Should we value the gift of prophecy today as Paul and Moses did?

Guojing · Dec 31, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
What is your definition of "sign"?

All signs are for the nation Israel (Exodus 4, Psalms 74:9, Judges 6:13)

In the specific case of tongues, tongues are a sign of impending judgment to unbelieving Israel.

Paul made that clear in
1 Corinthians 14:22:

22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. [KJV]

This teaching from Paul came from Isaiah 28 (1 Corinthians 14:21), so to understand what Paul meant there, you have to understand first the context of that chapter.

If you are aware of the context of Isa 28, when Israel rejected God's covenant of the Law, and made fun of the prophet Isaiah who was sent to warn them in Isaiah 28, in judgement, God caused the northern kingdom of Israel to fall to the Assyrians.

The Israelites (the northern kingdom) were so hard-hearted and stubborn in breaching their covenant with God that God sent a judgment upon them (the Assyrian nation – who spoke in the Akkadian language – a foreign language that Israel would not have known) by bringing them into Assyrian captivity.

The northern kingdom of Israel rejected the rest and the covenant relationship from God (Hebrews 3:7-11), hence, God speak to them in foreign tongues.

The causality is hence

If Israel reject the rest and choose unbelief, then God will speak to the nation of Israel in foreign languages which are not understandable to them (the Assyrian language of Akkadian).

The cross reference can be found in Jeremiah 5:15

15 Lo, I will bring a nation upon you from far, O house of Israel, saith the Lord: it is a mighty nation, it is an ancient nation, a nation whose language thou knowest not, neither understandest what they say.

Other cross references include

Deuteronomy 28:49
The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the end of the earth, swooping down like the eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand,

Isaiah 33:19
You will see no more the insolent people, the people of an obscure speech that you cannot comprehend, stammering in a tongue that you cannot understand.

So for that lady in the video you linked to, it is indeed a miracle that God grant her the ability to speak in a foreign language that she has not learnt before.

But since the nation of Israel is currently blinded by God, that won't be a sign to them.

JAL · Jan 1, 2022

Guojing said:
There is no need for him to bring it up, other than what Maria already stated, in 1 Corinthians, he already stated prophecies, word of knowledge, etc, will eventually cease. (1 Corinthians 13:8)

No, that's not what Paul said at all. Read more carefully.

Guojing · Jan 1, 2022

JAL said:
No, that's not what Paul said at all. Read more carefully.

You also have the perspective that the term "perfect" in vs10 means the 2nd coming of Christ?

JAL · Jan 1, 2022

Guojing said:
You also have the perspective that the term "perfect" in vs10 means the 2nd coming of Christ?

No. That passage doesn't mention anything about any gift coming to a stop, neither now nor in heaven. Read it CAREFULLY.

Guojing · Jan 1, 2022

JAL said:
No. That passage doesn't mention anything about any gift coming to a stop, neither now nor in heaven. Read it CAREFULLY.

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Care to share your different interpretation of this verse?

Platte · Jan 1, 2022

I would avoid prophesy and instead preach the Gospel

topher694 · Jan 1, 2022

Platte said:
I would avoid prophesy and instead preach the Gospel

Good News! Those are not adversarial things. You can do both!

JAL · Jan 1, 2022

Guojing said:
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

Care to share your different interpretation of this verse?

- You need to understand that mainstream theologians are Bible scholars. As such, with tunnel-vision they gravitate to Sola Scriptura and thus never really entertain the possibility that Direct Revelation (prophethood) is preeminent in God's Kingdom. Yet consider the biblical EMPHASIS.
1. 1Corinthians has about 90 verses dedicated to discussing Direct Revelation such as prophecy and tongues (chapters 2, 12, 13, 14).

2. 1Corinthians has ZERO CHAPTERS on scholars, seminaries, diplomas, and biblical exegesis.

3. Jesus arrived as The Prophet rebuking the three Sola Scriptura parties of his day - the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the Law. These scholars misunderstood Scripture unlike prophets reliant on Direct Revelation.

1Corinthians is all about maturity. Ask yourself this question. Who were the most mature saints in the Bible? The prophets! Since the Corinthians were immature, the main goal of this epistle is to move them toward maturity (prophethood):

"Follow the way of love, and eagerly desire spiritual things [not 'gifts'] especially the gift of prophecy" (14:1).

Chapter 2 is where Paul initially equates maturity with mature prophethood (although I can't do a full analysis of that chapter here). He begins with this:

"We [apostles and prophets] speak wisdom among the mature" (2:6).

He goes on to call them babes in chapter 3 - totally immature by his (admittedly high) standards.

Chapter 13 is a recapitulation of THAT argument. That is WHY three words from chapter 2 re-appear again in chapter 13:
1. We. Still means "we apostles and prophets".
2. Mature. "Perfect" is a mistranslation of that word mature.
3. Babe

Clearly this passage has NOTHING to do with the future. The ONLY purview is maturity in the here and now. Here's my reading of the Greek:

"Love never ceases. As for prophecies, they will cease; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will cease. For we [apostles and prophets] know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the mature comes, what was in part will cease. When I was a babe, I spoke like a babe, I thought like a babe, I reasoned like a babe. When I became a [mature] man, I ceased from baby things (13:8-11)"

Let's unpack this. Three baby activities are said to "cease" (speaking, thinking, and reasoning) in parallel to three gifts ceasing (prophecy, tongues, and knowledge). However, did the babe ACTUALLY cease from those 3 activities? No! He only ceased from his IMMATURE EXECUTIONS OF THEM. In a word he MATURED. Now here is the clincher. He is mature ONLY to the extent of maturing in those three activities. Likewise the Christian is mature ONLY to the extent of maturing in the 3 activities itemized as prophecy, knowledge, and tongues.

But we already knew that, right? I mean, in terms of maturity would you seriously compare yourself to prophets such as Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Elijah, and the like? (I trust you wouldn't be so arrogant).

Platte · Jan 2, 2022

topher694 said:
Good News! Those are not adversarial things. You can do both!

Actually they definitely can be and usually are adversarial things. That’s why I say stick to the Gospel

topher694 · Jan 2, 2022

Platte said:
Actually they definitely can be and usually are adversarial things. That’s why I say stick to the Gospel

Then you must be reading a different gospel, cause Jesus prophesied. In fact the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Yep, that sounds adversarial to me... not.

Guojing · Jan 2, 2022

JAL said:
- You need to understand that mainstream theologians are Bible scholars. As such, with tunnel-vision they gravitate to Sola Scriptura and thus never really entertain the possibility that Direct Revelation (prophethood) is preeminent in God's Kingdom. Yet consider the biblical EMPHASIS.
1. 1Corinthians has about 90 verses dedicated to discussing Direct Revelation such as prophecy and tongues (chapters 2, 12, 13, 14).

2. 1Corinthians has ZERO CHAPTERS on scholars, seminaries, diplomas, and biblical exegesis.

3. Jesus arrived as The Prophet rebuking the three Sola Scriptura parties of his day - the Pharisees, Sadducees, and teachers of the Law. These scholars misunderstood Scripture unlike prophets reliant on Direct Revelation.

1Corinthians is all about maturity. Ask yourself this question. Who were the most mature saints in the Bible? The prophets! Since the Corinthians were immature, the main goal of this epistle is to move them toward maturity (prophethood):

"Follow the way of love, and eagerly desire spiritual things [not 'gifts'] especially the gift of prophecy" (14:1).

Chapter 2 is where Paul initially equates maturity with mature prophethood (although I can't do a full analysis of that chapter here). He begins with this:

"We [apostles and prophets] speak wisdom among the mature" (2:6).

He goes on to call them babes in chapter 3 - totally immature by his (admittedly high) standards.

Chapter 13 is a recapitulation of THAT argument. That is WHY three words from chapter 2 re-appear again in chapter 13:
1. We. Still means "we apostles and prophets".
2. Mature. "Perfect" is a mistranslation of that word mature.
3. Babe

Clearly this passage has NOTHING to do with the future. The ONLY purview is maturity in the here and now. Here's my reading of the Greek:

"Love never ceases. As for prophecies, they will cease; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will cease. For we [apostles and prophets] know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the mature comes, what was in part will cease. When I was a babe, I spoke like a babe, I thought like a babe, I reasoned like a babe. When I became a [mature] man, I ceased from baby things (13:8-11)"

Let's unpack this. Three baby activities are said to "cease" (speaking, thinking, and reasoning) in parallel to three gifts ceasing (prophecy, tongues, and knowledge). However, did the babe ACTUALLY cease from those 3 activities? No! He only ceased from his IMMATURE EXECUTIONS OF THEM. In a word he MATURED. Now here is the clincher. He is mature ONLY to the extent of maturing in those three activities. Likewise the Christian is mature ONLY to the extent of maturing in the 3 activities itemized as prophecy, knowledge, and tongues.

But we already knew that, right? I mean, in terms of maturity would you seriously compare yourself to prophets such as Moses, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Elijah, and the like? (I trust you wouldn't be so arrogant).

Interesting opinion of yours, as your signature goes. Thanks for sharing.

We have different ways of interpreting scriptures, yours is more from covenant theology, so I understand how we will come to different interpretations of the same passage.

For me, when I read Paul using the term "shall", I take it as a future tense.

When I read Paul saying something will cease, I also take what he says literally.

JAL · Jan 2, 2022

Guojing said:
When I read Paul saying something will cease, I also take what he says literally.

You've asked me several questions. I tried to give you straight answers. Will you do the same for me?

According to your reading of the passage, would you pick choice A below? Or choice B?

(A). The babe ceased from the 3 named activities. He stopped thinking, reasoning, and speaking. And that cessation is what defined his maturation to manhood.

(B) The babe's transition to manhood is marked by GROWING AND MATURING in those three activities.

For me, when I read Paul using the term "shall", I take it as a future tense.

For a babe, reaching maturity (ceasing from baby things in transition to manhood) IS a future event. Right? You don't seem to be making a relevant point here.

Guojing · Jan 2, 2022

JAL said:
You've asked me several questions. I tried to give you straight answers. Will you do the same for me?

According to your reading of the passage, would you pick choice A below? Or choice B?

(A). The babe ceased from the 3 named activities. He stopped thinking, reasoning, and speaking. And that cessation is what defined his maturation to manhood.

(B) The babe's transition to manhood is marked by GROWING AND MATURING in those three activities.

For a babe, reaching maturity (ceasing from baby things in transition to manhood) IS a future event. Right? You don't seem to be making a relevant point here.

I already gave my perspective on tongues here https://www.christianforums.com/thr...ul-and-moses-did.8234161/page-4#post-76444898

So naturally when I encounter a passage in 1 Cor that talks about tongues ceasing, I will come to a different understanding than someone like yourself, who has the covenant theologian view.

Your view on stated B is yours, and I respect that. I happen to not share that same view.

JAL · Jan 2, 2022

Guojing said:
Your view on stated B is yours, and I respect that. I happen to not share that same view.

Clearly I wasn't asking you to tell me what my own stated view is. I think I know that much already. I asked you to tell me whether Scripture lends itself to choice A or B. Evidently you have declined to answer.

So naturally when I encounter a passage in 1 Cor that talks about tongues ceasing, I will come to a different understanding than someone like yourself, who has the covenant theologian view.

I'm not really sure that my discussion of spiritual maturity was predicated specifically and inextricably on Covenant Theology as such. Jesus The Prophet wore a prophetic mantle, an anointing bequeathed, in turn, to the NT apostles and prophets, enabling them to write Scripture, predict future events, pronounce judgments, and perform miracles - the same kinds of capabilities inherent to Jesus The Prophet. While it's true that OT prophets had these same capacities, I think that's actually a point of agreement between the two of us and merely incidental to spiritual maturity as defined in 1Corinthians.

So if you don't like my use of the OT prophets as examples of maturity, just replace those paradigms with Paul, the apostles, and any other major NT prophets (if more existed).

I already gave my perspective on tongues here Should we value the gift of prophecy today as Paul and Moses did?

I agree with most of what you wrote there. The Assyrian language mystified Israel as a sign of judgment. You are overlooking one thing, it seems to me. Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for ALLOWING tongues to mystify their own Christian brethren (and thus causing them to feel ostracized in Assyrian fashion). They SHOULD have waited for an interpreter to demystify the utterances thereby placing the speech on a par with prophetic utterances. Hence he wrote:

"The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified...For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say...If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God." (1Cor 14).

How would I know if an interpreter was present? By Direct Revelation.

He isn't instructing them on how to be effective as a sign of judgment upon Israel but rather on how to properly edify their own Christian brothers.

As a sidenote, we need to be cautious about strictly applying his regulation today. Right now there isn't a superabundance of gifts in the church, hence there's not much to "regulate" (as Howard Ervin has noted). Let us not be like the Pharisees so zealous for the letter of the law that we stifle precious spirituality (viz. discouraging people who are merely trying to pray to their Father in tongues, even without an interpreter).

But I take it you are not inclined to discuss these issues further with me. That's okay.

Guojing · Jan 2, 2022

JAL said:
I agree with most of what you wrote there. The Assyrian language mystified Israel as a sign of judgment. You are overlooking one thing, it seems to me. Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for ALLOWING tongues to mystify their own Christian brethren (and thus causing them to feel ostracized in Assyrian fashion). They SHOULD have waited for an interpreter to demystify the utterances thereby placing the speech on a par with prophetic utterances. Hence he wrote:

"The one who prophesies is greater than the one who speaks in tongues, unless someone interprets, so that the church may be edified...For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say...If anyone speaks in a tongue, two—or at the most three—should speak, one at a time, and someone must interpret. 28If there is no interpreter, the speaker should keep quiet in the church and speak to himself and to God." (1Cor 14).

Tongues are for a sign, and signs are for the nation of Israel.

The Corinthian church was given signs because God was performing signs and wonders among the gentiles to "to alert Israel of the change in dispensation", as I have stated elsewhere

Do Cessationists believe in modern miracles?

So your interpretation of "Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for ALLOWING tongues to mystify their own Christian brethren (and thus causing them to feel ostracized in Assyrian fashion)" will not make sense to me. Nevertheless I respect that view of yours.

JAL · Jan 2, 2022

You've made some rather blanket statements expressed without much in the way of reasonably compelling support. For example you claim:

Guojing said:
Tongues are for a sign, and signs are for the nation of Israel.

Israel alone? Paul wrote:

"18I will not venture to speak of anything except what Christ has accomplished through me in leading the Gentiles to obey God by what I have said and done— 19by the power of signs and wonders, through the power of the Spirit of God" (Romans 15).

Paul was clear that the ONLY way to properly preach the gospel, whether to Israel or to other nations, is via signs and wonders:

"4My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power, 5so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God’s power" (1Cor 2).

The Corinthian church was given signs because God was performing signs and wonders among the gentiles to "to alert Israel of the change in dispensation", as I have stated elsewhere

Do Cessationists believe in modern miracles?

Why are you putting words in Paul's mouth? Why not let him speak for himself? In the passages I just cited, Paul says that he leveraged signs and wonders to both germinate and sustain saving faith, presumably with intent to rescue men from the fires of hell. And more than that. He even writes:

"18Some of you have become arrogant, as if I were not coming to you. 19But I will come to you very soon, if the Lord is willing, and then I will find out not only how these arrogant people are talking, but what power they have. 20For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power (1Cor 4).

That last statement refers to an EMPIRICAL DEMONSTRATION of charismatic power, because he needs to visit them in order to see it. And he claims that a successfully established kingdom-on-earth is DEFINED by such empirical exhibitions of power. How then can Israel be the only locus of signs and wonders? You've contemplated a few sign-related incidents in Israel and then (unjustifiably) INFERRED exclusivity to Israel. You've made a rather huge leap without much to back it up.

So your interpretation of "Paul is rebuking the Corinthians for ALLOWING tongues to mystify their own Christian brethren (and thus causing them to feel ostracized in Assyrian fashion)" does not make sense to me.

That was Gordon Fee's reading, and I think it's pretty solid. Funny you seem to feel the right to extrapolate Paul's words in any way you choose, but when I myself form an opinion on the Assyrian issue, you suddenly balk and bristle. That seems a bit one-sided and narrow-minded.

One thing seems clear: 1Cor 14 values tongues as a means of edification on a par with prophecy, if an interpreter is present. In this capacity it has NOTHING to do with your (wild) speculation that tongues only serves "to alert Israel of the change in dispensation." Here is what Paul said earlier:

"Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom...to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, a and to still another the interpretation of tongues" (1Cor 12).

Tongues are for the common good of the brethren. Show me where that passage limits the gift to a sign of judgment on Israel, much less for the exclusive purpose of hoping "to alert Israel of the change in dispensation."

Why should I indulge in wild speculations unsupported by the context and seemingly at explicit variance with it?

Guojing · Jan 2, 2022

JAL said:
That was Gordon Fee's reading, and I think it's pretty solid. Funny you seem to feel the right to extrapolate Paul's words in any way you choose, but when I myself form an opinion on the Assyrian issue, you suddenly balk and bristle. That seems a bit one-sided and narrow-minded.

One thing seems clear: 1Cor 14 values tongues as a means of edification on a par with prophecy, if an interpreter is present. In this capacity it has NOTHING to do with your (wild) speculation that tongues only serves "to alert Israel of the change in dispensation." Here is what Paul said earlier:

"Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom...to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, a and to still another the interpretation of tongues" (1Cor 12).

Tongues are for the common good of the brethren. Show me where that passage limits the gift to a sign of judgment on Israel, much less for the exclusive purpose of hoping "to alert Israel of the change in dispensation."

Why should I indulge in wild speculations unsupported by the context and seemingly at explicit variance with it?

No wonder, Gordon Fee is well known for his strong beliefs in signs and wonders, even for today in the Body of Christ.

I will naturally disagree with those views of his.

As for my beliefs on tongues, I have already stated my views, with scripture reference here, which you have already read, here

Should we value the gift of prophecy today as Paul and Moses did?

so why are you still asking me for "passage limits the gift to a sign of judgment on Israel"?

JAL · Jan 2, 2022

Guojing said:
No wonder, Gordon Fee is well known for his strong beliefs in signs and wonders, even for today in the Body of Christ.

I will naturally disagree with those views of his.

As for my beliefs on tongues, I have already stated my views, with scripture reference here, which you have already read, here

Should we value the gift of prophecy today as Paul and Moses did?

so why are you still asking me for "passage limits the gift to a sign of judgment on Israel"?

Because none of those passages you cited lends substantial support to your views. As I stated, you noticed a few sign-related verses pertaining to Israel and decided to INFER exclusivity. You're putting words in the mouth of the biblical authors. Which is bad enough when they are silent on the points in question. What makes it worse is that Paul is NOT silent on the issues at hand. He EXPLICITLY tells us that signs and wonders serve purposes beyond the effort "to alert Israel of the change in dispensation."

Guojing · Jan 2, 2022

JAL said:
As I stated, you noticed a few sign-related verses pertaining to Israel and decided to INFER exclusivity. You're putting words in the mouth of the biblical authors. Which is bad enough when they are silent on the points in question.

Since you disagree with my view, of course you will feel that way. I can explain my view to you but I cannot make you understand where I am coming from, if you don't wish to.

Let me ask you a simple question, when you read a scripture verse like Psalms 74:9, for example

9 We see not our signs

Do you try to understand this verse literally?

Saint Steven · Jan 2, 2022

Guojing said:
It depends on whether one also think that the test for prophets, as stated in Deuteronomy 18:20-22, still applies today.

If that applies, then so does "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth".

Should we value the gift of prophecy today as Paul and Moses did?

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