Whose Resurrection Doctrine should we believe?

Spiritual Jew said:

That is not at all what Peter was saying in 2 Peter 3:13. You are blatantly twisting that verse to fit your view. What Peter was clearly saying there is that the new heavens and new earth would come in accordance with "his promise". Which promise? The promise of Christ's second coming that Peter referenced earlier in 2 Peter 3:4. It does not at all say that we would still be waiting for the new heavens and new earth even after the promise of His second coming occurs.

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Not blatant. You are blatantly mashing creation together into one moment in time, when clearly we are to be patient like God is patient and longsuffering.

I did point out a new heaven and earth with righteousness. But you all reject John in Revelation 20, you all reject Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, and now you reject Peter in 2 Peter 3:8. The NHNE is a totally different creation altogether, and you reject that as well. You have previously claimed the same earth, just different. Where is there a literal city like in Revelation 21 with current capability?

The moon if square would be 2159 miles in length, hight, and depth. The New Jerusalem is about 1200 miles square, so not as big, but certainly bigger than any city known to man. 900 miles difference is less than the actual city size. Putting a square city that size next to a round earth would look funny. Would the city balance or at the center be dozens of miles below the surface of the earth? Since there will be no sun or moon, that is already totally different than the modern concept of heavens and earth and present reality.

I guess if one chooses to symbolize Revelation, one can make it mean anything they so desire.

Fullness of the Gentiles said:

Christ is coming to judge the beast, no?

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Yes, but that is not what that parenthetical was about.

Christ the Prince is coming to cast both the FP and beast into the LOF. To see Satan bound for 1000 years. To rule on the earth for 1000 years. To ressurect those beheaded in the last 42 months, while He was away. To bring the 144k, the sheep, and the wheat harvested during the Trumpets and Thunders to reign on earth. To obviously bring an end to Adam's flesh and blood at Armageddon.

Armageddon is still not the Second Coming that was a thief in the night unexpected event. The verse is out of context with the ongoing narrative, whatever you want to call that form of parenthetical writing.

Spiritual Jew said:

You only accept most of what you post? Which implies that you don't accept at least a few things that you post? That's interesting.

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I try to post like an Amil would think. Obviously I don't accept any Amil thought processes.

Spiritual Jew said:

And that is because of your flawed approach to interpreting scripture where

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And this reflects your personality as being judgmental. One's personality can be obvious when they post online.

keras said:

At the Great White Throne Judgment. Revelation 20:11-15
No one receives immortality or 'glorified bodies' before this Judgment.

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The Bible says
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

The righteous are raised from the graves and those alive are caught up to Jesus in the cloud at the second coming, so are you saying that they are raised as mortals?

The Great White Throne Judgement is after the 1,000 years of satan being chained

Revelation 20:11 King James Version
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.


Revelation 6 King James Version

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

keras said:

Timtofly: Your ideas like the Return at the Sixth Seal and the earth totally destroyed then, are not scripturally supported. Why push them?

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Where do I claim the earth is totally destroyed?

Revelation 20:11

"from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."

Even this is not a point of "total destruction". The old simply fades away and replaced with the new. Those on earth and in Paradise will be unaffected, but notice the change immediately. John only gives us the perspective from the dead standing at the GWT. The living are definitely not the dead, and definitely do not go out of creation to stand as the dead before the GWT.

Of course I think outside of the theological boxes you all seem to place yourself in.

I accept the 6th Seal as the only sign and only Second Coming as Jesus Himself declared in Matthew 24.

Timtofly said:

Not blatant. You are blatantly mashing creation together into one moment in time, when clearly we are to be patient like God is patient and longsuffering.

I did point out a new heaven and earth with righteousness. But you all reject John in Revelation 20, you all reject Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, and now you reject Peter in 2 Peter 3:8. The NHNE is a totally different creation altogether, and you reject that as well. You have previously claimed the same earth, just different. Where is there a literal city like in Revelation 21 with current capability?

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You're not doing your reputation of being clueless any favors by making all these false accusations against me. I do not reject any of the things that you're saying I reject. That is offensive and you're lucky that I'm not reporting you for saying that. I'm only not reporting you because I know you just say things without even thinking.

I guess if one chooses to symbolize Revelation, one can make it mean anything they so desire.

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What kind of comment is this? Do you think all of Revelation is literal? Are you looking out for a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns riding on a literal harlot who is literally sitting on many literal waters?

Timtofly said:

I try to post like an Amil would think. Obviously I don't accept any Amil thought processes.

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Is this all just a game to you? Why do you post so much nonsense? Do you get entertainment from posting gibberish?

Timtofly said:

And this reflects your personality as being judgmental. One's personality can be obvious when they post online.

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How am I being "judgmental" exactly? I am confident that everyone here would agree with me that you post a fair amount of nonsense on here. It's not being judgmental to point it out. It's just being observational. If you don't like it being pointed out then maybe you should stop doing it.

Original Happy Camper said:

Timtofly

I believe that you are mistaken and that you can not support the above statements from scripture

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Revelation 20:4

They reign on earth with physical bodies for 1000 years.

Isaiah 65 is life on earth after the Second Coming and during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

It is the only time since the Flood, that humans will live as trees for hundreds of years. They cannot live for thousands of years, because John states it only last for 1000 years. If it lasted longer, they would also live longer. But those on earth will just continue to live on the New Earth.

Since you already claim a 1000 year period between the Second Coming and the NHNE, then you are pre-mill. I see you do not offer any Scripture to declare a desolate earth for 1000 years. Stating I have not done so, when I have is just avoiding the Scriptures instead of explaining how I see them wrong.

Spiritual Jew said:

You're not doing your reputation of being clueless any favors by making all these false accusations against me. I do not reject any of the things that you're saying I reject. That is offensive and you're lucky that I'm not reporting you for saying that. I'm only not reporting you because I know you just say things without even thinking.

What kind of comment is this? Do you think all of Revelation is literal? Are you looking out for a literal beast with seven literal heads and ten literal horns riding on a literal harlot who is literally sitting on many literal waters?

Is this all just a game to you? Why do you post so much nonsense? Do you get entertainment from posting gibberish?

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You seem to not understand a post I make. I guess we will just leave it at that.

Spiritual Jew said:

How am I being "judgmental" exactly? I am confident that everyone here would agree with me that you post a fair amount of nonsense on here. It's not being judgmental to point it out. It's just being observational. If you don't like it being pointed out then maybe you should stop doing it.

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I don't mind hearing thoughts from judgmental observations.

As for stopping to point out the obvious, that is not going to happen unless the Second Coming happens. Then I will be out of a job of posting the obvious.

Timtofly said:

You seem to not understand a post I make.

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I'm definitely not the only one. You leave a lot of people here scratching their heads after reading some of your posts.

I guess we will just leave it at that.

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That's fine with me.

Timtofly said:

Revelation 20:4

They reign on earth with physical bodies for 1000 years.

Isaiah 65 is life on earth after the Second Coming and during the 1000 year reign of Christ.

It is the only time since the Flood, that humans will live as trees for hundreds of years. They cannot live for thousands of years, because John states it only last for 1000 years. If it lasted longer, they would also live longer. But those on earth will just continue to live on the New Earth.

Since you already claim a 1000 year period between the Second Coming and the NHNE, then you are pre-mill. I see you do not offer any Scripture to declare a desolate earth for 1000 years. Stating I have not done so, when I have is just avoiding the Scriptures instead of explaining how I see them wrong.

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That poster is SDA, and as far as I know, all SDAs take it to mean that and that they typically use Jeremiah 4:23-31 to support that the earth is desolate during the thousand years. I tend to think Jeremiah 4:23-31 is likely future still, yet I don't see it making me want to think the earth is desolate the entire thousand years, though.

Original Happy Camper said:

The Bible says
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

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1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgement. Proved by how it is only then; that Death will be no more. Revelation 21:4
In verse 5, Paul explains how those who are alive after the Millennium and whose names are found in the Book of Life; They will never die, but will be transformed into immortality at that time.

Any ideas of immortality or glorified bodies before then, is false teaching and cannot happen.

DavidPT said:

That poster is SDA, and as far as I know, all SDAs take it to mean that and that they typically use Jeremiah 4:23-31 to support that the earth is desolate during the thousand years. I tend to think Jeremiah 4:23-31 is likely future still, yet I don't see it making me want to think the earth is desolate the entire thousand years, though.

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Yes, most SDA point out desolation of earth. So far no one has pointed out what they claim. Most of the desolation prophecied of Israel started when the 10 northern tribes were removed from Israel. There was the 70 years even Judah and Benjamin were taken to Babylon. Then in 70AD Jerusalem was totally made desolate. So most have accepted that until 1948 the ME was a desolate wasteland.

Of course E. G. White lived and died before the conditions that even allowed 1948. If Israel has been restored, at least in a temporal fashion if not spiritual, now, what future desolation is prophecied? No where is it claimed Christ will destroy after restoration again. In fact most think the restoration and Second Coming cannot happen until Satan's 42 months are over. I agree with the restoration. I do not agree with the point about the Second Coming. The final harvest is not about restoring earth. The final harvest is about the greatest time of Tribulation because all of Adam's flesh and blood will have to physically die.

So no one can state this desolation out of context. Also the surface of the earth has never been symbolized as "the pit". The angels are bound there now. How would letting them loose in the 5th Trumpet now mean they are "bound on earth"? John never mentions them after being cast out of heaven. Can any one explicitly state when they end up in the Lake of Fire?

keras said:

1 Corinthians 15:50-56 is a prophecy about what will happen at the Great White Throne Judgement. Proved by how it is only then; that Death will be no more.
In verse 5, Paul explains how those who are alive after the Millennium and whose names are found in the Book of Life; They will never die, but will be transformed into immortality at that time.

Any ideas of immortality or glorified bodies before then, is false teaching and cannot happen.

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1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.


Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Now point out in Revelation 20:11-15 where it involves a last trumpet and being changed in the twinkling of an eye, while keeping in mind the following passage you bring up from time to time in regards to others.

Revelation 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book

Then explain how adding a last trumpet and the twinking of an eye to that of Revelation 20:11-15 is not adding unto these things written in those verses.

Timtofly said:

So no one can state this desolation out of context. Also the surface of the earth has never been symbolized as "the pit". The angels are bound there now. How would letting them loose in the 5th Trumpet now mean they are "bound on earth"? John never mentions them after being cast out of heaven. Can any one explicitly state when they end up in the Lake of Fire?

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These are good points which I already agree with. The earth is not the pit, meaning it's surface. The pit is below the surface, though. And if satan is below the surface during the thousand years, why would the surface above need to be desolate? That's assuming a literal pit of some kind. I see no reason why a literal pit can't be meant. There don't seem to be any locusts plaguing the earth at the moment, meaning the ones recorded in Revelation 9, whatever they might be. Maybe the reason why is because they are literally being detained somewhere in the meantime. Revelation 9 records that it is the bottomless pit they are being detained in.

One is to believe spirits of wicked humans can be detained somewhere upon death while awaiting a resurrection, but fallen angels, demons, or whatever, these can't be detained anywhere? I wonder how they are going to remain confined in the LOF once they are cast in if beings like this can't be literally confined anywhere?

DavidPT said:

Now point out in Revelation 20:11-15 where it involves a last trumpet and being changed in the twinkling of an eye, while keeping in mind the following passage you bring up from time to time in regards to others.

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I have added the quote from Rev 21:4, where it says: Death will be no more.
This is paralleled by 1 Cor 15:54, proving they are the same event.

Revelation 20 is all about the Millennium and then the GWT Judgment.
There is nothing in Rev 20:1-10 about anyone becoming instantly immortal.

The work you put into this is amazing!!
I wish I had the knowledge and stamina to read it. Thank you for taking the time to do this for us.
God bless you.

keras said:

I have added the quote from Rev 21:4, where it says: Death will be no more.
This is paralleled by 1 Cor 15:54, proving they are the same event.

Revelation 20 is all about the Millennium and then the GWT Judgment.
There is nothing in Rev 20:1-10 about anyone becoming instantly immortal.

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Why is it that you can recognize that 1 Cor 15:54 relates to the time of the GWTJ, which I generally agree with, but can't recognize that it also relates to the time Jesus returns, which would mean that the GWTJ will take place when He returns (as portrayed in Matt 25:31-46)?

Look at these passages:

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

1 Corinthians 15:50 I declare to you, brothers and sisters, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.

Do you think that the ones who belong to Christ who will be resurrected when He returns are different than the ones who will be resurrected at the last trumpet? If so, why? And, if so, who are the resurrected people that 1 Cor 15:23 refers to and who are the resurrected people that 1 Cor 15:52 refers to?