Does God predestine sin?

Mark Quayle

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If I could have saved 10 people but only saved 5 from a burning fire, I chose not to save the other 5. Call it what you wish.
Being you, and not God, logically no, you simply may not have been able. God, on the other hand, yes, chose not to save, and indeed chose quite a few things besides that concerning them, that the question of double-predestination does not address.

The point of @rwb 's that you object to is man-centered in its presentation; as is, for that matter, the term, "double predestination". It completely ignores THE reason God made those who are ultimately lost. If one admits that God planned for that person to stub his toe, one who thinks from a man-centered mindset, may as well say that God created that person so that he would stub his toe. It's foolishness to say that. Stubbing his toe was indeed predestined, as were the person's decisions that led to stubbing his toe, but stubbing his toe was only a cause (no, I didn't say the only cause, nor first cause) of a chain of events leading to what God made that person for: His Glory, as described in Romans 9, particularly referenced in verses 17 and 22-24.
 
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Clare73

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I emphatically disagree. The Bible isn't the object of our faith,
Contraire. . .

The word of God is most definitely an object of my faith.

Jesus Christ is. The Bible points to Jesus, not the other way around.

As Martin Luther wrote, "It is for Christ's sake that we believe in the Scriptures, but it is not for the
Scriptures' sake that we believe in Christ."
Martin Luther disagrees with you.
 
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Mark Quayle

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And if God lies. . .

Both being irrelevant.
Thank you. Exactly. Both are entirely man-centered questions. God does what he does; who is a mere human being, to question God?
 
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Clare73

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The point is, as originally stated, the death of Christ was God's plan;
according to God's own words the mode of his death was not preordained
-
Acts 4:28 disagrees with you: "They did what your power and will had decided beforehand should happen."
unless one thinks God was toying with words when he stated the possibility of a different outcome (you would not have crucified the Lord of glory). The "types" of the OT are not necessarily prophecies; but we can see their fulfillments in Christ. Knowing the difference is helpful.
 
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Clare73

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If God chose some and did not choose others when they had no say - he chose some for damnation. That is inescapable.
As is Romans 9:18-22.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Negative? Ha. This is an old Calvinist argument that holds no water. A spade is a spade.
And a human is ONLY a human, unable to see from God's point of view, the way things really are. To accuse God of being unable to save anyone is at best ignorant, and to accuse God of "double predestination" is to claim that he had no other primary reason for creating those who are going to the LOF.
 
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Clare73

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Not a rule at all - but just as a cat is identified by its catness, so GOD is identified by HIS goodness which is destroyed by
the assumption HIS Sovereignty overrides HIS goodness...in fact if not in theory.
The assumption is absurd on its face.

God's attributes are not in conflict, they are in complete harmony.

Everything is exercised fully and completely without any diminishment or restraint of any.

This "override" is an absurd notion of the finite "wisdom" of man.
 
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As Romans 9:18-22.
Agreed, and Romans 9:22-24 gives the reason, which is inescapably THE reason he created them. The damnation is only part of that.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Not a rule at all - but just as a cat is identified by its catness, so GOD is identified by HIS goodness which is destroyed by the assumption HIS Sovereignty overrides HIS goodness...in fact if not in theory.
Who says his sovereignty overrides his goodness? Strawman.
 
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That's according to your understanding, not mine. I don't believe double pre-destination is biblical.
This "double predestination" cannot be avoided.
If one predestines some but not all to salvation, then that is likewise a predestination of the rest to damnation.
I view predestination and election from a positive point of view, but you from a negative. God chooses none for damnation, we freely chose condemnation and death when we disobeyed God in the beginning and chose instead to heed the voice of the serpent. The wonderful, loving and amazing part of all of this is "BUT GOD" knowing man created with total autonomy would never choose Him, not even for life ordained a plan in eternity to save a people for Himself, and they would love Him and turn to His Son for eternal life, not by man's will but by the will of God.

John 1:13 (KJV) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
 
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If God chose some and did not choose others when they had no say - he chose some for damnation. That is inescapable.

That's what Calvinism says. But Scripture says that God chose and predestined us in Christ to salvation. Predestination is real and effectual, but it only applies to our election in Christ. Because at the same time we read that God has chosen us (we did not choose Him) out of His free election of grace, He also wills and desires the salvation of all, as Christ died for all, and has objectively rendered all justified.

Scripture says both. But it never says God has predestined any to damnation, that is human contrivance.

This apparent paradox is part of what Lutheran theologians have historically described as the Crux Theologorum, or "The Theologian's Cross". It is a cross in the sense of a burden; the faithful theologian of the cross must, even against reason, confess the paradox and embrace it and allow this burden to remain a burden. As we remain, as the Apostle says in 1 Corinthians 13, seeing through a glass dimly. We don't have all the answers, we can only confess what God has revealed. And there remains many things that are known only as divinely revealed mysteries, and many other things about which we know nothing--and that remains perfectly acceptable.

The Christian faith isn't a reasonable proposition, it is, in fact, a proposition that is offensive to reason (1 Corinthians 1:18-31), for the soulish person cannot understand the things of God for they are Spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Which is precisely why beginning with philosophy ("God is sovereign") rather than with theology ("Christ suffered for the sins of the world") will almost always result in theology of glory instead of true theology, the theology of the cross.

To quote Dr. Luther from his 1518 Heidelberg Disputation,

"19. That person does not deserve to be called a theologian who looks upon the »invisible« things of God as though they were clearly »perceptible in those things which have actually happened« (Rom. 1:20; cf. 1 Cor 1:21-25).

This is apparent in the example of those who were »theologians« and still were called »fools« by the Apostle in Rom. 1:22. Furthermore, the invisible things of God are virtue, godliness, wisdom, justice, goodness, and so forth. The recognition of all these things does not make one worthy or wise.

20. He deserves to be called a theologian, however, who comprehends the visible and manifest things of God seen through suffering and the cross.

The manifest and visible things of God are placed in opposition to the invisible, namely, his human nature, weakness, foolishness. The Apostle in 1 Cor. 1:25 calls them the weakness and folly of God. Because men misused the knowledge of God through works, God wished again to be recognized in suffering, and to condemn »wisdom concerning invisible things« by means of »wisdom concerning visible things«, so that those who did not honor God as manifested in his works should honor him as he is hidden in his suffering ( absconditum in passionibus). As the Apostle says in 1 Cor. 1:21, »For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.« Now it is not sufficient for anyone, and it does him no good to recognize God in his glory and majesty, unless he recognizes him in the humility and shame of the cross. Thus God destroys the wisdom of the wise, as Isa. 45:15 says, »Truly, thou art a God who hidest thyself.«

So, also, in John 14:8, where Philip spoke according to the theology of glory: »Show us the Father.« Christ forthwith set aside his flighty thought about seeing God elsewhere and led him to himself, saying, »Philip, he who has seen me has seen the Father« (John 14:9). For this reason true theology and recognition of God are in the crucified Christ, as it is also stated in John 10 (John 14:6) »No one comes to the Father, but by me.«»I am the door« (John 10:9), and so forth.
" - Heidelberg Disputation, Theses 19-20

Beginning with the proposition of God's sovereignty is engaging in a theology of glory, by speaking of God's invisible power and wisdom and so forth, and comprehending God in His Hiddenness rather than comprehending God in His Revelation, namely Jesus Christ and His suffering and death.

Even the Greek philosophers could say that the Divine was all powerful and sovereign, so also say the Jews and the Muslims and many others. Nothing of importance is said in saying this. But what the Christian believes, as handed down to us from the beginning, is God beheld in the weakness and foolishness of the cross. Jesus Christ shows us God and we only comprehend God in and through Him, for He alone makes the Father known (John 1:18, John 14:6-9, etc).

And in and through Christ we behold God's gracious affection toward sinners in that He, before the foundation of the world, chose and elected us in Jesus Christ to salvation. Not out of His "sovereignty" but out of His unconditional love and kindness toward this whole world of sinners and His enduring and invincible faithfulness toward the whole of creation; for He intends to set all things right so that He is all in all. And He does this through His Son, who came in the likeness of sinful flesh, born of the Virgin Mary, born under the Law.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Mark Quayle

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Creating the serpent (Satan) more subtil then any other creature He created tells us that God knew He would be cunning and crafty with man. No God does not ordain sin, God allows sin to exist or He would not have created the serpent to be cunning and crafty. It was for the purpose of saving a people for Himself that God created the serpent in this way. I've already explained this and see no need to explain it again.
However, God does ordain that sin BE. Which is not at all the same thing as ordaining sin, or more to the point, being the author of sin. He most certainly is not the author of sin, in spite of the constructions of those who want to defeat Calvinism.
 
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Mark Quayle

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This "double predestination" cannot be avoided.
If one predestines some but not all to salvation, then that is likewise a predestination of the rest to damnation.
Agreed, but even the term, "double predestination", is a falsely focused construct of the human-centered mind. God did not make them for the purpose of damnation, in and of itself, but primarily for his glory. If he did not make them for the purpose of demonstrating his glory to the objects of his mercy, he would not have damned them, and indeed, would not have made them at all.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Contraire. . .

The word of God is most definitely an object of my faith.

I don't worship a book, I worship the One about whom that book speaks. The alternative is idolatry.

Martin Luther disagrees with you.

Bold claim to make after I just quoted Luther. Would you care to back that up?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Clare73

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Such verses alluded to are about how HE deals with sinners who need control and direction,
Not in its context of Romans 9:18-21, which is in terms of all mankind.
not the innocent (those who have not yet made a decision about their faith) who 'need' to be allowed to explore their feelings and desires and to learn what GOD hopes for them so that by their free will they can decide to put their faith in HIM as GOD or reject HIM as a liar.
Non-Biblical psycho-babble. . .
Where is it written that the HIS method for our election must be the same as the method for our salvation??
Salvation is the result of election, and is not separate from it (Romans 8:29-30).
In our innocence we had a free will.
Where in Scripture do you find "free will" being an issue about or for anything?
That is a construct nowhere presented in Scripture and imposed on it by the wisdom of man.
As sinners we do not have a free will which became enslaved by evll, nor do we need a free will as all of salvation is outside of our will and predetermined by GOD (I'm not tainted by Arminianism as some are with the idea of a fake limited free will) but...
So you can choose to be sinless in thought, word and deed with your "unlimited" free will?
That's good work if you can get it.
to give pure, real, worship and free praise, our free will must be returned to us as it was before our sinful choice. And I contend that this return was by our rebirth which broke our addictive enslavement to evil. At least I've heard no better idea.
A notion not even used in Scripture has become the end-all and be-all of NT theology. . .gads!

You will know "free will" is returned to you when you can choose to be sinless in thought, word and deed.

Until then, your free will is limited.
 
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The one verse that forms thought in this area is
1 John 1:5 (KJV) [5] This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
If your reasoning has God involved in any form of activity or thought/creation or purpose in darkness you have departed from Scripture to something not of Scripture
"In him" is no darkness, is not the same as using the darkness "outside him" for his own purposes.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Our free will is an absolute necessity.
Aside from the fact that GOD cannot create any evil so all sinfulness proves the free will of the sinner, it is also a fact that true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage by the Bride. GOD is not a Borg willing to have a Stepford wife...

If your assumptions concerning sin and free will are dependent on the logic that "true love and true marriage can be arrived at only by the free will acceptance of the lover and acceptance of the proposal of marriage", then it is not proven, since the there have been many arranged and/or forced marriages that became true love and true marriage.

This implies that GOD would never not save anyone who could be saved to become HIS Bride, not for any reason. No one is in hell who can be saved by any IF in reality... This also implies that only those who chose to eternally reject HIM as GOD and husband by a deep desire not to be involved in HIS plan would ever be passed over for entry into the marriage because they have a right to their free will decisions to choose such a path.
You seem to think that his Bride is a haphazard collection of possibles. Not so.

It implies that everyone ever created in HIS image, ie, able to be a proper Bride for HIM, was created perfectly capable and able to become HIS bride, not held back by any imperfection or lack of acceptance by HIM.
He does not have many Brides. Only one. And she is of a very specifically designed construction.

By their coming into being everyone must have been within HIS plan, not separated from HIM by anything until they decide by their informed free will to reject HIM and HIS plan. HE cannot marry an evil person so why would HE create by any means, any system at all, evil people? It is impossible.
Once again we see the tendency of man to generalize God's specific plan for the ages, and to particularize God's general command.
 
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Clare73

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Contraire. . .
The word of God is most definitely an object of my faith.
Martin Luther disagrees with you.
I don't worship a book, I worship the One about whom that book speaks. The alternative is idolatry.

Bold claim to make after I just quoted Luther. Would you care to back that up?

-CryptoLutheran
I emphatically disagree. The Bible isn't the object of our faith, Jesus Christ is. The Bible points to Jesus, not the other way around.

As Martin Luther wrote, "It is for Christ's sake that we believe in the Scriptures, but it is not for the
Scriptures' sake that we believe in Christ."

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BNR32FAN

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Since God is sovereign and everything created is for a purpose (John 1:3, Proverbs 16:4, Colossians 1:16, Romans 9:18) according to his will and for his pleasure (Psalms 115:3, Job 42:2, Proverbs 16:9, Matthew 26:39) and God knows all things and everything that will ever happen. (Isaiah 46:9-10)

God is the author (Isaiah 45:7) does he use sin of the righteous to bring us closer to him? (Romans 8:28) we know that "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." John 6:37 would this mean that God predetermines/predestines sin as well according to his will? (Genesis 50:20)

According to John 15:1-7 not all who came to Christ will not be cast out. The word translated to “comes” or “cometh” in John 6:37 is only used in the present and imperfect tense meaning only those who are presently or continuously coming to Christ will not be cast out. John 15:2 says every branch in Christ that doesn’t bear fruit will be cut off from the vine/Christ.
 
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What part of "It is for Christ's sake that we believe the Scriptures, it is not for the Scripture's sake that we believe in Christ" has you confused?

-CryptoLutheran
 
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