The acceptance of hypocrisy

public hermit · Jan 23, 2022

Clare73 said:
Depends on what you are repenting of.

Touche

Maria Billingsley · Jan 23, 2022

Michael Collum said:
The church does not accept LGBT folks in church due to the sentiment "from the beginning it was not so"

The church does accept divorced people and even allows them to remarry, even though Jesus said remarrying equals adultery "because from the beginning it was not so"

Should the church be concerned about the acceptance of this, and similar hypocrisies? How does God tend to respond to hypocrisy when quoted directly in the bible?

Once you have one blind spot, many others crop up in that space, and become a thing all of a sudden. Might be worth a discussion.

A Pastor is responsible for keeping the fold that belongs to the Body of Christ in the direction of righteousness. Individuals are responsible for staying on the path of righteousness revealed to them through the Holy Spirit. There are wheat and tares among the flock and there is little one can do other than teach truth. That being said, love can conquer all sin. Eventually, truth exposes hypocrisy and brings those who sin into true lasting repentance. This is done by hearing in order to change the heart and receive His Holy Spirit, the power behind salvation.
Blessings

Clare73 · Jan 23, 2022

public hermit said:
God is not afraid of sinners. God loves sinners. What God doesn't seem to like are self-righteous religious folk who won't break bread with sinners.

No one is sinless.

Are unrepentant and repentant sinners being confounded here?

Clare73 · Jan 23, 2022

public hermit said:
Okay, then do it; but don't dare stop at a handful of gay folks. Get all the sinners out.

It's not about all sinners, that's everyone.

It's about openly practiced unrepentant sin in the body.

Is 1 Corinthians 5 that hard to understand?

public hermit · Jan 23, 2022

Clare73 said:
No one is sinless.

Are unrepentant and repentant sinners being confounded here?

You dodged my question so I'll put my cards on the table. Repentance is a life-long process. If homosexuality bars one from fellowship why not overeating, pride, dishonesty, whatever?

I don't know what denomination you belong to, but ours cannot deny baptism. And, the reason we don't have a litmus test is because we all know that we all would fail if it were different. How robust is grace, anyhow? Maybe works righteousness is where it's at. Clare, you almost have me convinced that we don't need grace. Or maybe only righteous people need grace; sinners are out of luck?

Clare73 · Jan 23, 2022

Sparagmos said:
Wow. That’s some major self-righteousness there. You really think you repent for every sin? You’re not even aware of your own sin of pride in claiming you don’t practice sin.

Is it pride for him to say he is righteous?

Sparagmos · Jan 23, 2022

Rachel20 said:
Have you never backslid and fallen into sin and been chastised? Then repented, turned, and never gone back to that sin?

If you have a point to make, just make it. I’m not following what you’re saying with the question.

keiw · Jan 23, 2022

Michael Collum said:
The church does not accept LGBT folks in church due to the sentiment "from the beginning it was not so"

The church does accept divorced people and even allows them to remarry, even though Jesus said remarrying equals adultery "because from the beginning it was not so"

Should the church be concerned about the acceptance of this, and similar hypocrisies? How does God tend to respond to hypocrisy when quoted directly in the bible?

Once you have one blind spot, many others crop up in that space, and become a thing all of a sudden. Might be worth a discussion.

The bible says if a mate commits adultery one can divorce them. Its the only biblical reason for divorce. Homosexuals can go to worship God. They cant practice homosexual sex. If they practice that sex then God doesnt want them. The same goes for having sex out of marriage, God will not accept it-1Corinthians 6:9-11

Carl Emerson · Jan 23, 2022

It seems to me that the OP has presented a judgement that is flawed in the first instance.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 23, 2022

public hermit said:
How salty do you think the church is right now? It looks like the world, which is not salty. It's just one more institution vying for power, hence the fear. If it were salty, it wouldn't be afraid of gays or anyone else, but it's not salty and, therefore, afraid.

Apparently we keep our saltiness by being at peace with one another. It's been a while I'd suppose looking at how many schisms over the centuries.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 23, 2022

Carl Emerson said:
By saying that you dismiss good folk who have dedicated their lives to studying the word in detail.

It's more of an application issue, over thinking it tends to result in no application.

Rachel20 · Jan 23, 2022

Sparagmos said:
If you have a point to make, just make it. I’m not following what you’re saying with the question.

The distinction between practicing sin and temporary stumbling is valid.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 23, 2022

Rachel20 said:
I think everyone needs to examine him/her self, because God does deal with hypocrisy in the church.

I agree. However, the method of dealing with it tends to allow the offending limb to get infected and fall off.

This method is very slow, and is painful to watch.

Clare73 · Jan 23, 2022

public hermit said:
You dodged my question

What question in that post?

so I'll put my cards on the table. Repentance is a life-long process. If homosexuality bars one from fellowship why not overeating, pride, dishonesty, whatever?

I don't get to simply reduce the number of occasions of an open sexual relationship outside my "open" marriage in the name of repentance.
I get to give it up, stop it completely. . .or get excommunicated from the fellowship.

I'm sorry that apostolic instruction is not to your agreement.

I don't know what denomination you belong to, but ours cannot deny baptism.

Kinda' moot where babies are baptized.

And, the reason we don't have a litmus test is because we all know that we all would fail if it were different.

If you baptize a person who is in a continuing open sexual relationship outside their marriage, you are sinning against Christ (1 Corinthians 8:12).

How robust is grace, anyhow?

Probably as robust as Jesus saw it in John 5:14, John 8:11; Mark 9:43-47.

Maybe works righteousness is where it's at.

If that is what you think Jesus meant in the above Scriptures, then I guess it is.

Clare, you almost have me convinced that we don't need grace. Or maybe only righteous people need grace; sinners are out of luck?

You almost have me convinced that you think Jesus and the apostles regarded sin as irrelevant.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 23, 2022

Rachel20 said:
Maybe someone needs to define "hypocrisy" because those in Matthew 7:23 were true "hypocrites" to me - they never knew the Lord, though they did so many things in his name

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The bible context is okay, the original word that is translated "hypocrite" had a deeper meaning than today, and perhaps much more offensive.

G5273 - hypokritēs - Strong's Greek Lexicon (kjv)

Blade · Jan 23, 2022

why would you lump all Churches together like this? There are so many that let them in. NOT condoning the sin yet love them. As one gay group that came to protest against a church turned around and said "we have never felt so much love". Again they knew they did not condone the sin.

Gregory Thompson · Jan 23, 2022

Blade said:
why would you lump all Churches together like this? There are so many that let them in. NOT condoning the sin yet love them. As one gay group that came to protest against a church turned around and said "we have never felt so much love". Again they knew they did not condone the sin.

As the scripture says, a little leaven corrupts the whole loaf. The problem is visible enough that the whole church is leavened with it.

And painted with the same black brush.

Clare73 · Jan 23, 2022

keiw said:
The bible says if a mate commits adultery one can divorce them. Its the only biblical reason for divorce. Homosexuals can go to worship God. They cant practice homosexual sex. If they practice that sex then God doesnt want them. The same goes for having sex out of marriage, God will not accept it-1Corinthians 6:9-11

Agreed. . .

chevyontheriver · Jan 23, 2022

Michael Collum said:
The church does not accept LGBT folks in church due to the sentiment "from the beginning it was not so"

The church does accept divorced people and even allows them to remarry, even though Jesus said remarrying equals adultery "because from the beginning it was not so"

Should the church be concerned about the acceptance of this, and similar hypocrisies? How does God tend to respond to hypocrisy when quoted directly in the bible?

Once you have one blind spot, many others crop up in that space, and become a thing all of a sudden. Might be worth a discussion.

First, saying one thing and then not being able to live up to what you say is a rather common human thing. You can try to do better in the future or lower the bar for an easy pass. Your pick.

Second, you say the Church rejects LGBT folks but accepts divorced people. But that's not quite the whole story. While some will not only reject such people, and even claim that 'God hates [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]', that is not the position of the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has a very nuanced position that accepts people with same sex attractions while considering homosexual acts to be sinful. Sort of a 'love the sinner but hate the sin' approach. And at the same time the Catholic Church resists divorce and remarriage. In fact one reason Catholics leave is that they have divorced and they can't remarry as Catholics if their first marriages have not been found null from the beginning. We allow divorced people to be Catholics and receive communion if they do not remarry or engage in sinful sexual acts. We allow people with same sex attraction to be Catholics and to receive communion. They are expected to not engage in sinful sexual acts. For that matter, we do not consider attractions to even be sin, while some Protestants will reject them for even having the inclination.

(OK, pope Francis has said ambiguous things pro and con to confuse people, but he hasn't managed just yet to change the teaching.)

So it's no blind spot for all of us, who accept divorced people and LGBT people but expect both of them to nonetheless live moral lives. All are welcome, but all must be changed by their conversion, and even daily reconversions, to Christ.

What did Jesus say to the woman caught in adultery? Go and sin more carefully? What do flavors of the Church say? Some just forgot what Jesus said. That's not just hypocrisy but apostasy by degrees. Either hating the sinners and the sin OR hating the sinners by loving the sin.

DamianWarS · Jan 23, 2022

Michael Collum said:
The church does not accept LGBT folks in church due to the sentiment "from the beginning it was not so"

The church does accept divorced people and even allows them to remarry, even though Jesus said remarrying equals adultery "because from the beginning it was not so"

Should the church be concerned about the acceptance of this, and similar hypocrisies? How does God tend to respond to hypocrisy when quoted directly in the bible?

Once you have one blind spot, many others crop up in that space, and become a thing all of a sudden. Might be worth a discussion.

This is why there are so many "the church", one accepts LGTB, the other divorcees, some both, some neither.

The acceptance of hypocrisy

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