Premillennialism ignores the tenses in the original Greek in order to sustain its teaching

Timtofly

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Do you have a problem reading what I write or are you deliberately trying to misrepresent? The redeemed on earth are reigning on earth in life (Rom 5:17) through to Satan's little season. There will be persecution on God's people before the general resurrection and GWT. That does not negate the dead in Christ reigning with Christ in heaven now.
You did not answer the questions.

And billions of sinners just pop out of no where and attack heaven? Where are your billions of Satan worshippers, which actually have seen Satan and know who he is?

Also where are the millions of beheaded people avoiding the mark prior to the Cross?
 
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sovereigngrace

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You did not answer the questions.

And billions of sinners just pop out of no where and attack heaven? Where are your billions of Satan worshippers, which actually have seen Satan and know who he is?

Also where are the millions of beheaded people avoiding the mark prior to the Cross?

Amils believe the beast and his mark have been on the go from the beginning. Cain was the first reprobate. The Bible talks about the mark of Cain. This is a spiritual mark of reprobation.

Multitudes have been martyred for the faith. They now reign in heaven since the cross. They will not be attacked because Satan and the wicked will never have access the heaven. He can only attack the elect on earth. They will surround the saints for a little season prior to the second coming.
 
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DavidPT

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Amils believe the beast and his mark have been on the go from the beginning. Cain was the first reprobate. The Bible talks about the mark of Cain. This is a spiritual mark of reprobation.

I recall you mentioning this in the past, and I still see it as stretching it if connecting this with Cain's mark somehow. Let's look at that mark then see why he got that mark to begin with and who gave him that mark, then let's compare to the mark recorded in Revelation 13.

Genesis 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Cain was sentenced to be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth, which might mean there could be a bounty on his head. Verse 14 tends to prove that.

What does the LORD then do? He set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. And this mark apparently made it clear somehow to those seeking to slay Cain, that by them doing so, vengeance shall be taken on that person sevenfold.

Now let's look at the mark recorded in Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

In Genesis 4 who caused Cain to have a mark? The LORD. For what reason? For protection involving a bounty on his head.

In Revelation 13 who causes all, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads. The 2nd beast, the beast that comes up out of the earth, the beast that performs false wonders. Was that beast around when Cain was? Did that beast cause Cain to receive a mark in his right hand, or in his forehead, and without this mark he was unable to buy and sell?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I recall you mentioning this in the past, and I still see it as stretching it if connecting this with Cain's mark somehow. Let's look at that mark then see why he got that mark to begin with and who gave him that mark, then let's compare to the mark recorded in Revelation 13.

Genesis 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Cain was sentenced to be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth, which might mean there could be a bounty on his head. Verse 14 tends to prove that.

What does the LORD then do? He set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. And this mark apparently made it clear somehow to those seeking to slay Cain, that by them doing so, vengeance shall be taken on that person sevenfold.

Now let's look at the mark recorded in Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

In Genesis 4 who caused Cain to have a mark? The LORD. For what reason? For protection involving a bounty on his head.

In Revelation 13 who causes all, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads. The 2nd beast, the beast that comes up out of the earth, the beast that performs false wonders. Was that beast around when Cain was? Did that beast cause Cain to receive a mark in his right hand, or in his forehead, and without this mark he was unable to buy and sell?

It is a spiritual mark. It has been there from the beginning. It relates to reprobation. All those who reject God’s way and go their own way end up with this mark. This mark sets apart the reprobate from the righteous. Genesis 4:15 tells us that “the LORD set a mark upon Cain.” This was Satan's first convert to populate Hades.

Revelation 13:8-9, 15-17 says, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If any man have an ear, let him hear ... And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.”

Revelation 14:9-12 describes the awful destiny for all those who receive Satan’s mark, saying, “if any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: And they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

The fact that the converse company to the beast’s devotees are described as being Christ’s from the “foundation of the world” (Revelation 17:8), or, the elect of God of all ages (past, present and future), would confirm that the beast’s adherents relate to all those that reject Christ in this life and therefore end up in hell. It is they that commit the unpardonable sin in this life – namely stubborn, continuous and willful rejection of the convicting promptings of the Spirit of God. The mark of the beast is the devil’s invisible spiritual sign of ownership on the damned. It confirms a man’s final rejection of Christ and his eternal allegiance to Satan. These Christ-rejecters have received their final stamp from Satan signifying his eternal ownership. Just like slaves were once marked by their owners in olden times, so these spiritual slaves are eternally marked by their owner Satan. It is this company that are eternally doomed.

Jesus warned in Matthew 12:31-32, “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

The mark of the beast has to be the mark of reprobation that ensures a man will never see heaven. Men are obviously either saved or unsaved – but not all unsaved men have yet taken this mark of reprobation (mark of the beast). Many will eventually be saved at some future juncture. The message for them is to repent lest they receive this spiritual mark and spend eternity under the wrath of God as a consequence. The Lord is still evidently in the saving business. However, when men go over a line of disobedience (set by God) they will never again be saved.

While it seems proper to understand the mark of the beast as a spiritual brand it would be wrong to relate it generally to all who are unregenerate. It is more than a sign of or on the unsaved. It is something greater than that because all who receive it are damned for all eternity. They can never be saved. It has to be the sign of all those that have went over the line of reprobation. If someone does not repent of their fallen state then this leads to ultimate reprobation and Satan final stamp of eternal damnation. I believe election is in eternity, reprobation is in time.

The beast’s adherents that carry his mark certainly commit this awful irreversible unpardonable sin and are therefore separated forever from the presence of God and are eternally punished. It must be they, then, that are in view, whom the Holy Spirit identifies admire and marvel at the beast and who subsequently carry the beast’s spiritual mark. It is the wicked of all ages (past, present and future) who throughout their earthly sojourn reject Christ that finally succumb to this awful irreversible stamp of reprobation. If the mark of the beast isn’t the mark of reprobation on a man’s life then it is interesting that it does the exact same thing. It guarantees him eternal punishment with the devil and his angels. It offers him no way out or no option of backtracking. It is final and eternal.

In short, those that carry the mark of the beast speak of the full company of the unsaved that commit the unpardonable in this life – “whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.” As a result of their rebellion they end up damned and doomed in a Christless hell. The antithesis company to this is the elect of God whom the Father “hath chosen … in him [Christ] before the foundation of the world” (Ephesians 1:4) and whose names were “written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.” An interesting fact that should not be overlooked in our examination is the fact that those individuals that are written in the “book of life from the foundation of the world” (namely the elect of God) are the only ones that withhold their adoration and affections from the beast. Significantly, those incorporated within this great favoured number include not only the current believers that have trusted in Christ but also all those that will eventually come unto the Lord in salvation. After all, they too have their names “written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.”

Those that “receive” this awful mark (regardless of how men understand it) are damned and doomed for time and for eternity. Their future is hopeless and beyond return. They face a lost eternity with the devil and his angels. Reprobation cannot be undone, just like the mark of the beast. There is no example in Scripture of this final mark of damnation being removed or reversed. Those that receive it have sadly crossed a line of opportunity and of no return. God has finally given them up in their vain imaginations by stamping their foreheads (or their minds) and their right hand representing their actions. The right hand and the forehead refer to the ungodly beliefs and behaviour of the Christ-rejecter.

Romans 1: 18-32 tells us, “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”

How you think will determine what you do. If your mind is reprobate so also will your actions be. The symbolism seems to contemplate the ability to think and the ability to do. It is a matter of belief and action. The mark is a representation of those who have yielded their minds and bodies into the service of the beast, of those who accept the teachings and obey the commands of the beast; they worship the beast.

This damned company can never be saved. They are eternally excluded from the Lamb’s book of life. We should note, reprobation is always seen to be in time, whereas election is always in eternity. The wicked expressly "receive" this mark in life after years of continuous and stubborn rebellion.

Our thesis is supported by the influence attributed to the “mystery of iniquity,” “that man of sin,” “the son of perdition,” and “that Wicked” in

2 Thessalonians 2:1-13: “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth.”

What about the extent of his influence? What type of entity could possibly be “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10)? In fact: who are “them that perish”?

This description is so watertight, broad and inclusive that it shows us that it relates to all the eternally damned. No one could surely underestimate the power and influence of this entity. Anyone that takes a literal reading of Scripture could not deny this. The possession of this wicked entity is so damaging that it causes them to reject the truth and be damned for all eternity.

This text tells us that those who have “the mystery of iniquity” are damned “for all eternity because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). This, in turn, results in God sends “them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie” (2 Thessalonians 2:11). Here is the mark of reprobation! Here is the mark of the beast! What results is unthinkable: “they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness” (2 Thess 2:12).

The mystery of iniquity must therefore be a spirit. This evil spirit dwells “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). This correlates with the longevity, characteristics and influence that are attributed to the beast. His influence is wholesale on all those that do not make it to heaven. Paul seems to agree with John in his description of this being, repeating the same truth.

It is clear that a literal human cannot physically be literally “in them that perish” (2 Thessalonians 2:10). No evil human is in every single unsaved person. Only a spirit can do that.
 
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Timtofly

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Amils believe the beast and his mark have been on the go from the beginning. Cain was the first reprobate. The Bible talks about the mark of Cain. This is a spiritual mark of reprobation.

Multitudes has been martyred for the faith. They now reign in heaven since the cross. They will be attacked because Satan and the wicked will never have access the heaven. He can only attack the elect on earth. They will surround the saints for a little season prior to the second coming.
The reign in Revelation 20 is on earth not in heaven. Those on earth reigning never die. You said they start out in heaven but end up on earth?

You literally do not believe there was a resurrection of those beheaded to live forever and rule on earth.

You literally believe that when Satan attacks the camp of the saints it triggers the Second Coming.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The reign in Revelation 20 is on earth not in heaven.

Who said otherwise?

Those on earth reigning never die.

According to what you have been taught, not Revelation 20.

You said they start out in heaven but end up on earth?

When did I say that?

You literally do not believe there was a resurrection of those beheaded to live forever and rule on earth.

When did I say that?

You literally believe that when Satan attacks the camp of the saints it triggers the Second Coming.

And?
 
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Timtofly

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I recall you mentioning this in the past, and I still see it as stretching it if connecting this with Cain's mark somehow. Let's look at that mark then see why he got that mark to begin with and who gave him that mark, then let's compare to the mark recorded in Revelation 13.

Genesis 4:8 And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.
13 And Cain said unto the LORD, My punishment is greater than I can bear.
14 Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth; and from thy face shall I be hid; and I shall be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth; and it shall come to pass, that every one that findeth me shall slay me.
15 And the LORD said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the LORD set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Cain was sentenced to be a fugitive and a vagabond in the earth, which might mean there could be a bounty on his head. Verse 14 tends to prove that.

What does the LORD then do? He set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. And this mark apparently made it clear somehow to those seeking to slay Cain, that by them doing so, vengeance shall be taken on that person sevenfold.

Now let's look at the mark recorded in Revelation 13.

Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

In Genesis 4 who caused Cain to have a mark? The LORD. For what reason? For protection involving a bounty on his head.

In Revelation 13 who causes all, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads. The 2nd beast, the beast that comes up out of the earth, the beast that performs false wonders. Was that beast around when Cain was? Did that beast cause Cain to receive a mark in his right hand, or in his forehead, and without this mark he was unable to buy and sell?
I agree with the point the mark was for Cain's protection. I doubt you will find many who agree to that point.

I do not take the first four chapters of Genesis as being chronological in order. They are not recap, but they overlap each other. Definitely not recap like is claimed about Revelation.

God implies that Abel and Cain were still in the Garden. Abel was still using the alter set up by God. Cain had to leave the Garden and God's presence. This implies that Cain and Abel were born before Adam disobeyed God. That is why God implies birth would be different. Eve already experienced two births prior to sin. After sin Seth would be a different birth.

"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Genesis 4 starts out at a time prior to sin, like Revelation 12 goes back to when the woman gave birth to a man child. Both births needed to explain the narrative. Revelation 12 is not chronological to Revelation 11, but starts out at an earlier point in history. Genesis 4 is not chronological to Genesis 3, but starts out in history prior to sin. They both use the same literary format in the narrative. So neither are recap. They just overlap historically.

God talked and communicated with Cain just like He did with Adam. If Cain was a wicked sinner, why would God be having conversations with Cain? In fact God pointed out, "sin was at the door" God cast Adam and Eve out to keep sin outside of the Garden. Cain and Abel were still inside, and sin was outside with Adam and Eve.

Most interpretations just symbolize this all away, to claim it literally did not happen. So Cain only symbolically killed Abel, if it is all just symbolic? Perhaps Cain and Abel never existed at all? How can people chery pick their symbolism?

This also points out that even glorified sons of God still on earth, sacrificed animals. Not to maintain their salvation, but because it was pleasing to God. If there is a future temple and sacrifices in the 1000 year reign, it is not to maintain their salvation. It is just pleasing to God. Those in Egypt who refuse to come up would be like Cain who refused to trade with Abel, but wanted to offer God his veggies.

BTW, God never called the sacrifice of veggies a sin.

"But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

God had more respect for Abel, which made Cain jealous. God did not reject Cain's veggies, He just had respect for Abel's offering. Sin happened when Cain killed Abel. But God did not strip Cain of his glorified body. God did not sentence Cain to death. I think the mark was: that part of his glorified body, allowed others to see Cains physical body, to point out sin had tainted that glorified part.

The symbolism of a "robe of white" would indicate there were "flaws" in that "robe". The robe was marked to indicate God did curse Cain, but did not totally condemn him to death. It had to do with the eyes and ears. Having eyes to see and ears to hear has been an ongoing warning concept throughout Scripture.
 
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Timtofly

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According to what you have been taught, not Revelation 20.
No one "teaches" they never die.

That is understood from the text.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

This verse does not say, "shall reign with him until they physically die in 70 years".

You have to change the text to teach your eschatological bias. So you learn from your teachers or you teach something other than what the text says. Otherwise you have a dead resurrection, that only gives you a limited amount of time and then you are dead again.

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is eternal. No going back to a state of death ever. Those souls died, they were judged, they were given eternal life. They could never die again during those 1,000 years. It is appointed unto man, once to die, and after this the judgment. They experienced both the death, and the judgment. All they have left is to live for those 1,000 years.

Or an indefinite amount of time according to Amil. So literally, they have been living on earth with Jesus, reigning from that camp of the saints, since the Cross, per Amil. They can never physically die again, nor be judged again. Any other scenario would contradict the text in Revelation 20:4-6 and Hebrews 9:27.
 
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Timtofly

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When did I say that?
I bolded your text:


"Multitudes has been martyred for the faith. They now reign in heaven since the cross. They will be attacked because Satan and the wicked will never have access the heaven. He can only attack the elect on earth. They will surround the saints for a little season prior to the second coming."

You start out they are in heaven, but can only be attacked on earth.

Revelation 20 says those resurrected in verse 4 are the same attacked in verse 9. They reign on earth for 1,000 years, then attacked after the 1,000 years. Where in the chapter is there a change in scenario or thought. The chapter is about the 1,000 years. Not two separate time periods. Even your alledged wicked sinners by your own imagined point, live during the same 1,000 years, unless you are going to withdraw that point, and stop using it.
 
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sovereigngrace

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No one "teaches" they never die.

That is understood from the text.

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

This verse does not say, "shall reign with him until they physically die in 70 years".

You have to change the text to teach your eschatological bias. So you learn from your teachers or you teach something other than what the text says. Otherwise you have a dead resurrection, that only gives you a limited amount of time and then you are dead again.

The resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is eternal. No going back to a state of death ever. Those souls died, they were judged, they were given eternal life. They could never die again during those 1,000 years. It is appointed unto man, once to die, and after this the judgment. They experienced both the death, and the judgment. All they have left is to live for those 1,000 years.

Or an indefinite amount of time according to Amil. So literally, they have been living on earth with Jesus, reigning from that camp of the saints, since the Cross, per Amil. They can never physically die again, nor be judged again. Any other scenario would contradict the text in Revelation 20:4-6 and Hebrews 9:27.

The Op (which you refuse to address) refutes this post.
 
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sovereigngrace

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I bolded your text:


"Multitudes has been martyred for the faith. They now reign in heaven since the cross. They will be attacked because Satan and the wicked will never have access the heaven. He can only attack the elect on earth. They will surround the saints for a little season prior to the second coming."

You start out they are in heaven, but can only be attacked on earth.

Revelation 20 says those resurrected in verse 4 are the same attacked in verse 9. They reign on earth for 1,000 years, then attacked after the 1,000 years. Where in the chapter is there a change in scenario or thought. The chapter is about the 1,000 years. Not two separate time periods. Even your alledged wicked sinners by your own imagined point, live during the same 1,000 years, unless you are going to withdraw that point, and stop using it.

Quote the Scripture instead of misinterpreting it.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Time of the end little horn person > becomes the prince who shall come > becomes the Antichrist >

becomes the revealed man of sin > becomes the beast
John said the beast "was" already before he wrote the book of Revelation (Revelation 17:8). So, why do you seem to think that the beast only exists in the future? What do you think John meant when he said the beast "was"?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
 
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Douggg

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John said the beast "was" already before he wrote the book of Revelation (Revelation 17:8). So, why do you seem to think that the beast only exists in the future? What do you think John meant when he said the beast "was"?

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Revelation 17:8 is about the mystery of the scarlet beast (Satan) that the woman was riding. From what the angel in Revelation 17:7 said, as a setup to understand Revelation 17:8.

As it turns out, Revelation 17:8 is about two individuals that Satan uses.

In 17:8a.... it is talking about the garden of eden serpent "beast". Who "was" alive. But "is not"...died. And now is a disembodied spirit in the bottomless pit.... to come out, when Satan is cast down to earth, in Revelation 9:1, tossed the key to the bottomless pit, and opens it.

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition

In 17:8b.... it is talking about the end time person - the little horn, who eventually becomes the "beast' end times dictator of the EU and world.

:and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

__________________________________________

So when the end times person, who get his power from Satan, is killed and brought back to life... the disembodied spirit of the garden of eden serpent will possess him (the end times person), in effect a union of evil.

Some people think differently, and that Revelation 17:8 is about the resurrection of some ancient (to us) person who will be resurrected and people will be dumbfounded by his appearance. Maybe like a Caesar coming out of the grave.

What do you think about Revelation 17:8? Who is the beast(s) ?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I bolded your text:


"Multitudes has been martyred for the faith. They now reign in heaven since the cross. They will be attacked because Satan and the wicked will never have access the heaven. He can only attack the elect on earth. They will surround the saints for a little season prior to the second coming."

You start out they are in heaven, but can only be attacked on earth.

Revelation 20 says those resurrected in verse 4 are the same attacked in verse 9. They reign on earth for 1,000 years, then attacked after the 1,000 years. Where in the chapter is there a change in scenario or thought. The chapter is about the 1,000 years. Not two separate time periods. Even your alledged wicked sinners by your own imagined point, live during the same 1,000 years, unless you are going to withdraw that point, and stop using it.

I am sure you knew i made a typo. It should have read:

Multitudes have been martyred for the faith. They now reign in heaven since the cross. They will not be attacked because Satan and the wicked will never have access the heaven. He can only attack the elect on earth. They will surround the saints for a little season prior to the second coming.
 
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Timtofly

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Quote the Scripture instead of misinterpreting it.
I was pointing out your own post. You did not quote any Scripture to make your point. You start out in heaven and end up on earth. Why?

So far you have claimed the dead are burried on earth and need to be raised on earth. I keep pointing out the dead are not in their graves, but currently in Paradise with physical bodies. So point out why a resurrection has to take place on earth every where but in Revelation 20:4.

Where do these souls come from and go to? Why are they not the camp of saints at the end? If those in verse 4 are not those in verse 9, why? Why does no one in this chapter rule on earth for 1,000 years?

Are these verses just for naught:

"and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

If a person is given physical life, why would earth be the wrong place to live that physical life? Do these verses claim they are glorified? Do you claim they are glorified? I do not claim they are glorified.

If they live for 1,000 years how many times do they die and be resurrected to get to the end of those 1,000 years. You avoid all these points for some reason. You claim they are bodiless souls and not even living. A physical body is living. A resurrection is to a physical body. A resurrection is not a soul in the state of separation from a body or spirit. A resurrection is when a soul has at the least a physical body. A physically dead person means they need a physical resurrection. A soul in Christ is not a resurrection. It is a soul in Christ without a body waiting for a resurrection. Have you changed the definition of a resurrection?
 
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sovereigngrace

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I understand the OP refutes Scripture. Probably not a good habit to pick up and keep doing.

Stop ducking around the biblical evidence.

Where does Scripture teach resurrected beings procreate?
 
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Timtofly

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I am sure you knew i made a typo. It should have read:

Multitudes have been martyred for the faith. They now reign in heaven since the cross. They will not be attacked because Satan and the wicked will never have access the heaven. He can only attack the elect on earth. They will surround the saints for a little season prior to the second coming.
You are still missing the point of a resurrection. A soul reigning with Christ is not a resurrection. I have no argument about that.

In fact since the Cross all have had a resurrection and have physical bodies. So you deny a resurrection, but yet claim the resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is only for Christ, and has nothing to do with martyrs, because souls in heaven now are against your definition of the biblical resurrection.

When I claim they are resurrected with physical bodies, you call that nonsense. Yet Revelation 20:4 is about their resurrection, not the resurrection of Christ. So according to you they have not been resurrected, only Christ has been ressurected, and they are just souls waiting for a resurrection. That is not even symbolically stated any where in Revelation 20. They were given the first resurrection, not waiting until the end of the thousand years to be resurrected.

We do not need Revelation 20 to point out the resurrection of Christ.

Revelation 20 declares those in the camp of the saints. They are those resurrected in verse 4. The same subject as those reigning with Christ. John did not switch from saints in heaven to suddenly saints on earth. If so he would have to define them, instead of the assumption one would have of a physical resurrection 1,000 years earlier.

The assumption these are the same as in verse 4 is more logical than to assume it is a totally different group of saints. Because verse 3 has Satan bound, then people resurrected. The thought goes hand in hand because they share the same 1,000 year period. Then when Satan is loosed after the 1,000 years, it still effects the same people, because they were said to only reign for the same length of time Satan was bound. But that is probably to simple and straightforward. We should try to find a way to make it more complicated and interesting, so we will just symbolize the chapter and then give it our own twist using the logic of other Scripture instead of the actual text itself.
 
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sovereigngrace

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You are still missing the point of a resurrection. A soul reigning with Christ is not a resurrection. I have no argument about that.

In fact since the Cross all have had a resurrection and have physical bodies. So you deny a resurrection, but yet claim the resurrection in Revelation 20:4 is only for Christ, and has nothing to do with martyrs, because souls in heaven now are against your definition of the biblical resurrection.

When I claim they are resurrected with physical bodies, you call that nonsense. Yet Revelation 20:4 is about their resurrection, not the resurrection of Christ. So according to you they have not been resurrected, only Christ has been ressurected, and they are just souls waiting for a resurrection. That is not even symbolically stated any where in Revelation 20. They were given the first resurrection, not waiting until the end of the thousand years to be resurrected.

We do not need Revelation 20 to point out the resurrection of Christ.

Revelation 20 declares those in the camp of the saints. They are those resurrected in verse 4. The same subject as those reigning with Christ. John did not switch from saints in heaven to suddenly saints on earth. If so he would have to define them, instead of the assumption one would have of a physical resurrection 1,000 years earlier.

The assumption these are the same as in verse 4 is more logical than to assume it is a totally different group of saints. Because verse 3 has Satan bound, then people resurrected. The thought goes hand in hand because they share the same 1,000 year period. Then when Satan is loosed after the 1,000 years, it still effects the same people, because they were said to only reign for the same length of time Satan was bound. But that is probably to simple and straightforward. We should try to find a way to make it more complicated and interesting, so we will just symbolize the chapter and then give it our own twist using the logic of other Scripture instead of the actual text itself.

This is all according to you. You refuse to bring Scripture to the table and explain it. That is because you have nothing.

Where does Scripture teach resurrected beings procreate?
 
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Timtofly

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Stop ducking around the biblical evidence.

Where does Scripture teach resurrected beings procreate?
Revelation 20 implies it. Isaiah 65 implies it. It claims they have offspring. How they do it, is not literally spelled out.

For someone who claims to have faith and belief, why does everything about the future have to be literally explained in God's Word?
 
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