God, we must not reduce our whole understanding of who He is down to our level.

public hermit · Sep 29, 2022

Jonaitis said:
God is both impersonal and personal, it depends on your perspective. The scriptures paint God with positive and personal qualities, because it is relative to us.

You think it is a depressing view, because you were taught that. If we are to have a high view of God, we must not reduce our whole understanding of who He is down to our level.

I think there is a tendency to identify the revelation of God to us with the being or essence of God. The Cappadocians, who were staunch defenders of orthodoxy and the Trinity, were very good at making the distinction so that even in their discussions of the Trinity, they were sure to emphasize that the divine essence is ultimately inscrutable. They were thoroughly schooled in the apophatic approach before (Psuedo) Dionysius came along with his landmark The Mystical Theology.

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