The Danger of Pre-Tribulation Rapture Doctrine

Let no man deceive you. If you willingly believe what He tells you NOT to believe you are in rebellion and need to repent.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You and all believers will be raised up "on the last day" "at the last trump" "after the (great) tribulation of those days."

Belief that the first resurrection will come before the things described here and in Matthew 24 is rebellion against His word.
That is dangerous.

SchmedlytheGreat said:

Let no man deceive you. If you willingly believe what He tells you NOT to believe you are in rebellion and need to repent.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJV
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Click to expand...

3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You and all believers will be raised up "on the last day" "at the last trump" "after the (great) tribulation of those days."

Belief that the first resurrection will come before the things described here and in Matthew 24 is rebellion against His word.
That is dangerous.

Click to expand...

The rapture is not imminent.

The apostasy must occur and the man of lawlessness must be revealed first.

For the first 8 or so years of my Christian walk I believed in the pre-trib resurrection. I read "The Late Great Planet Earth," Dakes commentary, Larkin, and others. I believed it mainly because I was young and not knowledgeable about what the Word actually said. Around 1978 the Lord began to work on me about this important teaching. I finally found a good book on the subject "Christians will go through the Tribulation" which made a lot of sense.
I still like the Dakes and Larkin charts... but the pre-trib no longer holds me.

SchmedlytheGreat said:

For the first 8 or so years of my Christian walk I believed in the pre-trib resurrection. I read "The Late Great Planet Earth," Dakes commentary, Larkin, and others. I believed it mainly because I was young and not knowledgeable about what the Word actually said. Around 1978 the Lord began to work on me about this important teaching. I finally found a good book on the subject "Christians will go through the Tribulation" which made a lot of sense.
I still like the Dakes and Larkin charts... but the pre-trib no longer holds me.

Click to expand...

For me, the whole thing was new information, which I did not remember seeing in the Scriptures.
So I searched them, and I did not find it there, rather I found things contrary to it there.

So, per this forum and on dozens if not hundreds of websites it can be clearly shown that thousands can read the same words and come to differing conclusions.
What bothers me is the anger that seems to be stirred up, and it begs me to analyze the human condition. Are these so concerned with another’s soul or are they so concerned with being right?
I honestly don’t care which side you fall on, you will never change my mind about what I’ve read, studied, and prayed over for years. The bottom line is how strong is your faith and will it endure to whichever rapture you adhere to.
I personally believe in a pre tribulation rapture for several reasons, and they’re all Biblical, and from written Word.
First: Who is coming for the Church? In scripture the person coming for the Church is always Jesus. And how is He coming?
Who:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord Himself shall descend...”
John 14:33 “...I will come back and take you..”
Revelation 3:10 “....I will also keep you from the hour of trial...”
How:
1 Thessalonians 4:17-17
“...with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.”
Mark 13:32
“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
Luke 21:34-36
“But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap.”
At the end of the age who is sent? Scripture records repeatedly that The Son of Man sends His angels. And how?
Who:
Matthew 13:37-43
“...The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather...”
Mark 13:24-27
“...At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather...”
Matthew 24:31
“And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather..”
Matthew 13:49-50
“So it will be at the close and consummation of the age. The angels will go forth and separate...”
How:
Matthew 24:31
“And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call...”
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
“....at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,...”
So. For the rapture, scripture tells us that the shout of an archangel AND a trumpet will be the signal for Christ Himself to descend while the Church ascends to “meet Him in the air”.
There are no angels, no harvesting, no separating, no fire. And it clearly says that the “dead in CHRIST” shall rise. At the end of the age scripture clearly says that “the last trumpet”, no archangel, will be the signal and that The Son of Man sends angels to harvest, to separate, and cast into fire. It also says that “the dead” will rise. Not the dead in Christ, but only the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 “...For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised...”
Scripture also clearly states that Christ’s return will be as a thief in the night. That no one, not even Christ knows the hour of His return. At the “end of the age” Christ knows exactly when He will return, and we would simply have to do a little rudimentary math to figure out His return. After the rapture scripture tells us in Luke 21 that “anguish and distress shall be upon the land”, yet how can there be anguish on the land if we’ve been caught up and the wicked cast into the fire?
Scripture also repeatedly refers to our relationship with Christ as a marriage. We are the bride and He is the groom, and our entrance into glory as a wedding, with a feast and all the traditions of marriage. Well, study marriage at the time of Christ. There is the engagement, which we are now in. The wedding which would take place upon the rapture, and then the bride and groom are removed from the events for seven days. (The tribulation is seven years.) Then the wedding feast.
Scripture also says that we are “not appointed to God’s wrath”, and that we will be “kept from the trial that will come on the whole world.” At no other time does God put “the whole world” through trial or tribulation except during THE tribulation. Scripture also says that we should remain on guard to
be worthy “to escape all these things that WILL take place.” Not what has taken place. How could we be able to “escape” these things if we just went through them?
I firmly adhere to the rapture and the end of the age as two separate events.
I will never admonish or criticize anyone who has thoroughly read the scriptures and come to a different conclusion.
One way or another Christ is coming! We must remain vigilant, true, and prepared to give account for our faith until the end...whenever that may be.
God bless you and keep you!

Mountain Man said:

So, per this forum and on dozens if not hundreds of websites it can be clearly shown that thousands can read the same words and come to differing conclusions.
What bothers me is the anger that seems to be stirred up, and it begs me to analyze the human condition. Are these so concerned with another’s soul or are they so concerned with being right?
I honestly don’t care which side you fall on, you will never change my mind about what I’ve read, studied, and prayed over for years. The bottom line is how strong is your faith and will it endure to whichever rapture you adhere to.
I personally believe in a pre tribulation rapture for several reasons, and they’re all Biblical, and from written Word.
First: Who is coming for the Church? In scripture the person coming for the Church is always Jesus. And how is He coming?
Who:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord Himself shall descend...”
John 14:33 “...I will come back and take you..”
Revelation 3:10 “....I will also keep you from the hour of trial...”
How:
1 Thessalonians 4:17-17
“...with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.”
Mark 13:32
“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
Luke 21:34-36
“But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap.”
At the end of the age who is sent? Scripture records repeatedly that The Son of Man sends His angels. And how?
Who:
Matthew 13:37-43
“...The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather...”
Mark 13:24-27
“...At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather...”
Matthew 24:31
“And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather..”
Matthew 13:49-50
“So it will be at the close and consummation of the age. The angels will go forth and separate...”
How:
Matthew 24:31
“And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call...”
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
“....at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,...”
So. For the rapture, scripture tells us that the shout of an archangel AND a trumpet will be the signal for Christ Himself to descend while the Church ascends to “meet Him in the air”.
There are no angels, no harvesting, no separating, no fire. And it clearly says that the “dead in CHRIST” shall rise. At the end of the age scripture clearly says that “the last trumpet”, no archangel, will be the signal and that The Son of Man sends angels to harvest, to separate, and cast into fire. It also says that “the dead” will rise. Not the dead in Christ, but only the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 “...For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised...”
Scripture also clearly states that Christ’s return will be as a thief in the night. That no one, not even Christ knows the hour of His return. At the “end of the age” Christ knows exactly when He will return, and we would simply have to do a little rudimentary math to figure out His return. After the rapture scripture tells us in Luke 21 that “anguish and distress shall be upon the land”, yet how can there be anguish on the land if we’ve been caught up and the wicked cast into the fire?
Scripture also repeatedly refers to our relationship with Christ as a marriage. We are the bride and He is the groom, and our entrance into glory as a wedding, with a feast and all the traditions of marriage. Well, study marriage at the time of Christ. There is the engagement, which we are now in. The wedding which would take place upon the rapture, and then the bride and groom are removed from the events for seven days. (The tribulation is seven years.) Then the wedding feast.
Scripture also says that we are “not appointed to God’s wrath”, and that we will be “kept from the trial that will come on the whole world.” At no other time does God put “the whole world” through trial or tribulation except during THE tribulation. Scripture also says that we should remain on guard to
be worthy “to escape all these things that WILL take place.” Not what has taken place. How could we be able to “escape” these things if we just went through them?
I firmly adhere to the rapture and the end of the age as two separate events.
I will never admonish or criticize anyone who has thoroughly read the scriptures and come to a different conclusion.
One way or another Christ is coming! We must remain vigilant, true, and prepared to give account for our faith until the end...whenever that may be.
God bless you and keep you!

Click to expand...

In all honesty I hope that all who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture is right, because that would spare the believers the terrible times of those days.

There is also the possibility that pre-tribulation is wrong and if it is there will be a lot of Christians in trouble. They will be expecting to be taken away.

When Jesus spoke of being spared of those days, that could be referring to those who are born on Earth, live their life no matter how long or short and die before the days of the great tribulation come.

And at the last trumpet God's kingdom is here on Earth. Revelation 11:15 without a shadow of a doubt when that trumpet sounds the kingdom of God is here he will reign forever and ever.

Since the 1980s when I began an in-depth study and begin to read the scriptures myself _ I begin to see differently than what I had been taught in church. I began to listen to other theologians and ministers preach / teach on the same subject, most taught the pre-tribulation rapture, and still do - some taught differently and believed as I did.

It won't be until those times come that one will know as an absolute - all we can do is stand on what we believe.

Take care and God blessings be with you

Mountain Man said:

So, per this forum and on dozens if not hundreds of websites it can be clearly shown that thousands can read the same words and come to differing conclusions.

Click to expand...

For at least two reasons:
Different hermeneutic, one of which divides, thereby multiplying, things and events which apostolic teaching presents as the same.

Personal interpretations of prophetic riddles in disagreement with apostolic teaching of the NT Scriptures (which conclude the truth of all Scripture) necessarily making those interpretations incorrect.

What bothers me is the anger that seems to be stirred up, and it begs me to analyze the human condition. Are these so concerned with another’s soul or are they
so concerned with being right?

Click to expand...

It may not be about "being right."

A godly man may righteously be displeasured at denial in the church today of NT apostolic teaching, which denial is often employed in personal interpretations of prophetic riddles.

I honestly don’t care which side you fall on, you will never change my mind about what I’ve read, studied, and prayed over for years. The bottom line is how strong is your faith and will it endure to whichever rapture you adhere to.
I personally believe in a pre tribulation rapture for several reasons, and they’re all Biblical, and from written Word.
First: Who is coming for the Church? In scripture the person coming for the Church is always Jesus. And how is He coming?
Who:
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord Himself shall descend...”
John 14:33 “...I will come back and take you..”
Revelation 3:10 “....I will also keep you from the hour of trial...”
How:
1 Thessalonians 4:17-17
“...with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God.”
Mark 13:32
“But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
Luke 21:34-36
“But watch yourselves lest your hearts be weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and cares of this life, and that day come upon you suddenly like a trap.”
At the end of the age who is sent? Scripture records repeatedly that The Son of Man sends His angels. And how?
Who:
Matthew 13:37-43
“...The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather...”
Mark 13:24-27
“...At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And he will send his angels and gather...”
Matthew 24:31
“And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather..”
Matthew 13:49-50
“So it will be at the close and consummation of the age. The angels will go forth and separate...”
How:
Matthew 24:31
“And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call...”
1 Corinthians 15:51-53
“....at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound,...”
So. For the rapture, scripture tells us that the shout of an archangel AND a trumpet will be the signal for Christ Himself to descend while the Church ascends to “meet Him in the air”.
There are no angels, no harvesting, no separating, no fire. And it clearly says that the “dead in CHRIST” shall rise. At the end of the age scripture clearly says that “the last trumpet”, no archangel, will be the signal and that The Son of Man sends angels to harvest, to separate, and cast into fire. It also says that “the dead” will rise. Not the dead in Christ, but only the dead. 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 “...For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised...”
Scripture also clearly states that Christ’s return will be as a thief in the night. That no one, not even Christ knows the hour of His return. At the “end of the age” Christ knows exactly when He will return, and we would simply have to do a little rudimentary math to figure out His return. After the rapture scripture tells us in Luke 21 that “anguish and distress shall be upon the land”, yet how can there be anguish on the land if we’ve been caught up and the wicked cast into the fire?
Scripture also repeatedly refers to our relationship with Christ as a marriage. We are the bride and He is the groom, and our entrance into glory as a wedding, with a feast and all the traditions of marriage. Well, study marriage at the time of Christ. There is the engagement, which we are now in. The wedding which would take place upon the rapture, and then the bride and groom are removed from the events for seven days. (The tribulation is seven years.) Then the wedding feast.
Scripture also says that we are “not appointed to God’s wrath”, and that we will be “kept from the trial that will come on the whole world.” At no other time does God put “the whole world” through trial or tribulation except during THE tribulation. Scripture also says that we should remain on guard to
be worthy “to escape all these things that WILL take place.” Not what has taken place. How could we be able to “escape” these things if we just went through them?
I firmly adhere to the rapture and the end of the age as two separate events.
I will never admonish or criticize anyone who has thoroughly read the scriptures and come to a different conclusion.
One way or another Christ is coming! We must remain vigilant, true, and prepared to give account for our faith until the end...whenever that may be.
God bless you and keep you!

Click to expand...

Sheila Davis said:

In all honesty I hope that all who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture is right, because that would spare the believers the terrible times of those days.

There is also the possibility that pre-tribulation is wrong and if it is there will be a lot of Christians in trouble. They will be expecting to be taken away.

When Jesus spoke of being spared of those days, that could be referring to those who are born on Earth, live their life no matter how long or short and die before the days of the great tribulation come.

Click to expand...

And at the last trumpet God's kingdom is here on Earth. Revelation 11:15 without a shadow of a doubt when that trumpet sounds the kingdom of God is here he will reign forever and ever.
Since the 1980s when I began an in-depth study and begin to read the scriptures myself _ I begin to see differently

Click to expand...

Ditto, here also.

than what I had been taught in church. I began to listen to other theologians and ministers preach / teach on the same subject, most taught
the pre-tribulation rapture, and still do - some taught differently and believed as I did.

Click to expand...

Apostolic teaching of the NT Scriptures (which conclude the truth of all Scripture) likewise does not present "the great tribulation," rather it presents the revealing of the "man of lawlessness, in the works of Satan in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders and in every sort of evil," and "God sending them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie." (2 Thessalonians 2:5-12).

It won't be until those times come that one will know as an absolute - all we can do is stand on what we believe.

Take care and God blessings be with you

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

For at least two reasons:
Different hermeneutic, one of which divides, thereby multiplying, things and events which apostolic teaching presents as the same.

Personal interpretations of prophetic riddles in disagreement with apostolic teaching of the NT Scriptures (which conclude the truth of all Scripture) necessarily making those interpretations incorrect.
It may not be about "being right."

A godly man may righteously be displeasured at denial in the church today of NT apostolic teaching, which denial is often employed in personal interpretations of prophetic riddles.

Click to expand...

I engage in no personal “interpretation” but take scripture at its word, pray vigilantly for Holy Spirit, wisdom, and discernment. There is no riddle in who is coming, or how He is coming.
There is no riddle.
I was not “taught” my understanding but read, prayed for wisdom and discernment, and concluded.
There are many who have been taught one way or another and have not come to any unbiased or affected personal conclusions. For these to change their minds would be all but impossible whether they be right or wrong. I am surely not going to change your mind and I have absolutely no need to.
I have no fear as described of weakening should I be wrong in my understanding, for if I am able to endure to the end the very temptations that afflict all mankind for every minute of every day without the knowledge of when He will appear, think of how glorious it will be to actually know exactly when He will appear...at the end of the age. And how perfected in our afflictions knowing that ALL that was foretold is unfolding before our very eyes and rejoicing with the throngs of people who will come to love and adhere to Christ as savior in that hour. I have already escaped God’s wrath as I lived a lifetime in unfathomable sin and debauchery...and yet God called out to me...saved from His judgement and wrath I have been!
I have no fear! And I am absolutely sure of my salvation in Christ Jesus.

Mountain Man said:

I engage in no personal “interpretation” but take scripture at its word,

Click to expand...

The meaning of prophecy is not necessarily given clearly, and not necessarily to be taken literally (at its word), because it is figurative.
Much interpretation of prophecy "taken at its (literal) word" contradicts authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

, and can pray vigilantly for Holy Spirit, wisdom, and discernment.
There is no riddle.

Click to expand...

God himself has told us that he gives prophecy in "dark sayings" (riddles).

God, is his rebuke to Miraam regarding Moses, told her that while he speaks to the prophets in dark sayings (riddles), he speaks to Moses clearly, that while he speaks to the prophets in dreams and visions, he speaks to Moses "face to face." (Numbers 12:8)
Prophecy, therefore, being given in riddles is subject to more than one interpretation, the only rule being interpretation must not be in disagreement with authoritative NT apostolic teaching.

I was not “taught” my understanding

Click to expand...

Meaning? . . .teaching is necessarily erroneous?

but read, prayed for wisdom and discernment, and concluded.

Click to expand...

All still must agree with NT authoritative apostolic teaching to be correct interpretation.
God has not left us without a measure for the validity of our interpretations.

There are many who have been taught one way or another and
have not come to any unbiased or affected personal conclusions.

Click to expand...

And that includes the self-taught as well as everyone else.

The only measure is NT authoritative apostolic teaching.
All interpretation not in agreement with apostolic teaching, whether self-taught or received teaching, is incorrect.

Clare73 said:

The meaning of prophecy is not necessarily given clearly, and not necessarily to be taken literally (at its word), because it is figurative.
Much interpretation of prophecy "taken at its (literal) word" contradicts authoritative NT apostolic teaching.
God himself has told us that he gives prophecy in "dark sayings" (riddles).

God, is his rebuke to Miraam regarding Moses, told her that while he speaks to his prophets in visions and dreams, in "dark sayings" (riddles), which meanings he does not give clearly, to Moses he speaks clearly--"face to face." (Numbers 12:8)

Meaning? . . .teaching is necessarily erroneous?

All still must agree with NT authoritative apostolic teaching to be correct interpretation.
God has not left us without a measure for the validity of our interpretations.

And that includes the self-taught as well as everyone else.

The only measure is NT authoritative apostolic teaching.
All interpretation not in agreement with apostolic teaching, whether self-taught or received teaching, is incorrect.

Click to expand...

I am a helicopter pilot. I belong to several groups online and invariably when an individual with desire to learn to fly asks what is the best school, 99% will tell you the school they went to. It is human nature.
As to “prophesy” being mysterious...when Jesus says, “I’m coming to get you”...there is absolutely no mystery there. There is no deeper hidden meaning or need for delicate dissection and interpretation.
When Jesus said I am The Way...was there some symbolic and dark mystery hidden in His words....uh..no.
“Christ Himself will descend”
I am trying to find the dark mystery in this???
“The Son of Man will send forth His angels”
Nope....still no mystery.
We are clearly seeing things differently...the only difference is I’m totally ok that you see it differently.
Millions believe as you do, and millions believe as I do....the bottom line is that we should ALL be ready for Christ’s return and I pray He doesn’t find us all bickering and slandering one another for those shall surely subject themselves to judgement.
Christ will look at your heart, and He’ll examine mine, and I don’t think for one second He’s gonna query us about the doctrine that aligned my heart, or yours to His.

Mountain Man said:

I am a helicopter pilot. I belong to several groups online and invariably when an individual with desire to learn to fly asks what is the best school, 99% will tell you the school they went to. It is human nature.
As to “prophesy” being mysterious...when Jesus says, “I’m coming to get you”...there is absolutely no mystery there. There is no deeper hidden meaning or need for delicate dissection and interpretation.
When Jesus said I am The Way...was there some symbolic and dark mystery hidden in His words....uh..no.
“Christ Himself will descend”
I am trying to find the dark mystery in this???
“The Son of Man will send forth His angels”
Nope....still no mystery.
We are clearly seeing things differently...the only difference is I’m totally ok that you see it differently.

Click to expand...

Millions believe as you do,

Click to expand...

How do I believe?

and millions believe as I do....the bottom line is that we should ALL be ready for Christ’s return and I pray He doesn’t find us all bickering and slandering one another for those shall surely subject themselves to judgement.
Christ will look at your heart, and He’ll examine mine, and I don’t think for one second He’s gonna query us about the doctrine that aligned my heart, or yours to His.

Click to expand...

Which is not to say that God's truth doesn't matter, and doctrinal error is okay (1 Timothy 4:16;
2 Peter 3:16b).

Sheila Davis said:

In all honesty I hope that all who believe in the pre-tribulation rapture is right, because that would spare the believers the terrible times of those days.

There is also the possibility that pre-tribulation is wrong and if it is there will be a lot of Christians in trouble. They will be expecting to be taken away.

When Jesus spoke of being spared of those days, that could be referring to those who are born on Earth, live their life no matter how long or short and die before the days of the great tribulation come.

And at the last trumpet God's kingdom is here on Earth. Revelation 11:15 without a shadow of a doubt when that trumpet sounds the kingdom of God is here he will reign forever and ever.

Since the 1980s when I began an in-depth study and begin to read the scriptures myself _ I begin to see differently than what I had been taught in church. I began to listen to other theologians and ministers preach / teach on the same subject, most taught the pre-tribulation rapture, and still do - some taught differently and believed as I did.

It won't be until those times come that one will know as an absolute - all we can do is stand on what we believe.

Take care and God blessings be with you

Click to expand...

Interesting view! I am thoroughly convinced in my years of study, by many verses, that the "Bride" (universal Church) --redeemed souls (as shown in John 3; Romans 8, etc.) who are still alive here then on earth, will at that appointed time one day (which I believe will be soon now), suddenly called up to Heaven without notice (called 'rapture': uplifting joy); and they will forever be with their Lord Jesus there (and all the saints who are now up there by faith in Christ), until He returns with His 'bride' to reign a "thousand years on earth ---the "millennium", as shown in the Book of Revelation.
After the 'rapture' there will be "seven and a half years" as Scripture tells us, when Satan will rule over the remnant of people left here without Christ. His servants: the two "beasts": first, the political one who will require all souls to receive the "mark of the beast" on them to buy, sell, or do anything to obtain sustenance, then the religious beast will appear to deceive and require allegiance to Satan to live. There will be wars and nations shall perish. Those who are not killed will be few and slaves for the time.
At the end of these few years, the Lord Jesus will return as He tells us in Scripture with His "bride" and defeat Satan and his armies, and reign "a thousand years": the "millennium" (as Revelation shows). There will be peace on earth with the Lord Jesus returning to His given throne by His Father, which is presently in Israel on what we know as the 'temple mount' as shown in the Old Testament.
Israel is where Jesus ascended up to Heaven at Mt. Olive after His resurrection from the dead, and and where He will return to take up His throne in righteousness (in the temple on the present site there held by Arabs; and where the original throne and reign of Israel was. All the world will need to bow to Him; and His redeemed saints ("born again" souls: the "bride") will be His government on earth.
After the "thousand year" reign of Christ, He will return the earth to His Father, and take His "bride" with Him back to Heaven forever. Israel will then be restored (after their failures and killing of their "Messiah", for which they have suffered many years); and these new souls: the 144,000 shown in the book of Revelation, will be God's new people (according to the "covenant" of promise made in times of old); and God will again rule and reign over them as shown in the Old Testament. There will thereafter be a Heavenly people with Jesus Christ above, and an earthly people on earth under our Creator-God ( seemingly somewhat as before --understanding that NO MAN will ever see the Creator God, for He is a Holy Spirit ---manifested for a time on earth in Jesus: the Christ).

I hope this brief summary will shed some light to seekers. -1watchman

1watchman said:

Interesting view! I am thoroughly convinced in my years of study, by many verses, that the "Bride" (universal Church) --redeemed souls (as shown in John 3; Romans 8, etc.) who are still alive here then on earth, will at that appointed time one day (which I believe will be soon now), suddenly called up to Heaven without notice (called 'rapture': uplifting joy); and they will forever be with their Lord Jesus there (and all the saints who are now up there by faith in Christ), until He returns with His 'bride' to reign a "thousand years on earth ---the "millennium", as shown in the Book of Revelation.
After the 'rapture' there will be "seven and a half years" as Scripture tells us, when Satan will rule over the remnant of people left here without Christ. His servants: the two "beasts": first, the political one who will require all souls to receive the "mark of the beast" on them to buy, sell, or do anything to obtain sustenance, then the religious beast will appear to deceive and require allegiance to Satan to live. There will be wars and nations shall perish. Those who are not killed will be few and slaves for the time.
At the end of these few years, the Lord Jesus will return as He tells us in Scripture with His "bride" and defeat Satan and his armies, and reign "a thousand years": the "millennium" (as Revelation shows). There will be peace on earth with the Lord Jesus returning to His given throne by His Father, which is presently in Israel on what we know as the 'temple mount' as shown in the Old Testament.
Israel is where Jesus ascended up to Heaven at Mt. Olive after His resurrection from the dead, and and where He will return to take up His throne in righteousness (in the temple on the present site there held by Arabs; and where the original throne and reign of Israel was. All the world will need to bow to Him; and His redeemed saints ("born again" souls: the "bride") will be His government on earth.
After the "thousand year" reign of Christ, He will return the earth to His Father, and take His "bride" with Him back to Heaven forever. Israel will then be restored (after their failures and killing of their "Messiah", for which they have suffered many years); and these new souls: the 144,000 shown in the book of Revelation, will be God's new people (according to the "covenant" of promise made in times of old); and God will again rule and reign over them as shown in the Old Testament. There will thereafter be a Heavenly people with Jesus Christ above, and an earthly people on earth under our Creator-God ( seemingly somewhat as before --understanding that NO MAN will ever see the Creator God, for He is a Holy Spirit ---manifested for a time on earth in Jesus: the Christ).

I hope this brief summary will shed some light to seekers. -1watchman

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I remember in the 1960s when I was old enough to fully understand what the minister was saying, I too believe that one day people would just disappear, be called up to heaven.

I loved listening to Jack Van Impe, he was an end time minister who keep up with world events. Listening to him I kept up with what's going on in the world. He also teached the pre-tribulation rapture his words were Jesus was going to come, take the saints, linger just above the Earth for three and a half years - then after the tribulation come down and set foot on the ground. I totally disagree with that - I even once asked why would Jesus come here take the church and wait?

I see what is termed the pre-tribulation rapture as being one single event -Jesus will take the church and come down simultaneously.

I've asked myself back in the 1980s when I was preparing a report for a friend concerning the rapture - at that time I too still believed people would begin to disappear. I listened to the elders as a child in the sixties speak of airplanes coming down, car wrecks, people being confused, because millions have disappeared............. Preparing the scriptures I asked why is it written in scripture alive and remain - remain from what if not the tribulation of those days _1st Thessalonians 4:14-18 ........... I asked myself why did Paul say "let no man fool you" by any means for that day shall not come until / except there come a falling away first and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition _ 2nd Thessalonians 1:2, plus that scripture supports Matthew 24:15............ I ask myself why scripture says when you see the abomination that maketh desolate spoken of by Daniel the prophet stand in the holy place where it ought not, run Matthew 24:15........... I wondered why scripture said in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump, for the trumpet shall sound in the dead shall rise 1st Corinthians 15:52. Twinkling of an eye is an instant, but why do they say this is going to happen at the last trumpet? Revelations 11:15 tells us the last trumpet the kingdom of heaven is here on Earth.......... The more I studied the more I learned. I learned

That is nother thing the church is divided on when the rapture will take place - which media reports indicate the rapture was not taught in the early churches before the 18th century and was spread by John Darby.
John Nelson Darby: A Brief Sketch of his Life & Impact
Rapture Doctrine invented by John Darby in 1830 AD
Will Christians Be Secretly Raptured?
And there is a lot of information by a lot of different people and organizations written about John Nelson Darby. And there is Margaret McDonald she too played a role with Darby with her visions.
Divided churches
Do Catholics believe in the rapture?
Poll: Only a Third of Protestant Pastors Believe in a Pre-tribulation Rapture - RELEVANT
https://www1.cbn.com/cbnnews/us/2016/april/large-number-of-pastors-dont-believe-in-the-rapture
It seems there may be quite a few churches no longer preaching the pre-tribulation rapture.

Yes God the Father is Spirit as Jesus said and no man has ever seen him, not even one man in the Old Testament. Jesus said the Father and I are one - Jesus is God in the Old Testament. As Jesus said before Abraham was I Am __ as Thomas called Jesus, my Lord my God __ as David said the Lord said unto my Lord sit at my right hand till __ as written in the book of Isaiah he shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace __ As written; in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God; the same was in the beginning with God.
Not trying to say you're wrong and I'm right - just giving a more detailed account of my perspective.
God blessings

It might be good if we could chat over these things we have discussed in a personal way at the Conversation page herein on CF. I find we have some common understandings, and some issues might be better discussed there --would you say?

Humble_Disciple said:

The danger of pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is that believers will not be prepared for the time of great tribulation, expecting that God will just rescue them before anything really bad happens.

The early church fathers and the early Protestant Reformers taught that the rapture will occur after the great tribulation. It wasn't until the modern doctrine of Dispensationalism that belief in a pre-trib rapture became popular, and there are serious biblical problems with Dispensationalism, from a traditional Reformed perspective.
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Better off not bringing the Protestant Reformation idea into it, because the actual Bible Scripture doesn't.

True, that the pre-trib rapture theory first began to be preached in certain churches in 1830s Great Britain by Edward Irving and John Nelson Darby. Prior to that, a post-tribulational return of Christ and gathering was taught in the Christian Church.

Jesus gave a direct revelation in Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 that His coming and gathering of His Church is AFTER... the tribulation. So that should... end any and all debate of the when.

The problem is though, some don't care what Jesus said, and are out to destroy as many Christian brethren as they can, those destroyers being servants of the devil. There is no other way to put it, since those could care less what Lord Jesus said in those Scriptures I quoted. They instead are determined to teach their 'own' word, and you are correct, they especially do it for filthy lucre.

Humble_Disciple said:

In Matthew 24:13, when speaking of the time of great tribulation, Jesus says "He who endures to the end will be saved." How does this square with the pre-trib rapture teaching that we don't need to endure to the end, but instead will be rescued before anything bad happens?

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If you are from Israel , then Matt 24:13 and 14 is your verse .

If you are in the BODY OF CHRIST , Then 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4:13-18 and 2 Thess 2:1-7 belongs to you .

Then the Per-trib beings in verse 1 Thess 2: 7and 8 .

dan p

Humble_Disciple said:

The danger of pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is that believers will not be prepared for the time of great tribulation, expecting that God will just rescue them before anything really bad happens.

The early church fathers and the early Protestant Reformers taught that the rapture will occur after the great tribulation. It wasn't until the modern doctrine of Dispensationalism that belief in a pre-trib rapture became popular, and there are serious biblical problems with Dispensationalism, from a traditional Reformed perspective.

The popular acceptance of pre-trib teaching today seems to be an outgrowth of modern materialism and consumerism, that we shouldn't have to suffer for the Gospel. Just look at how much money has been made by the Left Behind franchise.

Are there any Biblical passages which prove, definitely, a pre-tribulation rapture?

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The early church Fathers did not teach the doctrine of Rapture at all. The whole premillenial dispensationalist concept including the Rapture were innovative doctrines of John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren.

The Liturgist said:

The early church Fathers did not teach the doctrine of Rapture at all. The whole premillenial dispensationalist concept including the Rapture were innovative doctrines of John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren.

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One can get this history quite clear by contacting Bibletruthpublishers.com in Addison, IL to show Church history. I find it a good resource for Christian history, beside a source of Bibles, ministry books, and other Church materials.
I also have found much help at the sound site: www.biblecounsel.net where they will discuss things to one with questions about God's intent for His Church.

The Liturgist said:

The early church Fathers did not teach the doctrine of Rapture at all. The whole premillenial dispensationalist concept including the Rapture were innovative doctrines of John Nelson Darby of the Plymouth Brethren.

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Do not the NT Scriptures teach the rapture at the resurrection at the end of time?

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air to be with the Lord forever," in eternity (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

The rapture is not a concept of John Nelson Darby, it is a NT concept, right?