Does the Bible agree that men and women are equal?

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Where did you address 1 Timothy 2:12? That's really the passage that is relevant here.

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Ok, so before I do that; how do you understand 1 Tim 2:12?

Jesse Dornfeld said:

If it is the passage I am thinking of, it is very debatable on what exactly Paul meant in that passage.
I am not really anti-women when I say that the normal way things are done, by nature, is that men are to lead and women are to follow. This is not a hard and fast rule, but it is definitely more in line with what the Bible teaches than egalitarianism.

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Here is the vs. I was talking about.
(1) I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant [diakonon masc form] of the church which is at Cenchrea:
(2) That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Nothing debatable about it. Have a go at it, see if you can make it say anything but what it clearly says.
Here is something I copied from another post.

Der Alte said:

Here is the vs. I was talking about.

Romans 16:1-2​

(1) I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant [diakonon masc form] of the church which is at Cenchrea:
(2) That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

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Notably, Phoebe had continued "business" in Rome, and Paul instructed the Roman church to do what she needed them to do.

ViaCrucis said:

Everyone has different abilities and gifts, regardless of gender. The trend that men hold leadership positions is one of those cultural norms I mentioned.

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Well, the cultural norms today say that a man can identify as a woman. Do you not have any problems with that? And how is that different?

In the Church we remember we have all received the same Spirit and that He is the source of all of our gifts and abilities. As Christians we are called to a life together rooted in peace and mutual love and respect.

The Christian should abhor and eschew power, for the call of Christ to each and every single one of us is to take up our cross and to lay down our lives in imitation of our Lord and God.

"For the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve; and to lay down His life as a ransom for many." Mark 10:45

-CryptoLutheran

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That all has nothing to do with egalitarianism vs complementarianism since I already said I affirm that men and women are equal in their standing before God. The question is whether societal roles are fixed and the differences between men and women are because of nature or whether you think culture progresses throughout time.

Der Alte said:

Here is the vs. I was talking about.

Romans 16:1-2​

(1) I commend unto you Phebe our sister, which is a servant [diakonon masc form] of the church which is at Cenchrea:
(2) That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
Nothing debatable about it. Have a go at it, see if you can make it say anything but what it clearly says.
Here is something I copied from another post.

Deborah was judge over all Israel - just as much as Samson and Gideon were.
Huldah was a prophetess of God, just as much as Jeremiah was. In fact the King's priests chose to consult her, rather than a male prophet, when they wanted a word from the Lord.
Phoebe was a deacon just as much as Stephen was - same word used.
Jesus called an unclean woman "daughter"?
When he spoke to a Samaritan woman and revealed that he was the Messiah, allowed her to go home and tell the men about him?
When he allowed a woman to anoint him with oil; when he allowed another to sit at his feet, in the place reserved for male student Rabbis, and learn from him?
When he went against the norms of society and chose a woman to be the first witness to his resurrection, (women were said to be unreliable witnesses and were not allowed in court.)
When he reminded men that women were created in God's image and they should not just be dismissed with a note of divorce?
When he was confronted with an adulterous woman and refused to condemn her? Yes, he said "do not sin again", but Jewish law said that she should have been stoned.
I choose to follow Jesus' example - how about you?​

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It appears you have not grasped the subtlety of my position.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Well, the cultural norms today say that a man can identify as a woman. Do you not have any problems with that? And how is that different?

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Nah, that's not a cultural norm. Certain sectors are definitely pushing that agenda, but it's not a cultural norm. Not yet.

That all has nothing to do with egalitarianism vs complementarianism since I already said I affirm that men and women are equal in their standing before God. The question is whether societal roles are fixed and the differences between men and women are because of nature or whether you think culture progresses throughout time.

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Some roles are because of nature. Women give birth, for instance. Women menstruate. Women are physically less powerful than equally healthy men. There are definitely psychological differences between men and women.

The question is when and how those differences actually make a woman less capable in a particular role than a man would be (and vice versa), or whether we're just running on cultural tradition.

The apostle Paul stipulated a clear, hard, cold truth for the Body of Christ:

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The question might be, "Did Paul really mean what he said? Was Paul actually serious? Did Paul mean 'in the here and now,' or did he mean 'in the great by-and-by?'"

We can see in scripture that Paul immediately and vigorously strove to eliminate the Jew/Gentile distinction. That was actually relatively low-hanging fruit, because the Roman government didn't that Jews and Gentiles got along...it made their rule easier.

Eliminating slavery was a more difficult problem because the Roman government cared very much if anyone was promoting anything that sounded like doing away with slavery. The Spartacus rebellion (and other slave rebellions) was still fresh in their minds. If Paul openly preached elimination of slavery, the government would have been quick and vicious in wiping out Christianity. So Paul approached the issue of slavery obliquely...but very definitely.

For sure, male/female roles are even more deeply embedded in culture than slavery, but Acts and the Pauline letters are extraordinary, positively extraordinary, given their extremely patriarchal social context in their consistent mention of women being deeply involved in the activity of the early Church. Luke and Paul took obvious pains to mention the activity of women when nobody would have noticed or cared if they'd completely omitted any mention of women at all.

If Luke and Paul had not mentioned a single woman beyond Mary, Mary, Mary, and Martha, nobody in their day would have raised an objection.

But in fact, Paul used women significantly in his ministry, explicitly writing about it, indicating that he was pushing "nor is there male or female" even in his own "here and now" to the greatest extent he could.

RDKirk said:

There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

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This verse does not erase social roles. It only says we are all equal before God.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

This verse does not erase social roles. It only says we are all equal before God.

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You don't think Paul worked to eliminate the distinction between Jews and Gentiles in the Church?

RDKirk said:

You don't think Paul worked to eliminate the distinction between Jews and Gentiles in the Church?

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Depends on how you read scripture. The Messianic Jewish organization One for Israel doesn't seem to think so.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Depends on how you read scripture. The Messianic Jewish organization One for Israel doesn't seem to think so.

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Well, then if Galatians 2 means nothing to you, we can't have a discussion.

RDKirk said:

Well, then if Galatians 2 means nothing to you, we can't have a discussion.

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Why do you think it means nothing to me? For example, some people read Romans 9-11 and believe that to be talking about Jews. Galatians 2 is not the only text in the Bible.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

The Bible is the final authority. That is why will always try and make my argument based on scripture first. If people are more willing to listen to the science of the day over the Word of God, then they have bigger issues.

And I do not believe that there are no cases where women can teach. But when people like Joyce Meyer says God went to 6 other men before coming to her, I'm going to be skeptical of everything else she says.

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Yes, that is elementary. Yet proper biblical interpretation is not based on isolating verses like 1 Timothy 2:12, especially if words have been mistranslated.

What do you think of Deborah the prophetess? Do you think she led Israel without teaching people? What about Huldah the prophetess?
[Jdg 4:4 NIV] Now Deborah, a prophet, the wife of Lappidoth, was leading Israel at that time.

[2Ki 22:14 NIV] 14 Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Akbor, Shaphan and Asaiah went to speak to the prophet Huldah, who was the wife of Shallum son of Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe. She lived in Jerusalem, in the New Quarter.

Is Joyce Meyer your real issue? There are more male teachers that I would pay no attention too.



So you don't see that men and women are equal? What about God's feminine qualities?
What do you do with those?

[Luk 13:34 NIV] "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. ?

[Psa 91:4 NIV] He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge; his faithfulness will be your shield and rampart. ?

[Isa 66:13 NIV] As a mother comforts her child, so will I comfort you; and you will be comforted over Jerusalem." ?

Paul4JC said:

So you don't see that men and women are equal? What about God's feminine qualities?
What do you do with those?

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Where did I say or infer I don't think men and women are equal? Even the post you quoted from me will show I think men and women are equal. That does not mean that generally there are not certain roles men and women fulfill in different ways.

And no, Joyce Meyer is not my main issue. That is just an example of people making up a calling on their life. I'd say the same thing about a person claiming they are a prophet which they dreamed up themselves.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

This verse does not erase social roles. It only says we are all equal before God.

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What social roles?

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

What social roles?

-CryptoLutheran

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Are there no different social roles between men and women?

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Are there no different social roles between men and women?

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Why would there be? Are there different social roles between Jews and Gentiles?

I don't believe in a caste system, and if you believe in the God of the Bible, then neither should you.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

Why would there be?

-CryptoLutheran

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Because men and women are different, which I have already talked about.

equal but different

It is said that men and women are equal but different but where is that implied in the Bible? I want to believe that Scripture says so.

Lady Bug said:

It is said that men and women are equal but different but where is that implied in the Bible? I want to believe that Scripture says so.

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There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.