What about 1 Corinthians 3:15?

zoidar

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According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
— 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

I have always felt this comforting, that even I may be failing in my walk with God, I will be saved, even it is by fire. Today I read Chrysostom and he wrote the following:

"Now his meaning is this: If any man have an ill life with a right faith, his faith shall not shelter him from punishment, his work being burnt up. The phrase, shall be burned up, means, shall not endure the violence of the fire. But just as if a man having golden armor on were to pass through a river of fire, he comes from crossing it all the brighter; but if he were to pass through it with hay, so far from profiting, he destroys himself besides; so also is the case in regard of men's works. For he does not say this as if he were discoursing of material things being burnt up, but with a view of making their fear more intense, and of showing how naked of all defence he is who abides in wickedness. Wherefore he said, He shall suffer loss: lo, here is one punishment: but he himself shall be saved, but so as by fire; lo, again, here is a second. And his meaning is, He himself shall not perish in the same way as his works, passing into nought, but he shall abide in the fire.

6. He calls it, however, Salvation, you will say; why, that is the cause of his adding, so as by fire: since we also used to say, It is preserved in the fire, when we speak of those substances which do not immediately burn up and become ashes. For do not at sound of the word fire imagine that those who are burning pass into annihilation. And though he call such punishment Salvation, be not astonished. For his custom is in things which have an ill sound to use fair expressions, and in good things the contrary. For example, the word Captivity seems to be the name of an evil thing, but Paul has applied it in a good sense, when he says, Bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. [ 2 Corinthians 10:5 ] And again, to an evil thing he has applied a good word, saying, Sin reigned, [ Romans 5:21 ] here surely the term reigning is rather of auspicious sound. And so here in saying, he shall be saved, he has but darkly hinted at the intensity of the penalty: as if he had said, But himself shall remain forever in punishment."
Chrysostom says that "he himself will be saved" doesn't refer to salvation at all, but that he won't be burnt up like his works, but instead will suffer eternal punishment. I must say I'm quite troubled with that understanding.

Is this also how the Orthodox church view this vers? (1 Cor 3:15)



 

ArmyMatt

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According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
— 1 Corinthians 3:10-15

I have always felt this comforting, that even I may be failing in my walk with God, I will be saved, even it is by fire. Today I read Chrysostom and he wrote the following:

"Now his meaning is this: If any man have an ill life with a right faith, his faith shall not shelter him from punishment, his work being burnt up. The phrase, shall be burned up, means, shall not endure the violence of the fire. But just as if a man having golden armor on were to pass through a river of fire, he comes from crossing it all the brighter; but if he were to pass through it with hay, so far from profiting, he destroys himself besides; so also is the case in regard of men's works. For he does not say this as if he were discoursing of material things being burnt up, but with a view of making their fear more intense, and of showing how naked of all defence he is who abides in wickedness. Wherefore he said, He shall suffer loss: lo, here is one punishment: but he himself shall be saved, but so as by fire; lo, again, here is a second. And his meaning is, He himself shall not perish in the same way as his works, passing into nought, but he shall abide in the fire.

6. He calls it, however, Salvation, you will say; why, that is the cause of his adding, so as by fire: since we also used to say, It is preserved in the fire, when we speak of those substances which do not immediately burn up and become ashes. For do not at sound of the word fire imagine that those who are burning pass into annihilation. And though he call such punishment Salvation, be not astonished. For his custom is in things which have an ill sound to use fair expressions, and in good things the contrary. For example, the word Captivity seems to be the name of an evil thing, but Paul has applied it in a good sense, when he says, Bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ. [ 2 Corinthians 10:5 ] And again, to an evil thing he has applied a good word, saying, Sin reigned, [ Romans 5:21 ] here surely the term reigning is rather of auspicious sound. And so here in saying, he shall be saved, he has but darkly hinted at the intensity of the penalty: as if he had said, But himself shall remain forever in punishment."
Chrysostom says that "he himself will be saved" doesn't refer to salvation at all, but that he won't be burnt up like his works, but instead will suffer eternal punishment. I must say I'm quite troubled with that understanding.

Is this also how the Orthodox church view this vers? (1 Cor 3:15)




it’s one way of reading it. in Orthodoxy, there can be many ways of reading Scripture depending on what point you are trying to make.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I can see why it would be troublesome …But Paul is referencing works …and the end part of that just reads awkwardly. Here are two different translations that are a bit better.

Geneva Bible 1599 reads

15 If any man’s work burn, he shall lose, but he shall be saved himself: nevertheless yet as it were by the fire.

The Peshitta Bible reads

15) And the one whose work shall be burned; he himself shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be rescued, even as one who has been saved from the fire.


To say that he will suffer eternal punishment is private interpretation which has no basis. It is contrary to so many scriptures I wouldn’t know where to begin…

please realize the forum that you are in and follow our rules.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Messed up again ...sorry. I do need to be more vigilant.

you’re good, just trying to prevent the potential free for all. if you want to debate what we think, feel free in St Justin’s.
 
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sandman

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you’re good, just trying to prevent the potential free for all. if you want to debate what we think, feel free in St Justin’s.

Totally understand …and I respect that.

I just forget to look sometimes….But I appreciate you letting me know.
 
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ArmyMatt

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Totally understand …and I respect that.

I just forget to look sometimes….But I appreciate you letting me know.

yep, and we welcome the debate in our debate forum, FYI.
 
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No one else got anything to say about this?

I always understood what St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 3:5-17 as pertaining to doing good works appropriate to our faith &repentance. I believe what St. Paul said to Agrippa ( Acts of the Apostles 26:20), also Colossians 1:10, Colossians 1:19-23, & Romans 11:22-23 can be applied.

I have to say that I do not fully understand the seemingly pessimistic extent of St. John Chrysostom’s explanation. I believe St. Paul has taken everything into account by warning us about sinful works (stealing etc.) & unworthy works ( like giving junk food instead of healthy food or money to a food bank) as what will be purified or burned up by fire.
 
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zoidar

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any thoughts so far?

I thought that Chrysostom was the man to go to for Biblical interpretation for the Orthodox church. Maybe he is? But you say Bible verses can be used to describe different things. I'm not sure about that. I know people do it all the time, I'm more of a believer to chisel out the true meaning of each verse.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I thought that Chrysostom was the man to go to for Biblical interpretation for the Orthodox church. Maybe he is? But you say Bible verses can be used to describe different things. I'm not sure about that. I know people do it all the time, I'm more of a believer to chisel out the true meaning of each verse.

he is, just not the only one. and you can chisel out the true meaning, just know there might be more than one
 
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I thought that Chrysostom was the man to go to for Biblical interpretation for the Orthodox church. Maybe he is? But you say Bible verses can be used to describe different things. I'm not sure about that. I know people do it all the time, I'm more of a believer to chisel out the true meaning of each verse.
Some of what Church fathers have written is their personal opinion only, and can fall outside of the consensus of Holy Tradition. We don't accept, for example, every interpretation of Scripture coming out of the writings of Blessed Augustine. As for how to understand St. Paul, it might be helpful (and might not) to question and reflect upon what the nature of such works as he's pointing to might be. I wonder, what sort of works might we do that would have no eternal value? Can we do a good work, but have it turn into something unworthy of Eternity? What "fruits" will last forever (i.e. endure God, "Who is a consuming Fire")? As a builder, am I really building in accordance with God's will, or am I mistaking what I want to do for His will? When His Light comes will I only then realize in a painful (burning) way that I've been a proud, self-serving fool, and manage by His Grace to be "saved", only after having been burned by the Truth of God, at the last moment? Paul, perhaps, is informing us of the importance of striving for perfection in our spiritual walk? We don't know if, our works having been burned up, we'll receive the grace to repent of those works of ours which have no value in the Kingdom of God. The Bridegroom comes at midnight. The guest at the wedding banquet who was found to be without a wedding garment was cast into outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Why risk eternity on spiritual negligence?
 
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ArmyMatt

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Some of what Church fathers have written is their personal opinion only, and can fall outside of the consensus of Holy Tradition. We don't accept, for example, every interpretation of Scripture coming out of the writings of Blessed Augustine. As for how to understand St. Paul, it might be helpful (and might not) to question and reflect upon what the nature of such works as he's pointing to might be. I wonder, what sort of works might we do that would have no eternal value? Can we do a good work, but have it turn into something unworthy of Eternity? What "fruits" will last forever (i.e. endure God, "Who is a consuming Fire")? As a builder, am I really building in accordance with God's will, or am I mistaking what I want to do for His will? When His Light comes will I only then realize in a painful (burning) way that I've been a proud, self-serving fool, and manage by His Grace to be "saved", only after having been burned by the Truth of God, at the last moment? Paul, perhaps, is informing us of the importance of striving for perfection in our spiritual walk? We don't know if, our works having been burned up, we'll receive the grace to repent of those works of ours which have no value in the Kingdom of God. The Bridegroom comes at midnight. The guest at the wedding banquet who was found to be without a wedding garment was cast into outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Why risk eternity on spiritual negligence?

well, there are certain works that are good but are only aspects of our fallen condition, which will not last (like sex between married couples).
 
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