Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Gundy22

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Isa 66:22

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isa 66:23

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Isa 66:24

And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
 
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hedrick

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"You will never get out UNTIL you have paid the last penny."
(But there is a point in time when the last penny is paid.)
Beaten with few stripes - beaten with many stripes - in those cases there is still ultimately a LAST STRIPE.
Aionian time can be looked at til one is blue in the face - but there are indicators that denote PERPETUITY other than aionian -

"worm dieth not" "fire that is never quenched". Not much wiggle room there.

ECT is not pleasant to think about. Best to AVOID IT - not try to talk it into non-existence
I’m not entirely sure what point you’re making. You’re right that some of Jesus’ stories implied finite punishment.

I’m convinced that aionian should be translated “eternal.” But there are plenty of Biblical examples where things are called eternal that aren’t literally so. As Der Alte has pointed out, those contexts are normally when we’re dealing with supernatural things, not mundane matters. But hell sounds supernatural to me.

The worm that doesn’t die is more complex than I thought originally. In the original context of Is 66, the worms are eating the dead bodies. So this isn’t torture. However in the NT we have to consider the 1st Cent context. Apparently this passage was used by Jews for Gehenna, and Gehenna was commonly (though not always) considered eternal in a sense that sounds literal. The problem though is that even though Gehenna were eternal, people weren’t necessarily stuck there forever. Indeed some authorities thought almost everyone eventually got out.

I agree with Der Alter than when Jesus used terms and concepts that seem to match those of 1st Cent Judaism, it’s reasonable to assume that he meant them the same way. There was quite a variety in 1st Cent Judaism, but typically it was thought that some people were so evil that they stayed in Gehenna, some were good enough that they went directly to eternal life, but most were intermediate. They went to Gehenna and got out.

According to my Bible search program, worms are used once, In Mark 9:48. Not only is it not crystal clear that it was describing eternal suffering, but the context seems to be hyperbole. At least most people don’t think Jesus really intended people to take out their eyes.

The use of things like “the last penny” suggest that Jesus’ talk of judgement at least sometimes referred to finite punishment. Unfortunately it’s not obvious when that’s the case, nor does he say anything about the distinction or what happens to those who don’t get out.

At this point I can only fall back on his general teaching about God’s mercy even to his enemies, and hope that he didn’t intend ECT. I think ECT is inconsistent with the vision of the end in 1 Cor 15, but I do have to warn that interpreters commonly think 1 Cor 15 is really about what happens to Christians, and may not be a complete picture.

This leaves me with an ambiguous situation. That’s not great, but I find doctrinaire versions of all three of the alternatives unconvincing. I think one can reasonably read Paul and mostly John as seeing eternal life as a gift of God to those who have faith, and for the rest there is simply death. But that’s only my best conjecture.
 
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Bruce Leiter

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What is it about universal redemption that annoys so many Christians? Shouldn’t we be happy that God’s love and mercy are wider, higher, deeper, and broader than we could ever imagine? We all sin at times so shouldn't we welcome the thought that God is not going to annihilate or eternally torment us if we don't “accept,” “trust,” “repent,” “believe,” well enough to appropriate the grace of God?

You would think so but it seems from the recent threads on Christian Universalism that this is not the case. Why is this?

Here are some of the reasons that have been expressed in the threads:

1. ”If everyone is or will be saved, what’s the point in following Jesus?”

To me, anyone who thinks this must see following Jesus as a heavy burden, one that needs the reward of heaven to make it worth the hassle. But shouldn't following Jesus and having a good relationship with him here and now be its own reward?

It's also a misunderstanding of Christian Universalism to think it says that we don't have to receive the saving grace of Christ in order to be reconciled to God and to each other. It just says that if we don't manage to do this in this life there will be boundless opportunities to do so in the next one and that eventually every one will accept forgiveness and repent of their sins... ”that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth" (Phil 2:10)

2. "All my hard work at being a Christian has been undermined".
This is very much like 1. Shouldn't any work we do be done out of love for God, not for any personal eternal rewards?

3. ”If there is an 'us,' there has to be a 'them'"
This may be true about some things such as football: I support Manchester United so I hate Manchester City (I'm from the UK, apologies) but it needn't apply to matters of faith. If we are going to heaven when we die there doesn't have to be a group who go to hell.

These three reasons seem to have something in common and that's judgementalism. They're all essentially saying "Look, I'm a good Christian and my hard work and sacrifices has earned me membership into the very exclusive club of heaven and, sad to say it, but most other people haven't done anywhere nearly as enough as me and so, unfortunately, missed out on the opportunity." This makes you think of the work vs. faith debate ironically but, moving swiftly on from that, isn't it true that being judgemental is wrong and if that's the main reason behind our objection to Christian Universalism, shouldn't we consider that we might be misunderstanding it?

There are biblical arguments that can be made for and against Christian Universalism but there are plenty of existing threads discussing that so, assuming anyone wants to respond!, I'd be more interested in hearing what your gut, visceral reaction is, whether for or against, when you hear the words "Christian Universalism". For me, it's basically relief that God is a loving God and not a monster after all.

Your beginning premise is faulty. We can never believe "well enough to appropriate the grace of God."

What wrong with your words? The grace of God is completely free with no strings attached. Look at Ephesians 2:1-10 to find out that we're all dead to God when we're stillborn to him at our beginning (verses 1-3), he makes us alive to him by grace through faith (verses 4-9), and then he enables us to live for him in gratitude (verse 10).

Why doesn't God create the new birth in everyone? He certainly has the power to do it. A seminary professor said, God can save all humans, but he doesn't. There must be a good reason, which doesn't have anything to do with our efforts or character. However, he hasn't revealed that reason to us in the Bible.
 
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Saint Steven

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Why doesn't God create the new birth in everyone? He certainly has the power to do it. A seminary professor said, God can save all humans, but he doesn't. There must be a good reason, which doesn't have anything to do with our efforts or character. However, he hasn't revealed that reason to us in the Bible.
How could there EVERY be a good reason for not saving everyone? What if he chose NOT to save you? Can you think of a good reason?
 
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Gundy22

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Point I am making, hedrick - is that it seems too close to call, at times.
Certain judgements do indicate a time of ending, or release.

Worm dieth not - fire not quenched is ambiguous if looking at "dead bodies cannot hurt" - but I don't really know how to take it
gehenna upon gehenna - it all seems a bit confusing
DA has other thoughts of what gehenna is other than the standard "trash heap burning outside of town" idea
 
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Der Alte

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I appreciate the link to Greek Orthodox NT, DA
I have an Orthodox Study Bible - whose OT is Septuagint-based, but whose NT is just a New King James Version
There are some similarities between EOB and KJV but they don't appear to be identical.
 
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Lazarus Short

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That is a novel approach, find a version that you like and decide that it is uncorrupted.

I said I liked it. I did not say it was perfect or free of "corruption." I'm sure the version has its critics.
 
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Lazarus Short

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We must go with the preponderance of the evidence.

In case you missed it, I did a read-through of the KJV, trying consciously to have no bias, and in that process, became convinced that UR was the best explanation for afterlife events and destinies. If you still cling to ECT, it is your loss.
 
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Saint Steven

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Avatar has been changed to Merlin - he is half great pyrenee & half German shepherd
I still can't get these pics right - he is not really a small dog
Thanks for trying. - lol
You may need to start with a larger original. (bigger pixel dimension - at least 200 x 200 pixels - which you can scale when you upload)
 
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Der Alte

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Point I am making, hedrick - is that it seems too close to call, at times.
Certain judgements do indicate a time of ending, or release.
Worm dieth not - fire not quenched is ambiguous if looking at "dead bodies cannot hurt" - but I don't really know how to take it
gehenna upon gehenna - it all seems a bit confusing
DA has other thoughts of what gehenna is other than the standard "trash heap burning outside of town" idea
The "standard 'trash heap burning outside of town'" did exist but it was not the Ge Hinnom, valley of Hinnom, it was the next valley over the "Kidron valley."
The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
http://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/ted...Articles/BSac-NT/Scharen-GenenaSyn-Pt1-BS.htm
…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources
Miqweh of Second Temple Period. ......Jerusalem City-Dump in the Late Second Temple Period, ZDPV, 119/1 (2003),
The chance discovery of an Early Roman city dump (1st century CE) in Jerusalem has yielded for the first time ever quantitative data on garbage components that introduce us to the mundane daily life Jerusalemites led and the kind of animals that were featured in their diet. Most of the garbage consists of pottery shards, all common tableware, while prestige objects are entirely absent. Other significant garbage components include numerous fragments of cooking ovens, wall plaster, animal bones and plant remains. Of the pottery vessels, cooking pots are the most abundant type.
…..Most of the refuse turns out to be “household garbage” originating in the domestic areas of the city, while large numbers of cooking pots may point to the presence of pilgrims. Significantly, the faunal assemblage, which is dominated by kosher species and the clear absence of pigs, set Jerusalem during its peak historical period apart from all other contemporaneous Roman urban centers.
...
Recently, the contemporaneous city-dump was identified on the eastern slope of the south-eastern hill of Jerusalem in the form of a thick mantle (up to 10 m, 200,000 m3 ) (Reich and Shukron 2003). The dump is located roughly 100 m outside and south-east of the Temple Mount on the eastern slope of the Kidron Valley (fig. 1), and extends at least 400 m and is 50–70 m wide. Large amounts of pottery and coins date the dump to the Early Roman period (the 1st century BCE and the 1st century CE up to the destruction of the city by the Romans in 70 CE). A preliminary study of the garbage (Bouchnik, Bar-Oz and Reich 2004; Bouchnik et al. 2005) showed the presence of animal bones.
https://www.researchgate.net/public...udy_of_the_City-Dump_of_Early_Roman_Jerusalem
Jerusalem’s Garbage
 
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Gundy22

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Afterlife events and destinies are classified according to professional Los Angeles sports teams.
LAKERS believe in a literal Lake of Fire as destination for unbelievers. CLIPPERS believe that when the cord of life mentioned in Ecclesiastes is clipped - you just die when you die. DODGERS seek another way out between Endless Burning and annihilation. CHARGERS believe you can burn up electrically like an eternal electric chair. I am a DODGER.
 
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Lazarus Short

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A new heavens and new earth being made - yet still the undying worm and unquenchable fire...

Yet, Jesus the Christ boasts that He makes ALL things new.

I don't know about the worms, but the unquenchable fire is unquenchable because it is Godfire, for I have found that all fires in the Bible are either natural or Godfire. "Hellfire" is a misnomer.
 
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