THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH IS BREAKING APART Christians must reclaim Jesus from his church

childeye 2 · Mar 26, 2022

Aldebaran said:
Politicians are the ones who create the laws we have. Laws against murder won't legislate hate from anyone's heart, but it usually serves as a deterrent against people committing murder. Same goes for stealing. It's a sin, and there are penalties for it. Remove the penalties and the theft rates go up. Ask business owners in California if you don't believe me.
So, would you be just as content with no laws or law enforcement just because laws don't remove sin from peoples' hearts?

I agree with you that the thought of being punished for breaking the law is meant to serve as a deterrent. However, I would add that the laws themselves can sometimes be unjust in over-reach, and when implemented recklessly can inflict greater harm to society than they actually prevent.

But I digress. I'm actually talking about the blindness of the type of hypocrisy described in the Pharisees. Politicians who put on a show of righteousness by promising to be tough on crime, even counting it as weakness to show compassion to criminals. For example, I notice that Jesus said that the sinners needed a doctor, which necessarily means that the Spirit of Christ sympathizes with the sinner and sees the condition of sin as something that needs to be healed. Whereas the Pharisee type speak as if doing good in God's eyes is all about legalism, and yet the weightier matters of mercy and understanding which God also desires that they would do, they do not do.

There are examples of this in scripture. The prostitute had many sins and the Pharisee was loathe to even touch her, yet she was forgiven because her love was great. It was the Samaritan that actually did God's will and loved his neighbor when the Levite and the priest had walked on by.

It seems to me that authoritarianism should be a last resort, reserved for those who are either wantonly ignorant or a danger to society. In regards to the issue of ignorance, I will note that God shows mercy to the merciful and He will judge us by what measure we use to judge others. So to be clear, the issue to me is the hypocrisy of those who want to punish sinners and believe that this is what God desires. And that's why I believe it's a display of the Pharisee type of hypocrisy that thinks and speaks as if a person is encouraging sin if they don't support stricter punishment as the solution.

FireDragon76 · Mar 26, 2022

Aldebaran said:
Doing nothing while evil reigns, especially when there is something you could do to stop it, or at least slow it down, is the same as giving approval to it.

That's completely unreasonable. One is merely permitting something to happen ,but that's not the same as approval.

They could figure that since they aren't the ones doing the destruction, it's not their fault it's happening. But instead, they're fighting back and winning. It's not removing the sin from the Russian soldiers' hearts (or from Putin's), but it is stopping the evil and destruction, and is saving lives.

Are you really comparing this to warfare? That's really inappropriate. In a liberal democracy, people are supposed to discuss and debate different ideas, to influence others through persuasion, not resort to conflict.

Rachel20 · Mar 26, 2022

Opdrey said:
Meanwhile the Left ALWAYS votes for better social safety nets and equitable access to things like healthcare. While the Right ALWAYS votes against those things.

"equitable access to things like healthcare" - except for anti-vaxxers, they should be denied.

Rachel20 · Mar 26, 2022

Opdrey said:
If their conscience says that they need more guns for themselves

You mean if your conscience allows it. The left is allowing it in Ukraine.

ottawak · Mar 26, 2022

Rachel20 said:
You mean if your conscience allows it. The left is allowing it in Ukraine.

Who are fighting actual armed enemies, not just preparing themselves to fight off an imaginary left wing atheistic tyranny

Rachel20 · Mar 26, 2022

ottawak said:
Who are fighting actual armed enemies, not just preparing themselves to fight off an imaginary left wing atheistic tyranny

At least now you know the purpose of the 2nd amendment, that's a good step. BTW there are videos of people in Ukraine who wished they'd learned how to use firearms long before the "armed enemies" were at their doorsteps.

ottawak · Mar 26, 2022

Rachel20 said:
At least now you know the purpose of the 2nd amendment, that's a good step. BTW there are videos of people in Ukraine who wished they'd learned how to use firearms long before the "armed enemies" were at their doorsteps.

That's OK. The only "armed enemies" we really have to fear in this country are the Christian Right themselves and most of them already know how to use firearms.

Rachel20 · Mar 26, 2022

ottawak said:
That's OK. The only "armed enemies" we really have to fear in this country are the Christian Right themselves and most of them already know how to use firearms.

So much for "brotherly love". I'll end my 2-cents with the things I disagreed with on "my side" :

1. I'm for healthcare for all, but not forced (or denied) healthcare, and certainly not the kind you get in county or VA hospitals
2. I'm for letting the immigrants in, because I have compassion on those trying to escape violence and oppression in their own countries
3. I'm for increases in the minimum wage
4. I'm tired of the talk of "entitlements" when the big corps & banks are bailed out all the time.

ottawak · Mar 26, 2022

Rachel20 said:
So much for "brotherly love". I'll end my 2-cents with the things I disagreed with on "my side" :

1. I'm for healthcare for all, but not forced (or denied) healthcare, and certainly not the kind you get in county or VA hospitals
2. I'm for letting the immigrants in, because I have compassion on those trying to escape violence and oppression in their own countries
3. I'm for increases in the minimum wage
4. I'm tired of the talk of "entitlements" when the big corps & banks are bailed out all the time.

All of them "Progressive" policies. So you see it is possible to be a Christian and advocate for progressive policies at the same time. Or, to put it another way, not all Christians, not even all relatively (politically) conservative Christians, are part of the Christian Right and submissive to their rigid orthodoxy.

Rachel20 · Mar 26, 2022

ottawak said:
All of them "Progressive" policies. So you see it is possible to be a Christian and advocate for progressive policies at the same time. Or, to put it another way, not all Christians, not even all relatively (politically) conservative Christians, are part of the Christian Right and submissive to their rigid orthodoxy.

I wish there was a third party that combined the best of the left and right. Both have become so extreme that neither really represents me. But I see hate and hypocrisy on both sides, and anyone who denies that is just a party cheer-leader for their own side and completely missed the point of the OP imo

hedrick · Mar 26, 2022

Rachel20 said:
I wish there was a third party that combined the best of the left and right. Both have become so extreme that neither really represents me. But I see hate and hypocrisy on both sides, and anyone who denies that is just a party cheer-leader for their own side and completely missed the point of the OP imo

There are centrist people in both parties. For the moment Republicans seem to be emphasizing the worse elements. I hope that won’t last.

Aldebaran · Mar 26, 2022

Opdrey said:
I just love how you zero in on the things that DON'T include Bible quotes. Just curious, that's all.

One of the things I value from the truly pious is their ability to lure someone into actually RESPONDING THROUGHTFULLY to their points so they can turn around and treat them like trash by simply ignoring it.

It's a true testament to one's witness for God that one can treat others in a way they clearly want to be treated themselves.

My apologies for disappointing you by actually responding with some thought to your post. Clearly you don't want people to respect your points and I failed to live up to your needs.

Again, my apologies.

Luke 6:31

I know you haven't been here for very long, but you need to realize that discussions on these boards aren't always linear.

Aldebaran · Mar 26, 2022

childeye 2 said:
I agree with you that the thought of being punished for breaking the law is meant to serve as a deterrent. However, I would add that the laws themselves can sometimes be unjust in over-reach, and when implemented recklessly can inflict greater harm to society than they actually prevent.

But I digress. I'm actually talking about the blindness of the type of hypocrisy described in the Pharisees. Politicians who put on a show of righteousness by promising to be tough on crime, even counting it as weakness to show compassion to criminals. For example, I notice that Jesus said that the sinners needed a doctor, which necessarily means that the Spirit of Christ sympathizes with the sinner and sees the condition of sin as something that needs to be healed. Whereas the Pharisee type speak as if doing good in God's eyes is all about legalism, and yet the weightier matters of mercy and understanding which God also desires that they would do, they do not do.

There are examples of this in scripture. The prostitute had many sins and the Pharisee was loathe to even touch her, yet she was forgiven because her love was great. It was the Samaritan that actually did God's will and loved his neighbor when the Levite and the priest had walked on by.

It seems to me that authoritarianism should be a last resort, reserved for those who are either wantonly ignorant or a danger to society. In regards to the issue of ignorance, I will note that God shows mercy to the merciful and He will judge us by what measure we use to judge others. So to be clear, the issue to me is the hypocrisy of those who want to punish sinners and believe that this is what God desires. And that's why I believe it's a display of the Pharisee type of hypocrisy that thinks and speaks as if a person is encouraging sin if they don't support stricter punishment as the solution.

Regarding your last paragraph--I don't see the goal of politicians to be the punishing of sinners, but more of a maintaining of law and order. If a guy goes into a Walgreens and opens up a trash bag and just loads it up with merchandise and walks out, the police would be called because he just robbed the place which is a loss to the owner, and needs to be held accountable. If he isn't, then it sends a message to society that it's ok to just steal whatever you want without consequence. Society wouldn't hold up very well if that was allowed. However, I wouldn't call the police and say, "A guy just committed a sin and I need an officer to punish him for being a sinner." That's not the basis the law operates on. At the same time, the law and scripture both agree that theft is wrong. Republicans are in favor of law and order, and therefore are in agreement with scripture in that way.

Aldebaran · Mar 26, 2022

ottawak said:
That's OK. The only "armed enemies" we really have to fear in this country are the Christian Right themselves and most of them already know how to use firearms.

So now you see us as armed enemies to be feared?

ottawak · Mar 26, 2022

Aldebaran said:
So now you see us as armed enemies to be feared?

I always have. People with a weak grip on reality (Japanese space lasers, mind control nanobots in the Covid vaccine, stolen elections, etc.) and guns should always be feared.

Sketcher · Mar 26, 2022

ViaCrucis said:
It was about that same time that I had an experience of visiting a random non-denominational church (my father invited me to visit with him since we both were looking for churches at the time). It happened to be a 4th of July weekend. I expected some patriotic stuff, what I didn't expect was that they'd remove all crosses and religious symbols and replace them with giant American flags. No cross, but a flag in the back. And draped over the altar, another flag. Flags everywhere. The service started not with an opening hymn or even praise and worship song, but the Star Spangled Banner. No Christian hymns were sung, not even any contemporary praise and worship music. It was ONLY American patriotic songs.

I felt pretty gross already. But then between "worship" and the "sermon" there was a "prayer"--what kind of prayer? A prayer about how great America is and that this nation is blessed by God above all others. Then the sermon. Guess what the sermon was about? If you guessed it was about Jesus, or about His death and resurrection, or about God's love, or even if it was anything about the Bible--you'd be mistaken.

I'll be honest, after about 10 minutes into the 40+ so minute sermon I got up and walked out into the church parking lot. I don't know if I had ever been so disgusted by so much sacrilege at once. It's entirely possible that after I left then suddenly Jesus' name got mentioned. But for the entire time I was at the church that morning, I never once heard the name of Jesus mentioned. Not once was the Gospel even so much as hinted at.

My dad stayed for the whole thing. He liked it. In fact he didn't understand why it bothered me at all. I asked him if he even heard them mention Jesus once. He said he wasn't sure. I tried my best to explain why what I just experienced was so grotesque--but he really didn't understand. So I remember asking him directly: "Which is more sacred, the cross or the American flag?" And my dad said he saw both as equally sacred.

I think that may have been, in part, the straw that broke the camel's back for me. I was horrified, and confused why my own father--the man responsible for raising me in my Christian faith--could stand there and say that nothing wrong happened, and that a national flag could even be remotely as sacred as the very sign and symbol of our eternal salvation by the death and resurrection of the Son of God. I was speechless, I was sad.

But I also realized I can't be part of that kind of religion. And I never want to have any part in it.

-CryptoLutheran

FWIW, I have never been to a service like that on July 4 or otherwise, and I would agree that is excessive.

WolfGate · Mar 26, 2022

It needs to break apart. Tear it down to build it back up to focusing on Christ.

Sketcher · Mar 26, 2022

ottawak said:
I always have. People with a weak grip on reality (Japanese space lasers, mind control nanobots in the Covid vaccine, stolen elections, etc.) and guns should always be feared.

So, do you think the only Good Christians will agree with you, and never vote Republican?

Aldebaran · Mar 26, 2022

ottawak said:
I always have. People with a weak grip on reality (Japanese space lasers, mind control nanobots in the Covid vaccine, stolen elections, etc.) and guns should always be feared.

Well, try fearing God instead. That's the beginning of wisdom.

Aldebaran · Mar 26, 2022

WolfGate said:
It needs to break apart. Tear it down to build it back up to focusing on Christ.

That's basically a "Great Reset" for the church. The world is about to do that, and it won't be pretty. Christ Himself will deal with the church, which is His bride whom He loves and died for. If we tear down and build it up ourselves, it would just end up no better than it is now, plus it would probably have even more of the world inserted into it to make the majority happy.

THE EVANGELICAL CHURCH IS BREAKING APART Christians must reclaim Jesus from his church

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