Revelation 20:8 is a key that unlocks where the thousand years fit.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


The view that can explain who these are and what they are doing during the thousand years, and that it agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled--is the correct view.

The only view that can possibly do that is Premil, unless PostMil can do it, Amil certainly can't .

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


This does not involve the great white throne judgment, because if it did, where is there even a hint in the text that humans are also being given to the burning flame at the time? Even the rest of the beasts, whatever are meant by them, are not given to the burning flame at that time, instead, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

If the great white throne judgment is meant here, it makes nonsense out of verse 12 since no such thing would be possible, that ones' dominion is taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time, during the time of Revelation 20:11-15.

If we instead have these verses involving the end of this age and the commencement of the thousand years, verse 12 then makes sense in this context. Like I have pointed out in the past, if the great white throne judgment is meant above, who would care what happened to the rest of the beasts at an earlier time? It would be irrelevant and pointless to make mention of this in a context involving the great white throne judgment. Instead, the text would be saying this of verse 12---As concerning the rest of the beasts, they too were given to the burning flame at that time---except it doesn't say that, does it?

Obviously, the end of this present age and the commencement of the thousand years are what these verses are involving.

I used this passage to explain those meant in Revelation 20:8 and what they would be doing during the thousand years. There is also Zechariah 14:16-19 to factor in here as well, which also fits with a ruling of the nations with a rod of iron(Revelation 2:26-27) post the 2nd coming.

And though satan was deceiving the mortal survivors of the 2nd coming prior to the 2nd coming, he is no longer able to deceive them after the 2nd coming during the thousand years, though. Which then fully agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled.

I will probably have more to add as we go, but this all I have typed up for now.

Let's see another position, such as Amil, make better sense out of what those meant in Revelation 20:8 are doing during the thousand years. We know what they are doing after the thousand years, but what are they doing during the thousand years, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? Is satan deceiving them during the millennium, thus contradicting this--that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled? Or is satan no longer deceiving them during the millennium, thus agreeing with this----that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled?

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The 1,000 years is spent in heaven .... not on earth .... Jesus finished His work on earth and now ministers from heaven .... when He returns .... the first resurrection happens .... and all left on earth are destroyed and satan has nobody left on earth to deceive .... later the 2nd resurrection (of the lost) happens and this is the battle of Gog and Magog ... and yes all the lost will once again be deceived and they will attack the city that has descended from heaven.

Revelation 20

8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to assemble them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the seashore. 9And they marched across the broad expanse of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. But fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


The view that can explain who these are and what they are doing during the thousand years, and that it agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled--is the correct view.

The only view that can possibly do that is Premil, unless PostMil can do it, Amil certainly can't .

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


This does not involve the great white throne judgment, because if it did, where is there even a hint in the text that humans are also being given to the burning flame at the time? Even the rest of the beasts, whatever are meant by them, are not given to the burning flame at that time, instead, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

If the great white throne judgment is meant here, it makes nonsense out of verse 12 since no such thing would be possible, that ones' dominion is taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time, during the time of Revelation 20:11-15.

If we instead have these verses involving the end of this age and the commencement of the thousand years, verse 12 then makes sense in this context. Like I have pointed out in the past, if the great white throne judgment is meant above, who would care what happened to the rest of the beasts at an earlier time? It would be irrelevant and pointless to make mention of this in a context involving the great white throne judgment. Instead, the text would be saying this of verse 12---As concerning the rest of the beasts, they too were given to the burning flame at that time---except it doesn't say that, does it?

Obviously, the end of this present age and the commencement of the thousand years are what these verses are involving.

I used this passage to explain those meant in Revelation 20:8 and what they would be doing during the thousand years. There is also Zechariah 14:16-19 to factor in here as well, which also fits with a ruling of the nations with a rod of iron(Revelation 2:26-27) post the 2nd coming.

And though satan was deceiving the mortal survivors of the 2nd coming prior to the 2nd coming, he is no longer able to deceive them after the 2nd coming during the thousand years, though. Which then fully agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled.

I will probably have more to add as we go, but this all I have typed up for now.

Let's see another position, such as Amil, make better sense out of what those meant in Revelation 20:8 are doing during the thousand years. We know what they are doing after the thousand years, but what are they doing during the thousand years, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? Is satan deceiving them during the millennium, thus contradicting this--that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled? Or is satan no longer deceiving them during the millennium, thus agreeing with this----that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled?

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Yes, it's difficult for me to understand how the Church could for many centuries allegorize the Millennium. They must've turned so hard against the Hope of the Jewish People that they left no space for them to get turned around and join the Christian nations of the world? All your arguments are valid, insofar as I can understand them. But then again, trying to make sense of Amil is very difficult not just for me, but it should be for everyone, because it simply dismisses what is read and turns it into a foreign explanation.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The view that can explain who these are and what they are doing during the thousand years, and that it agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled--is the correct view.

The only view that can possibly do that is Premil, unless PostMil can do it, Amil certainly can't .

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

This does not involve the great white throne judgment, because if it did, where is there even a hint in the text that humans are also being given to the burning flame at the time? Even the rest of the beasts, whatever are meant by them, are not given to the burning flame at that time, instead, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

If the great white throne judgment is meant here, it makes nonsense out of verse 12 since no such thing would be possible, that ones' dominion is taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time, during the time of Revelation 20:11-15.

If we instead have these verses involving the end of this age and the commencement of the thousand years, verse 12 then makes sense in this context. Like I have pointed out in the past, if the great white throne judgment is meant above, who would care what happened to the rest of the beasts at an earlier time? It would be irrelevant and pointless to make mention of this in a context involving the great white throne judgment. Instead, the text would be saying this of verse 12---As concerning the rest of the beasts, they too were given to the burning flame at that time---except it doesn't say that, does it?

Obviously, the end of this present age and the commencement of the thousand years are what these verses are involving.

I used this passage to explain those meant in Revelation 20:8 and what they would be doing during the thousand years. There is also Zechariah 14:16-19 to factor in here as well, which also fits with a ruling of the nations with a rod of iron(Revelation 2:26-27) post the 2nd coming.

And though satan was deceiving the mortal survivors of the 2nd coming prior to the 2nd coming, he is no longer able to deceive them after the 2nd coming during the thousand years, though. Which then fully agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled.

I will probably have more to add as we go, but this all I have typed up for now.

Let's see another position, such as Amil, make better sense out of what those meant in Revelation 20:8 are doing during the thousand years. We know what they are doing after the thousand years, but what are they doing during the thousand years, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? Is satan deceiving them during the millennium, thus contradicting this--that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled? Or is satan no longer deceiving them during the millennium, thus agreeing with this----that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled?

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Why do you arbitrarily place Dan 7:9-12 to the end of the age without giving and verification from Scripture that is the time they belong to? IOW how do you know?

What is your definition of ruling the nations with a rod of iron?

Finally, how do you know the nations, referenced as Gog & Magog are not already deceived when TIME likened to a thousand years is finished?

DavidPT said:

Roger, let's start here then.

Daniel 7:16 I came near unto one of them that stood by, and asked him the truth of all this. So he told me, and made me know the interpretation of the things.

This tells us that the verses that follow, some of them are the interpretation of Daniel 7:9-12. Which verse or verses in particular, after that of verse 16, should we assume is the interpretation of Daniel 7:9-12? How about the following, for one?

Daniel 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;
22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

How can verse 21 not be involving the following in Revelation 13?

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

And what does this verse ultimately lead to? Does it not lead to the 2nd coming recorded in Revelation 19? Isn't that what puts a stop to the persecution of the saints via the beast?

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Doesn't this involve the same events the following in Daniel 12 are involving?

Daniel 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

If no, what event do you propose this is involving? If you instead agree, Revelation 19 already undeniably proves that Daniel 7:9-12 involve the end of this age and the 2nd coming. Which then brings us to Daniel 7:22.

Daniel 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Does not this verse clearly indicate it is this coming recorded in verse 22 that puts a final end to the war with the saints recorded in verse 21?

What else does this verse say, verse 22? and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

Now compare this--- and judgment was given to the saints of the most High---with that of this recorded in Revelation 20:4---and judgment was given unto them

This is what they look like when being placed like the following.

and judgment was given to the saints of the most High(Daniel 7:22)
and judgment was given unto them(Revelation 20:4)

It can't get any clearer than this, Revelation 20:4 is obviously quoting from Daniel 7:22 here.

And something else to factor in, Revelation 20:4 involves thrones, as does Daniel 7:9-12.

The great white throne judgment though, that isn't involving thrones, it is only involving one throne not multiple thrones.

This is plenty of evidence for me to conclude what I am in regards to Daniel 7:9-12. Why it's not enough evidence for some of the rest of you, is perhaps explained via doctrinal bias, would be my educated guess.

Roger, there is no way all of the above can be merely coincidences. Someone is trying to tell us something here but some just don't care to listen since it causes conflicts with their present view if any or all of the above is correct.

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I question whether 7:1-12 should be interpreted as belonging to the age before the advent of Christ's crucifixion and resurrection? Then vs 13 the beginning of the Gospel age after Christ ascends to the Father. What thrones did the Ancient of days cast down before Daniel saw one like the Son of man come with the clouds of heaven to the Ancient of days?

Daniel 7:9-11 (KJV) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Compare Dan 7 with Rev 4 & 5.

DavidPT said:

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

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How can these verses be depicting Christ in heaven before His ascension? This is one reason I believe the first twelve verses depict heaven before the advent of Christ on earth.

DavidPT said:

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

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Then in vs 13 the vision changes after the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ. Daniel asks for understanding of the vision he had seen. But the four great beasts that arose from the sea (vs. 3) now arise from the earth (vs. 17). Are these of vs 12 whose dominion was taken but their lives spared "for a season and time"?

Daniel 7:12 (KJV) As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

Daniel is told that even though these four great beasts are kings "the saints of the most High shall take the kingdom, and possess the kingdom for ever, even for ever and ever."

What about the fourth beast who was diverse from all the others? As I read the following passage IMO this is describing the whole Gospel era. The age/era for building the Kingdom of heaven as the Gospel is proclaimed unto all the nations of the earth.

Daniel 7:19-28 (KJV) Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet; And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom. Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. Hitherto is the end of the matter. As for me Daniel, my cogitations much troubled me, and my countenance changed in me: but I kept the matter in my heart.

DavidPT said:

But how do you propose Revelation 4 and 5 explains that the little horn is given to the burning flame? Surely, it is meaning the LOF. No one has been cast into the LOF yet.

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The vision shows Daniel only that the beast was slain and his body destroyed and given to the burning flame. But the vision does not tell us when this will happen. When is this diverse beast slain, his body destroyed and given to the burning flame?

Revelation 20:7-8 (KJV) And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

Revelation 20:9-10 (KJV) And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

DavidPT said:

Which basically means you are promoting that the lost are resurrected two different times and encounter 3 deaths rather than only two.

As to the 3 deaths you are promoting via this interpretation.

1st death.
Revelation 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

2nd death.
Revelation 20:9--- and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


3rd death.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

It is always a red flag when one's interpretation is obviously disagreeing with the texts involved. Revelation 20:14 only knows of 2 deaths pertaining to the lost, thus the 2nd death, not 3 deaths instead.

As to the two resurrections of the lost you are promoting via this interpretation.

The first one.
When the rest of the dead come back to life at the beginning of satan's little season.

The second one.
When the rest of the dead come back to life at the end of satan's little season after having been devoured by fire from God out of heaven in order to stand bodily at the great white throne judgment, which then fulfills this---to destroy both soul and body in hell(Matthew 10:28). Have to be in a body to accomplish that. Can't still be in a body if they were devoured by fire from God out of heaven.

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no there are is possibility of 2 deaths ... first earthly .... all wait in the grave (dormant sleep) and either come up in the first or second resurrections .... those in the 2nd resurrection are the lost .... and those will suffer the 2nd death .... destroyed for eternity.

When Jesus returns those in the 1st resurrection are taken to heaven for the 1,000 years .... the lost left on planet earth are destroyed (1st death-earthly death) and after the 1,000 years will be resurrected ... battle of Gog and Magog takes place, great white thrown judgement occurs ... this is the 2nd death for them ... destroyed for eternity.

There are 2 resurrections. Don't see how you are getting 3?

DavidPT said:

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


The view that can explain who these are and what they are doing during the thousand years, and that it agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled--is the correct view.

The only view that can possibly do that is Premil, unless PostMil can do it, Amil certainly can't .

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


This does not involve the great white throne judgment, because if it did, where is there even a hint in the text that humans are also being given to the burning flame at the time? Even the rest of the beasts, whatever are meant by them, are not given to the burning flame at that time, instead, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

If the great white throne judgment is meant here, it makes nonsense out of verse 12 since no such thing would be possible, that ones' dominion is taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time, during the time of Revelation 20:11-15.

If we instead have these verses involving the end of this age and the commencement of the thousand years, verse 12 then makes sense in this context. Like I have pointed out in the past, if the great white throne judgment is meant above, who would care what happened to the rest of the beasts at an earlier time? It would be irrelevant and pointless to make mention of this in a context involving the great white throne judgment. Instead, the text would be saying this of verse 12---As concerning the rest of the beasts, they too were given to the burning flame at that time---except it doesn't say that, does it?

Obviously, the end of this present age and the commencement of the thousand years are what these verses are involving.

I used this passage to explain those meant in Revelation 20:8 and what they would be doing during the thousand years. There is also Zechariah 14:16-19 to factor in here as well, which also fits with a ruling of the nations with a rod of iron(Revelation 2:26-27) post the 2nd coming.

And though satan was deceiving the mortal survivors of the 2nd coming prior to the 2nd coming, he is no longer able to deceive them after the 2nd coming during the thousand years, though. Which then fully agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled.

I will probably have more to add as we go, but this all I have typed up for now.

Let's see another position, such as Amil, make better sense out of what those meant in Revelation 20:8 are doing during the thousand years. We know what they are doing after the thousand years, but what are they doing during the thousand years, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea? Is satan deceiving them during the millennium, thus contradicting this--that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled? Or is satan no longer deceiving them during the millennium, thus agreeing with this----that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled?

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Revelation chapter 20 isn't a prophecy about the end of the world but a prophecy about the end of the ancient world ruled by despots. Yes hell is real but these are not prophecies about hell.

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
The great white throne is the same great white throne in Daniel chapter 7. In Daniel 7 the saints influence becomes the dominate influence in the world. Their judgements of right and wrong, truth and lies become dominate. This was all to begin to occur after the fall of the 4th empire prophesied about in the Bible; Rome. Revelation 19 is the fall of that Roman Empire in 1453 AD.
The books in this prophecy are the record of peoples deeds. The one book of life is the Bible. The dead are not those who have died but those without Christ in the nations. This is a good news prophecy about exactly what has been occurring in the world since 1453 AD when for the first time in human history the Bible began to make its way into the hands of the general public. You'll see this clearer in the next verses.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The sea illustrates the nations of the world and the dead are those in it who are without Christ but now are hearing the gospel. That is what it means that the sea is giving up its dead. Death and hell are what ruled in the nations. Because they are now hearing the gospel. billions getting saved and transforming those nations so that death and hell no longer rule them. The Gospel, the Word of God and the river of life that proceeds forth from the throne of heaven through believers is transforming the nations of the world. Death and hell being cast into the lake of fire is an illustration of the finality of the end of their rule over the nations. Human beings are now having a say in their temporal and eternal destinies. Something they didn't have in the environment of the despotic ancient world that was separated from the grace of God.

Be excited. In the time frame measured by the history of the world this thing is just getting started.

Psalm 72 is a prophecy about the rein of the messiah in the earth after the fall of the forth empire that made war agsint the saints and overcame them. If you read it you'll see it's not a utopia being prophesied about as the blood of the poor and needy is still being split and their are still oppressors. The difference is the oppressors do not rule the entire world like they did the ancient one. . Look at these verses about that reign though.

3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. 4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.

The mountains and hills are the nations of the world that bring peace to the people. Why? Because they have adopted the righteousness of the principles of Gods Word. What has been happening to the oppressors of the world for 500 years now? they are being crushed. Slowly but surely as the Gospel spreads and the believers grow in numbers and knowledge, the free world has been growing.

It's high time Gods people drop the likes of Mohamed and Joseph Smiths paradigm and reading the the Bible's prophecy. God wants his peoples agreement, faith and sacrifice to fulfill his vision for the future which is quite the opposite of the dystopian visions of the the future the world has to offer. As one preacher says. This is happening. You can oppose it or get in on it, your choice. But its still happening.

DavidPT said:

Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.


The view that can explain who these are and what they are doing during the thousand years, and that it agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled--is the correct view.

The only view that can possibly do that is Premil, unless PostMil can do it, Amil certainly can't .

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I beg to differ.

Daniel 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.


This does not involve the great white throne judgment, because if it did, where is there even a hint in the text that humans are also being given to the burning flame at the time?

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Oh, I see. You're using the logic that if something is not specifically mentioned in a passage then that thing can't be part of the event that the passage is talking about. That is the kind of logic that pre-tribs use to make 1 Thess 4:14-17 into a different event than Matthew 24:29-31. Are you sure you should use this type of logic? Why does every passage about the day of judgment have to contain all of the same details in order to be about that event? That makes no sense. Yet, that's the kind of logic you're using here.

There's enough similar details to see that the judgment of Daniel 7:9-11 is the same as Revelation 20:11-15. It says the judgment was set and the books were opened. That's going to happen twice in the future? No. Why would it? How can that not be talking about this:

Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Think about this. Why would the books all be opened in Daniel 7:9-11 if that was just talking about a judgment of the beast and not of people?

Even the rest of the beasts, whatever are meant by them, are not given to the burning flame at that time, instead, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

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That is a parenthetical verse and is not talking about beasts that exist at the same time. The beasts refer to historical sequential earthly kingdoms (world empires), but you somehow have them all in power at the same time.

If the great white throne judgment is meant here, it makes nonsense out of verse 12 since no such thing would be possible, that ones' dominion is taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time, during the time of Revelation 20:11-15.

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What makes nonsense of verse 12 is your insistence that it's talking about the four beasts all being in power at the same time. It's not. How can that even be possible when scripture indicates that a prophetic beast represents a world empire or kingdom? Verse 12 is a parenthetical statement that Daniel made similar to how John saying "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished" in Revelation 20:5 is parenthetical.

If we instead have these verses involving the end of this age and the commencement of the thousand years, verse 12 then makes sense in this context. Like I have pointed out in the past, if the great white throne judgment is meant above, who would care what happened to the rest of the beasts at an earlier time?

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Plenty of people would care because there's no explanation given elsewhere of what came of the other 3 beasts which represented the historical Babylonian, Medo-Persian and Greek empires. What do you think the other 3 beasts represent?

I used this passage to explain those meant in Revelation 20:8 and what they would be doing during the thousand years. There is also Zechariah 14:16-19 to factor in here as well, which also fits with a ruling of the nations with a rod of iron(Revelation 2:26-27) post the 2nd coming.

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Ruling the nations with a rod of iron has to do with breaking/destroying them. Just read Psalm 2:7-9 and Revelation 19:15. Why do you not take these passages into account when determining what it means to rule with a rod of iron? Scripture teaches that Jesus will destroy all of His enemies when He returns, not rule over them.

And though satan was deceiving the mortal survivors of the 2nd coming prior to the 2nd coming, he is no longer able to deceive them after the 2nd coming during the thousand years, though. Which then fully agrees with this---that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled.

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Mortal survivors of the second coming? Who will they be exactly and why would they be allowed to survive? In other words, what will be different about them compared to those who He destroys at His second coming?

Scripture doesn't teach that there will be any mortal survivors of the second coming. Scripture teaches that the earth will be burned up when He comes (2 Peter 3:10-13) and that He will be destroying all of those "who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ" (2 Thess 1:7-8) which will include all unbelievers "both free and bond, both small and great" (Rev 19:17-18).

I will probably have more to add as we go, but this all I have typed up for now.

Let's see another position, such as Amil, make better sense out of what those meant in Revelation 20:8 are doing during the thousand years. We know what they are doing after the thousand years, but what are they doing during the thousand years, the number of whom is as the sand of the sea?

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Oh, so now you're at least allowing Amil to try to give a better explanation? Earlier you were acting as if that wasn't possible. What those in Revelation 20:8 are doing is obviously actively opposing the camp of the saints, which I see as a reference to the church. And, it includes unbelievers from all over the world doing this, as the text indicates. What else is it talking about them doing?

Is satan deceiving them during the millennium, thus contradicting this--that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled? Or is satan no longer deceiving them during the millennium, thus agreeing with this----that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled?

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This is what you always do. You act as if everyone is supposed to have the same understanding of what it means for Satan to deceive the nations as you have. That isn't reasonable.

The Amil understanding of Satan deceiving the nations is that it has to do with his general ability to keep the world in spiritual darkness like he was able to in Old Testament times. He has not been able to do that in New Testament times and will only be allowed that same level of freedom for a little season before the return of Christ. I believe Paul wrote about that little season in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. It involves an increase in wickedness and results in a mass falling away from the faith during that time.

DavidPT said:

Yet, in Revelation 20 and the great white throne judgment, it is obvious that humans are being cast into the LOF at the time. Maybe you haven't noticed, or that you are simply in denial of the fact, but the judgment involving the beast getting cast into the LOF, the judgment involving satan getting cast into the LOF, and the judgment involving humans getting cast into the LOF, these are different judgments that don't take place at the same time, therefore, the great white throne judgment is not meant by all of these.

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Come on now. Please don't act like you've proven anything here, which you definitely have not. Your "proof" is just that there are details in one passage that aren't found in another and that means they can't be referring to the same judgment. Using that approach, we could not relate any two passages of scripture together. Using that approach, we could conclude that there is going to be about 17 different judgment days in the future. Do you really think that you're making a strong argument here with this line of reasoning?

For example, Revelation 19.

Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Where does it ever mention satan and humans also being cast into the LOF when the beast and false prophet are?

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Why does it have to mention that every time it talks about the day of judgment? Let me give a simple illustration of how this approach you're using can lead to concluding that two obviously related passages are not actually related.

Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

2 Peter 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Using your interpretive approach, we could conclude that these two verses are speaking of two different days of judgment because 2 Peter 2:9 doesn't say anything about anyone having to give account of their words like Matthew 12:36 does. So, that means they are speaking of different days of judgment. Can you see how this approach is very fallible? So, why do you use it? Clearly, not all passages about the day of judgment have all the same details. Not all passages about the second coming have all the same details. Not all passages about the resurrection of the dead have all the same details. But, that doesn't mean each passage that refers to the second coming can be separated into a different event like pre-tribs do. Do you realize you're doing the same kind of thing they do? This same type of approach that you're using is how they end up not recognizing that 1 Thess 4:14-17 is the same event as Matthew 24:29-31.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Where does it ever mention humans in this verse being cast into the LOF when satan is cast into it?

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Why does that need to be the case? They are mentioned later.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Are you trying to say that Revelation 20:15 happens at a completely different time than Revelation 20:10? If not, then what is your point here?

Where does it ever mention that satan, the beast, and the false prophet, are among any of the dead at this judgment?

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Who is even saying that? Not me. Now you're arguing with a straw man.

IOW, I'm not arguing like the examples per Pretrib you used to try and discredit my arguments

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Yes, you are. And everyone here can see that.

I'm arguing with what the Scriptures say, not say instead. And the Scriptures I provided say that the great white throne judgment does not also involve the judgment of satan, the beast, and the false prophet, because, after all, no matter how you look at it, they are already in the LOF before the great white throne judgment even begins.

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Wait a minute here. Are you suggesting that Satan won't have to stand before the great white throne? Sure, he will. And his angels as well. Why wouldn't they? Just because it mentions Satan being cast into the lake of fire before anyone (or anything) else, doesn't mean he does not have to stand before the great white throne.

Therefore, when the beast is being given to the burning flame in Daniel 7, it is not meaning Revelation 20:11-15 unless you can point out the beast and false prophet in those verses, thus proving that they too are among the dead standing before God at the time in order to be judged and sentenced at the great white throne judgment.

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Why do I need to point out the beast and false prophet in those verses? It mentions them in Revelation 20:10. Just because John didn't say that he saw the great white throne until verse 11 doesn't mean he was saying that Satan is somehow cast into the lake of fire without having to appear before the great white throne first. You are confusing the timing of when John saw something in a vision with the timing of when things actually happen. There's no basis for assuming that nothing happened yet at the great white throne before John saw the dead stand before it.