2 Peter 3:10-12. Not when but how?

DavidPT said:

Fire destroys everything in it's path. Water apparently doesn't because if it did, does that mean all plant life and all trees were destroyed in Noah's flood, thus the earth was void of any trees once the flood waters receded, and that they then used seeds they took aboard the ark and sowed them worldwide and waited years for them to grow into adult sized trees, though I'm assuming, that in the beginning God planted adult sized trees throughout the entire planet rather than putting man on a planet with no trees yet and that man has to wait for the trees to grow into adult sized trees because God planted seeds rather than trees already grown? Which leads to my point. If this planet goes up in literal flames, there goes all of the trees, all of the plant life.

I do tend to think outside the box a lot. Maybe that's my problem? Maybe I shouldn't be doing things like that.

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Actually water can do more physical damage and change than fire. Fire can be controlled, water cannot be. We have firemen to handle fire. We do not have watermen who can go out and prevent flash floods from destroying everything, although some can try with last minute sandbagging. After a flood, one has to rebuild just the same as after a fire. And yes, Noah sent out birds and had to keep waiting for things to begin to grow again.

Fire can get out of hand, and that seems to be the default scenario most accept. Revelation does not present fire as being out of God's control. Not even Peter:

"the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

This can be seen as the whole earth "no longer here", but not even all amil agree with that. What is it actually saying, "the works that are therein"? The earth will not be a literal fire ball leaving behind the refined gold. God still can fulfill the verse and strategically remove with fire all the works of man and leave His nature untouched. In fact we have this:

"The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up."

Only a third part of trees are destroyed. Even if all the grass is burned up, grass will grow back. Even when those from the pit are loosed, they cannot touch God's works:

"And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

So we see, God can and does control what will be burned and what remains. Even after the fire of the Second Coming, there are still green trees, green grass will grow back, and the ability to have food and eat. Sending water like a squirt gun here and there during the Flood of Noah's day would not make sense. Water was unleashed from above as well as below. Since the fountains of the deep broke up the crust we call continents, that led to the further separation of continents for thousands of years later as after effects of Noah's Flood. We can see the Flood literally changed earth. In the 6th Seal, we see these once again removed out of their places, presumably to bring them back together for the 1000 year reign, where division of continents will no longer be necessary. All humanity will be more united under Christ, even if there are ethnic divisions/nations.

I think the fire from God will be strategic and not just common forest fires or even whole cities "just burning". Remember there are trillions of stars/angels. There are enough angels to personally protect each and every human during the Second Coming from being destroyed by debris or fall out from earth rearranging geographically. Even in Matthew 25 we see the nations being gathered for judgment. Seems that would be carried out by the angels as well. The angels gather the elect, not sure why they would not gather all others as well. Not sure why the angels would gather the sheep, and the goats would have to provide their own transportation. I guess that makes sense to some people.

DavidPT said:

Can't you see what is going on here? Some of you are basing your literal interpretation of some of 2 Peter 3 because it is being compared to a literal event that involved literal water, therefore, so must the fire be literal.

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Exactly. Why would he compare a non-literal event directly to a literal event? That makes no sense at all.

Things that might survive an earth engulfed in water is not going to survive an earth engulfed in flames.

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What is your point here?

Doesn't water put out fires? How does one literally burn up oceans and seas then?

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You do understand that we're talking about God here, right? You think the One who created the oceans and seas can't burn and dry them up?

And what about all of the stars and planets in our universe, what does one propose happens to them during these alleged literal events? They are going to be wiped out of existence but the earth isn't?

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Sure, why not? Do you not know that there will be no need for the sun and the moon in the new heavens and new earth?

Revelation 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

Revelation 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

How does that make good sense?

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How does it not? You don't seem to be taking God Himself into account here. The all-powerful God who can do anything.

How is it that stars and other planets can be literally destroyed, as if they never existed, but that the earth remains having only experienced surface damage, but everything else in the universe is utterly destroyed?

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What is your problem with that exactly? Why do you think things have to be the same way they are now for eternity?

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” 5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

I showed you this passage before. Did you not read it? What do you think it means when it says "the old order of things has passed away" and what does God mean when He says "I am making everything new"?

Luke 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.

It really makes good sense for this to be taking place on a planet that is no longer habitable once He returns because the planet goes up in literal flames?

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He is regenerating the earth when He returns and making it new. I'm not sure what is hard to understand about that.

This verse says returned. You only return to some place you have previously been. You don't return to somewhere you haven't been yet. Obviously then, where He is returning to is the earth, thus He has bodily set foot on the earth when these things are taking place.

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Yes, He is returning to the earth but He is making it new which is why it's called "the new earth". It will be a place where righteousness dwells (2 Peter 3:13) and no wickedness at all will be allowed there. Your view has sin and death continuing when the new earth is ushered in which I find to be utterly unbelievable.

DavidPT said:

I tend to pay attention to details in the texts though sometimes I might be guilty of neglecting to do that at times, yet I'm not suggesting others don't pay attention to details, I'm only meaning me in this case, and when I see keywords such as 'returned' and that I know what that word means, I am then not having someone returning to somewhere they weren't previously at to begin with, I have them returning to where they were at at an earlier point in time. That's just plain common sense.

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Are you sure you're reading my posts carefully? I too believe He will return to the earth, but He is going to renew it first. I've told you many times that I don't believe He is going to completely annihilate the earth and then replace it with an entirely different new earth. I believe He is going to burn up and renew this earth which will result in the new earth.

When do you plan on explaining your current understanding of 2 Peter 3? If it's not meant to be taken literally, then how do you think it should be understood?

That parable has Christ setting foot on the earth again, something Amils claim He never does, that He only sets foot on the earth once it is the NHNE, but never when it is still this present earth. Fine then.

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Wait a minute. Where does it say He will set foot on this earth again as we know it? It doesn't. You're reading things into the text that aren't there. Once again, you are interpreting scripture with Premil bias rather than taking an objective approach.

I actually don't see a reason to care.

I'm more concerned to make sure that I'm caught doing what I'm commanded to be doing.

DavidPT said:

This I find to be reasonable and is something I can accept since that is not the same thing as the entire planet being literally engulfed in flames, therefore giving Christ a somewhat still habitable place to return to as opposed to no habitable place at all.

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It seems that you have pretty low standards. Amils believe that He will step foot on a completely perfect new earth where sin and death no longer occur. You have Him stepping foot on a barely inhabitable earth where sin and death will still exist. Think about that.

RDKirk said:

I actually don't see a reason to care.

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About what exactly? Whether 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meant to be taken literally or figuratively?

I'm more concerned to make sure that I'm caught doing what I'm commanded to be doing.

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But, what is the reason you're concerned about that? Part of the reason for caring if it's literal or not is because if it is then it should make us take what Peter said here seriously:

2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.

If he wasn't talking about literal destruction, then would we take him seriously about being careful about living holy and godly lives? Probably not. But, if he's talking about the need to live godly lives in order to avoid the destruction he wrote about then that is clearly something to take seriously and care about.

Spiritual Jew said:

About what exactly? Whether 2 Peter 3:10-12 is meant to be taken literally or figuratively?

But, what is the reason you're concerned about that? Part of the reason for caring if it's literal or not is because if it is then it should make us take what Peter said here seriously:

2 Peter 3:11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.

If he wasn't talking about literal destruction, then would we take him seriously about being careful about living holy and godly lives? Probably not. But, if he's talking about the need to live godly lives in order to avoid the destruction he wrote about then that is clearly something to take seriously and care about.

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The reason I don't care is because death is likely to overtake me first in either case. And if it does, that will be interesting too.

But in the eternal run...the method does not matter.

DavidPT said:

This I find to be reasonable and is something I can accept since that is not the same thing as the entire planet being literally engulfed in flames, therefore giving Christ a somewhat still habitable place to return to as opposed to no habitable place at all.

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Yes, of course you can accept it as long as it allows for some mortals to survive into an earthly millennial kingdom. Yet, the text gives no indication of that whatsoever.

RDKirk said:

The reason I don't care is because death is likely to overtake me first in either case. And if it does, that will be interesting too.

But in the eternal run...the method does not matter.

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Do you think God expects us not to care what is written in His Word? I'm honestly a bit baffled by the way you're looking at this. Why was 2 Peter 3 written if we don't need to even care about it?

DavidPT said:

What I'm not entirely certain about is whether the Lord needs to be physically present during the day of the Lord.

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The Lord stays in heaven: Psalms 11:4-6, Psalms 110:5-6
He SENDS His fiery wrath: Amos 1, Amos 2:1-5, Habakkuk 3:4; Isaiah 17

Spiritual Jew said:

Exactly. Why would he compare a non-literal event directly to a literal event? That makes no sense at all.

What is your point here?

You do understand that we're talking about God here, right? You think the One who created the oceans and seas can't burn and dry them up?

Sure, why not? Do you not know that there will be no need for the sun and the moon in the new heavens and new earth?

Revelation 21:23 The city does not need the sun or the moon to shine on it, for the glory of God gives it light, and the Lamb is its lamp.

Revelation 22:5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.

How does it not? You don't seem to be taking God Himself into account here. The all-powerful God who can do anything.

What is your problem with that exactly? Why do you think things have to be the same way they are now for eternity?

Revelation 21:1 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,” for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” 5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

I showed you this passage before. Did you not read it? What do you think it means when it says "the old order of things has passed away" and what does God mean when He says "I am making everything new"?

He is regenerating the earth when He returns and making it new. I'm not sure what is hard to understand about that.

Yes, He is returning to the earth but He is making it new which is why it's called "the new earth". It will be a place where righteousness dwells (2 Peter 3:13) and no wickedness at all will be allowed there. Your view has sin and death continuing when the new earth is ushered in which I find to be utterly unbelievable.

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@DavidPT
.. nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

For the earnest expectation of the creation waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but because of Him who subjected it on hope, that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
And we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. And not only so, but ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, awaiting adoption, the redemption of our body.
For we are saved by hope. But hope that is seen is not hope; for what anyone sees, why does he also hope for it? But if we hope for that which we do not see, then we wait for it with patience. Romans 8:19-25

Spiritual Jew said:

Do you think God expects us not to care what is written in His Word? I'm honestly a bit baffled by the way you're looking at this. Why was 2 Peter 3 written if we don't need to even care about it?

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So that after it has happened, we can see that it had been prophesied.

RDKirk said:

So that after it has happened, we can see that it had been prophesied.

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It seems to me we won't care about it at that point since it will be over and we should care about it now since it's something we're still looking forward to.

But, anyway, we don't need to talk about this any further since it's beside the point of this thread which is for those who do care about this to discuss how 2 Peter 3:10-12 should be interpreted.

DavidPT said:

Parables don't mean literally as described.

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Obviously. Who doesn't know that?

But even so, what they are depicting still has to count for something.

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Of course.

This parable has Jesus returning to the earth, so that means whatever is meant by Luke 19:27, that is something that takes place after He returned to earth and is dwelling somewhere on the earth.

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It does not say that He returns to the earth as we know it. Your Premil bias is showing yet again. You are adding that to the text. He returns to those who He left to give them a reward, but that doesn't mean He has to return to them on the earth as we know it.

Obviously, but probably not to you though because of your docrtinal bias here, where speaking of that, you seem to think only I or someone like me, can exihibit doctrinal bias at times, but that you can't, this is meaning when He is sitting upon His throne of glory.

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I'm not using doctrinal bias because I'm not adding anything to the text that isn't there like you are. It says He returns to those who He left, but does not say He has to return to them in the same place that He left them. Only doctrinal bias leads to that conclusion.

He obviously does that on the place He returns to, the earth in this case, not some other place instead.

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You're missing His point which is that He comes back to them to reward them. Where He comes to meet them in order to reward them is irrelevant. Also, it seems that you have forgotten something here. We are going to meet Him "in the air", not on the earth. So, are you going to claim that He hasn't returned to them yet when He meets them "in the air" since He's not meeting them on the earth? That would be ridiculous.

So, the fact that we will meet Him "in the air" instead of on the earth proves that your understanding of the parable to be saying He would return to them on the earth is false.

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Why should anyone not think these in verse 31 are coming to the earth, thus the earth then being where He shall he sit upon the throne of his glory?

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Where does it say that it's occurring on the earth? It doesn't. So, how are you thinking you're making any kind of convincing argument here when you have nothing to back up what you're saying?

Revelation 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them.

This shows that the earth passes away before the judgment occurs, so it can't be on the earth as we know it. Maybe on the new earth, I suppose, but not on the earth as we know it now.

Only someone with doctrinal bias could think they are not coming to the earth then that being where He shall sit upon His throne of glory.

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And why is that? It seems clear to me that you are accusing me of doctrinal bias for no reason except that I accuse you of that (and I give support to show why) and not for any good reason.

Even if one agrees the coming is to the earth, that's not all that verse involves, though. It also involves sitting upon the throne of his glory once He has arrived. He has to do that where He is returning to, obviously.

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Why can't it be on the new (renewed) earth? You're not doing anything to show that it has to take place on the earth as we know it as opposed to somewhere else or on the new earth.

This presents a dilemma for Amil.

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No, it doesn't. You're trying so hard to create a dilemma for Amil because you want to so bad, but it's not working.

Because if they have to admit He sits upon His throne of glory on the earth, they then have to admit it is still this present earth not the NHNE,

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No Amil would admit that He sits upon the throne of His glory on the earth as we know it.

or that it's the NHNE except they were wrong about it not coming into existance until after the GWTJ.

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You have misrepresented Amil once again here, but I'll give you a pass this time since this might be a case of you just not realizing what we believe. Or, at least, what I believe. I have never claimed that the new heavens and new earth are not created until the GWTJ is over. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Scripture isn't clear about that. But, I think it's possible that they will have already been created right after Christ returns and before the GWTJ takes place. I don't see that they can't be created until after the GWTJ just because John doesn't write that he sees the new heavens and new earth until after he wrote about the GWTJ. But, either way, no one inherits the new heavens and new earth until the GWTJ is over.

The bottom line is that it could take place on the new earth or somewhere else. Either way works for me. What can't be supported is the idea that it will take place on the earth as we know it since it clearly indicates that the earth will pass away before it takes place.

But, because of doctrinal bias here, Amils aren't going to admit to anything, they are just going to continue to insist it is them that are correct here, and that it is the text that is wrong.

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Because we can back up our beliefs with scripture. You are required to add to scripture while making unfounded assumptions in order to support Premil. And you have to resort to interpreting clearly literal text as non-literal (such as 2 Peter 3) in order to support Premil as well.

No matter what you say, I will believe that you interpret everything with Premil bias and you are not objective. If you disagree, fine, but you won't ever convince me otherwise.

DavidPT said:

Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

Why should anyone not think these in verse 31 are coming to the earth, thus the earth then being where He shall he sit upon the throne of his glory? Only someone with doctrinal bias could think they are not coming to the earth then that being where He shall sit upon His throne of glory. Even if one agrees the coming is to the earth, that's not all that verse involves, though. It also involves sitting upon the throne of his glory once He has arrived. He has to do that where He is returning to, obviously.

This presents a dilemma for Amil.

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The doctrinal bias lies with you David.
You are quick to dismiss that Jesus also said heaven and earth would pass away at his appearing.
You dismiss we are granted the pristine earth from the foundation of the world at his coming.... and you dismiss the wicked are thrown into the LOF that was prepared for the devil and his angels at his coming.

The throne of his glory is the final restoration and glorification of Mankind that he himself came to establish.