Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?

Presbyterian Continuist · Nov 26, 2021

swordsman1 said:
I agree that the purpose of miracles in the 1st century was to authenticate the early church leaders and the message their brought. However I don't believe miracles are still necessary today, even on the mission field. By their miracles the apostles have now been fully authenticated as truly God's messengers, along with their writings, the bible, which is all we need to develop our faith. If people want to see evidence of miracles to prove that Christianity is true they only have to read the first 5 books of the New Testament.

The trouble is that the pagan societies don't believe in the Bible, or even know what it is. And many of our western societies are turning neo-pagan and view the Bible as being irrelevant to them. This is why a Bible-based presentation of the Gospel goes just in one ear and out the other and hits nothing in between. A Bible-based Gospel had power in a society where the Bible was known and respected as a true account of the nature, character and purposes of God. This was why is was relatively easy to get someone converted to Christ back then by just showing the salvation Scriptures in the Bible. That is what happened to me in 1966. The guy who witnessed to me showed me verses in the Bible which I believed and they were instrumental in me knowing that I needed Christ as Saviour.

But in my experience with sharing the Gospel with atheists and other pagans who did not have any respect for the Bible was quite different. I felt helpless, because I had no way of convincing them of the truth of the Gospel other than the Bible. This made the Bible useless in trying to convince these ones that the Gospel was true and that they should turn to Christ.

What we also have in many of our churches, are "liberal" religious people who view the Bible as just a religious book that shows how to live according to Christian values, but that much of the Bible is myth, that God is not a real person, that Jesus is the "Christ of faith" and not a real Jesus of history, that the virgin birth never happened, that there were no miracles and no resurrection of Christ. So, their version of the Gospel is for unchurched people to join the religious club, learn how to be a good person, look after the planet and save the whales, and hug a tree once in a while!

Paul knew about this when he preached the gospel to the Athenians on Mars Hill. He knew that he could not use the Hebrew Scriptures because they had no background in it. He came from a different direction -to show that there is a God who created the world, and that one day we will all have to account to Him for the way we live our lives. He even quotes one of their own poets, who was actually speaking about Jupiter "not being far from any one of us", but Paul substituted the true God who created the world instead. What Paul did was to influence their consciences about God without using the Scriptures. He got some results but not many. The record shows that there were no signs and wonders performed at that time.

So for pagan cultures, and our rapidly developing neo-pagan society, we need something more than words in a book, even it is the Bible. It is shown in Acts that when Paul preached the Gospel, miracles accompanied his preaching. When he told the Corinthians that he did not come to them with the enticing words of man's wisdom, but in the power and demonstration of the Spirit of God. Also, when the Apostles first went out to preach the Gospel it said that the Lord worked with them, confirming His Word with signs and wonders. So, to be honest, we need to have the Lord working still with Gospel preachers, to confirm His Word with signs and wonders. If it turned the pagan world upside down in the 1st Century, why can't the same happen in our neo-pagan societies?

The problem is that we were saddled with a formalised, ceremonial, apostate church for 1000 years until the Reformation, and most of our churches have still not recovered from the formalism and ritual, with church services more or less still conforming to the pattern of the apostate church. So, either we have at one extreme, churches that are not far removed from the RCC liturgical structure, and at the other extreme self-indulgent churches participating in all kinds of froth and bubble with jerking, shaking, falling down, and other uncontrolled manifestations. And so all the time our society is becoming more and more pagan each year. A former prime minister of New Zealand declared, "We are no longer a Christian country". So what is the alternative? A neo-pagan country!

So, these are the problems we face when it comes to trying to influence the unconverted to turn to Christ. We need something more than just words to confirm the preaching of the Gospel. Quoting Bible verses in order to achieve some magical result won't cut the mustard. So what can we do? We will have to go back to the Book of Acts and see how the Holy Spirit did it and to find out how He can do it again for us today.

klutedavid · Nov 26, 2021

Oscarr said:
The trouble is that the pagan societies don't believe in the Bible, or even know what it is. And many of our western societies are turning neo-pagan and view the Bible as being irrelevant to them. This is why a Bible-based presentation of the Gospel goes just in one ear and out the other and hits nothing in between. A Bible-based Gospel had power in a society where the Bible was known and respected as a true account of the nature, character and purposes of God. This was why is was relatively easy to get someone converted to Christ back then by just showing the salvation Scriptures in the Bible. That is what happened to me in 1966. The guy who witnessed to me showed me verses in the Bible which I believed and they were instrumental in me knowing that I needed Christ as Saviour.

But in my experience with sharing the Gospel with atheists and other pagans who did not have any respect for the Bible was quite different. I felt helpless, because I had no way of convincing them of the truth of the Gospel other than the Bible. This made the Bible useless in trying to convince these ones that the Gospel was true and that they should turn to Christ.

What we also have in many of our churches, are "liberal" religious people who view the Bible as just a religious book that shows how to live according to Christian values, but that much of the Bible is myth, that God is not a real person, that Jesus is the "Christ of faith" and not a real Jesus of history, that the virgin birth never happened, that there were no miracles and no resurrection of Christ. So, their version of the Gospel is for unchurched people to join the religious club, learn how to be a good person, look after the planet and save the whales, and hug a tree once in a while!

Paul knew about this when he preached the gospel to the Athenians on Mars Hill. He knew that he could not use the Hebrew Scriptures because they had no background in it. He came from a different direction -to show that there is a God who created the world, and that one day we will all have to account to Him for the way we live our lives. He even quotes one of their own poets, who was actually speaking about Jupiter "not being far from any one of us", but Paul substituted the true God who created the world instead. What Paul did was to influence their consciences about God without using the Scriptures. He got some results but not many. The record shows that there were no signs and wonders performed at that time.

So for pagan cultures, and our rapidly developing neo-pagan society, we need something more than words in a book, even it is the Bible. It is shown in Acts that when Paul preached the Gospel, miracles accompanied his preaching. When he told the Corinthians that he did not come to them with the enticing words of man's wisdom, but in the power and demonstration of the Spirit of God. Also, when the Apostles first went out to preach the Gospel it said that the Lord worked with them, confirming His Word with signs and wonders. So, to be honest, we need to have the Lord working still with Gospel preachers, to confirm His Word with signs and wonders. If it turned the pagan world upside down in the 1st Century, why can't the same happen in our neo-pagan societies?

The problem is that we were saddled with a formalised, ceremonial, apostate church for 1000 years until the Reformation, and most of our churches have still not recovered from the formalism and ritual, with church services more or less still conforming to the pattern of the apostate church. So, either we have at one extreme, churches that are not far removed from the RCC liturgical structure, and at the other extreme self-indulgent churches participating in all kinds of froth and bubble with jerking, shaking, falling down, and other uncontrolled manifestations. And so all the time our society is becoming more and more pagan each year. A former prime minister of New Zealand declared, "We are no longer a Christian country". So what is the alternative? A neo-pagan country!

So, these are the problems we face when it comes to trying to influence the unconverted to turn to Christ. We need something more than just words to confirm the preaching of the Gospel. Quoting Bible verses in order to achieve some magical result won't cut the mustard. So what can we do? We will have to go back to the Book of Acts and see how the Holy Spirit did it and to find out how He can do it again for us today.

Very well written and very accurate.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 26, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
But then you face the issue of denominational assumptions and interpretations.

Are Catholics right?

Are Eastern Orthodox right?

Are Biblical Unitarians right?

Are SDAs right?

Are Mormons right?

Are Pentecostals right?

Are Continuationists right?

Are Cessationists right?

Is any other option right?

The Bible is my starting point and not a denomination.
While these denominational groups claim to follow the Bible, I can show you how their other beliefs contradict the Bible.

As for certain beliefs like Continuationism and Cessationism: How can we determine the truth on these kinds of beliefs? Well, again, we look to the Bible to establish the truth. What position has more biblical backing? Continuationism or Cessationism? I tend to find that Continuationists do not regard Scripture the same way I do when it comes to this topic because they already have a pre-conceived bias to their experiences outside of the Bible.

Take for example your ignoring the point of the Scriptures that talk about how Paul is the last apostle. That’s a fact of Scripture or the Bible. So this shows us that at least the gift of apostleship has ceased because Paul is referred to as the last apostle.

You said:
Which of the options above would you say is 100% right?

Not all Cessationists are correct. Remember, I told you before that Calvinists believe in Cessationism, and yet I am strongly against Calvinism. It does not mean we don’t agree on a particular belief. Many Christians believe in the Trinity. This is core tenet or doctrine of Christianity and yet that does not mean that Christians cannot be in great error over other kinds of beliefs.

You said:
So your 100% confidence comes from a "conversion experience" + apologetics, right?
Which of the two was the main contributing factor? When did you reach the 100% confidence level for the first time?

Why isolate just one point in my life? Is that not ignoring the truth? My whole life (as a believer) should be taken into account involving my walk with God and my study of His Word. That would be the whole truth if you desire to have the whole truth on things. Isolating truth just to just one point in my life and ignoring truth in another part of my life will not give you the complete picture of the truth that you should know or seek after.

You said:
As my username clearly suggests, I'm a truth seeker. Christianity seems to be in my opinion the closest to the truth, from what I've been able to investigate so far.

If you have not accepted Jesus as your Savior, I would encourage you to do so with the following tract.

Chick.com: This Was Your Life

If after you accept the Lord Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, I would encourage you to check out my Blogger article on evidences that back up the Bible here:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

You said:
Yes, I'm well aware of the Toronto Blessing and the whole Kundalini Spirit controversy. My conservative take is that discernment is always key, that you can't put God in a box and that everything has be judged on case-by-case basis. That said, seeing people go crazy and barking like dogs definitely raises red flags for me.

I am glad. This is the dangers of Continuationism in my book (even though my Pentecostal friend knows that these experiences are not of God). Then again, I do not agree with the interpretations on Pentecostals in that they believe there is a private prayer language mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14. It’s just does not exist with a normal reading of the text. It’s all invented. So this where we disagree. The Bible is my authority and not experiences outside of God’s Word. God’s Word is trustworthy. Visions by some person or speaking in some kind of language that nobody understands is not trustworthy - IMO.

I mean, when you get car insurance, would you go to the shady looking beat up building that offers car insurance or would you go with the company that most people have and have said good things about it?

TruthSeek3r · Nov 26, 2021

swordsman1 said:
I believe the Bible is God's word by the Holy Spirit convincing me it is so.

When was the first time the Holy Spirit convinced you that the Bible is God's word?
How do you know it was the Holy Spirit, and not just your emotions or your brain playing tricks on you?

swordsman1 said:
As the Westminster Confession explains....

We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the Church to an high and reverend esteem of the Holy Scripture. And the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is, to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man’s salvation, the many other incomparable excellencies, and the entire perfection thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God: yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our heart. (I.5)

So you do appeal to other people's testimonies after all, don't you?
Tons of continuationists also report the inward work of the Holy Spirit. Why should I believe your testimony instead of the testimonies of continuationists?

swordsman1 said:
And J I Packer....

God authenticates Holy Scripture to us as his Word—not by some mystical experience or secret information privately whispered into some inner ear,

How does he know that?

swordsman1 said:
not by human argument alone (strong as this may be), nor by the church’s testimony alone (impressive as this is when one looks back over two thousand years). God does it, rather, by means of the searching light and transforming power whereby Scripture evidences itself to be divine. The impact of this light and power is itself the Spirit’s witness “by and with the Word in our heart.” Argument, testimony from others, and our own particular experiences may prepare us to receive this witness, but the imparting of it, like the imparting of faith in Christ’s divine Saviorhood, is the prerogative of the sovereign Holy Spirit alone.

Same points again:

So you do value other people's testimonies after all, right?
This quote also appeals to some sort of self-authenticating experience. A continuationist could say the same thing, that he/she also has had self-authenticating experiences showing them that the gifts of the Spirit continue.

swordsman1 said:
The illumination of the Spirit witnessing to the divinity of the Bible is universal Christian experience, and has been so from the beginning, though many Christians have not known how to verbalize it or to handle the Bible in a manner consistent with it.

So you appeal to the "universal experience of Christians", i.e., the experiences of people, i.e., testimonies. Or in your own words, hearsay. But no worries, I can't blame you, because that's exactly what I've been doing myself too -- analyzing and drawing conclusions from testimonies.

And regarding personal experiences with the Holy Spirit, here are a few additional testimonies from continuationists that you might find of interest:

Carl Emerson's testimony is also very enlightening: Jesus's Ministry

Bible Highlighter · Nov 26, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
When was the first time the Holy Spirit convinced you that the Bible is God's word?

How do you know it was the Holy Spirit, and not just your emotions or your brain playing tricks on you?

So you do appeal to other people's testimonies after all, don't you?

Tons of continuationists also report the inward work of the Holy Spirit. Why should I believe your testimony instead of the testimonies of continuationists?

How does he know that?

Same points again:

So you do value other people's testimonies after all, right?

This quote also appeals to some sort of self-authenticating experience. A continuationist could say the same thing, that he/she also has had self-authenticating experiences showing to them that the gifts of the Spirit continue.

So you appeal to the "universal experience of Christians", i.e., the experiences of people, i.e., testimonies. Or in your own words, hearsay. But no worries, I can't blame you, because that's exactly what I've been doing myself too -- analyzing and drawing conclusions from testimonies.

And regarding personal experiences with the Holy Spirit, here are a few additional testimonies from continuationists that you might find of interest:

From BUDDHA to CHRIST

Is the Bible ENOUGH? What about HEARING God? Want a manual without a radio?

40 days fast led by the Holy Spirit

Word of knowledge testimony

(Clip) Testimony of Being Filled with the Holy Spirit by Zac Poonen

Patricia da Silva Costa Salvation Testimony Born Again - saved from witchcraft

Is Speaking in Tongues Real? (A Former Skeptic's Perspective)

New Age to Christianity // My Supernatural Experience with God

My Testimony, Prophecy, a Baptist Church

My testimony -Jesus changed my life!

Craig Keener: From Atheism to Christianity

Holy Spirit Baptism and Speaking in Tongues: My Testimony: Q&A

BAPTISM of the HOLY SPIRIT*personal testimony* | new prayer language | boldness

My experiences with the Holy Spirit

A Call To Repentance Through John Mulinde's Testimony Jesus Is Coming Back

My testimony of Jesus Christ changing my life from routine christian to true follower of Christ

My Testimony / God Spoke To Me For 3 Hours

I HADN'T CRIED IN YEARS, BUT WHEN THE LORD SHOWED UP IN THAT ROOM, I COULDN'T STOP CRYING

Best of FOTM - Doug met Jesus in PERSON.

HERE'S WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN AN ATHEIST GETS SURROUNDED WITH 80 PRAYING RUSSIANS!

Kim Walker-Smith and Michael Koulianos "My Encounter with God"

"I SAW JESUS!" - MUSLIM Converts to CHRISTIANITY - Powerful Testimony!

My Testimony Finding Jesus - New Age to Christian

TRUE FREEDOM IN BAPTISM - HAVE NOW BAPTIZED 13 OTHERS! - THIS IS THE LIFE!

My Testimony: I saw Jesus

From The New Age to Christ: my testimony.

Carl Emerson's testimony is also very enlightening: Jesus's Ministry

The Bible talks about how there are those who preach another Jesus or another gospel. There are near death experiences by people who say they seen Jesus and Heaven, etc. but none of these experiences match up exactly. The Bible is God’s Holy Word and there are many evidences that back it up as being divine in origin.

Please take the time to check out my Blogger article on the many evidences that back up God’s Word as being true.

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

The moment a person is born again by the Word of God (Scripture), they are forever changed by the Spirit and they want to live according to His Word. The Word of God becomes alive to them and it is not a dead book to be questioned. One thing we know is that prophecy is fulfilled by Scripture and it’s always historically accurate. Medical Science, biblical numerics, and much much more proves the Bible’s accuracy and trustworthiness.

There are people who like the idea of Jesus, but they toss out the Bible (With them not knowing that the Bible is how we truly know about Jesus accurately).

Jesus (as described in the Holy Bible) has been proven to be not only a credible witness, but a messenger from God. In all His teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Mt. 5:17-18; 8:17; 12:40-42; Lk. 4:18-21; 10:25-28; 15:29-31; 17:32; 24:25-45; Jn. 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” The apostles quoted 209 times from the Old Testament and considered it “the oracles of God.” The Old Testament in hundreds of places predicted the events of the New Testament; and as the New Testament is the fulfillment of, and testifies to the genuineness and authenticity of the Old Testament, both Testaments must be considered together as the Word of God (because of the many evidences backing them up).

But you need to take that step of faith in trusting God and His Word.
Accept Jesus as your Savior according to the Holy Bible, and do not accept some New Age version of Jesus by some guy’s vision.

Do not accept some whacky guy’s vision amongst a sea of other whacky men’s visions whereby they all differ in beliefs in how Jesus should be. This is why you need one standard on how Jesus really is. God provided this standard of truth that cannot be altered like the shifting sand of men’s words or stories. It’s the Holy Bible. People have been changed by this book. Men seek to distort this book. Men seek to attack this book. For it is the Word of God. It speaks with power and authority. For the Bible is the book above all other books.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 26, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
When was the first time the Holy Spirit convinced you that the Bible is God's word?

How do you know it was the Holy Spirit, and not just your emotions or your brain playing tricks on you?

So you do appeal to other people's testimonies after all, don't you?

Tons of continuationists also report the inward work of the Holy Spirit. Why should I believe your testimony instead of the testimonies of continuationists?

How does he know that?

Same points again:

So you do value other people's testimonies after all, right?

This quote also appeals to some sort of self-authenticating experience. A continuationist could say the same thing, that he/she also has had self-authenticating experiences showing to them that the gifts of the Spirit continue.

So you appeal to the "universal experience of Christians", i.e., the experiences of people, i.e., testimonies. Or in your own words, hearsay. But no worries, I can't blame you, because that's exactly what I've been doing myself too -- analyzing and drawing conclusions from testimonies.

And regarding personal experiences with the Holy Spirit, here are a few additional testimonies from continuationists that you might find of interest:

From BUDDHA to CHRIST

How I encountered Jesus in my bedroom - from religion to relationship

Is the Bible ENOUGH? What about HEARING God? Want a manual without a radio?

40 days fast led by the Holy Spirit

Word of knowledge testimony

(Clip) Testimony of Being Filled with the Holy Spirit by Zac Poonen

Patricia da Silva Costa Salvation Testimony Born Again - saved from witchcraft

Is Speaking in Tongues Real? (A Former Skeptic's Perspective)

New Age to Christianity // My Supernatural Experience with God

My Testimony, Prophecy, a Baptist Church

My testimony -Jesus changed my life!

Craig Keener: From Atheism to Christianity

MEETING JESUS! My Testimony! You won’t believe like what?!!

Holy Spirit Baptism and Speaking in Tongues: My Testimony: Q&A

BAPTISM of the HOLY SPIRIT*personal testimony* | new prayer language | boldness

My experiences with the Holy Spirit

A Call To Repentance Through John Mulinde's Testimony Jesus Is Coming Back

My testimony of Jesus Christ changing my life from routine christian to true follower of Christ

My Testimony / God Spoke To Me For 3 Hours

I HADN'T CRIED IN YEARS, BUT WHEN THE LORD SHOWED UP IN THAT ROOM, I COULDN'T STOP CRYING

Best of FOTM - Doug met Jesus in PERSON.

HERE'S WHAT CAN HAPPEN WHEN AN ATHEIST GETS SURROUNDED WITH 80 PRAYING RUSSIANS!

Kim Walker-Smith and Michael Koulianos "My Encounter with God"

"I SAW JESUS!" - MUSLIM Converts to CHRISTIANITY - Powerful Testimony!

My Testimony Finding Jesus - New Age to Christian

TRUE FREEDOM IN BAPTISM - HAVE NOW BAPTIZED 13 OTHERS! - THIS IS THE LIFE!

My Testimony: I saw Jesus

From The New Age to Christ: my testimony.

My First Experience Speaking in Tongues and Interpretation

MY STORY: NEW AGE, WITCHCRAFT AND DEMONIC ATTACKS TO WARRIOR FOR JESUS!!

Carl Emerson's testimony is also very enlightening: Jesus's Ministry

Jesus said that we are not only to receive Him, but we must also receive His words, too.
For if we do not receive the words of Jesus, those words will judge us on the last day.

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.” (John 12:48).

Only the Holy Bible is the only accurate source of receiving the words of Jesus. The words of Jesus are not found in trying to piece together accounts of people who said they seen Jesus talk to them in some kind of vision or dream. Their reports have not shown to be true or trustworthy like the Holy Bible. Most of these other experiences of people who claimed to talk to Jesus say something that will contradict the Bible in some way. That is why we know they are not legit. Also, the moment you start down the road of hunting for Jesus in visions by other people, you really do not have any standard of truth that is consistent like the Bible. The Bible breathes as a cohesive whole and it is consistent. Then again, you have to taste of God’s Word to truly know that. You have to be born again spiritually by the Holy Spirit and be born again by water (Which is by the Word of God, i.e. the Scriptures).

Side Note:

Please keep in mind that there are many who claim to believe the Bible and they say they accept it, but they find a way to reject certain portions of it by clinging to beliefs by a man invented church that they want to be true (that fits their version of how God should be). In other words, you will find that the consistent theme is that man hates God’s Word. Men do not like it even if they claim to believe in His Word. So don’t follow the crowd of rejecting God’s Word. Trust in God and His Word. It’s the only thing that will get you through this life. A man’s vision will not help you. Only God can help you in this life by His Word.

klutedavid · Nov 26, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The Bible is my starting point and not a denomination.
While these denominational groups claim to follow the Bible, I can show you how their other beliefs contradict the Bible.

As for certain beliefs like Continuationism and Cessationism: How can we determine the truth on these kinds of beliefs? Well, again, we look to the Bible to establish the truth. What position has more biblical backing? Continuationism or Cessationism? I tend to find that Continuationists do not regard Scripture the same way I do when it comes to this topic because they already have a pre-conceived bias to their experiences outside of the Bible.

Take for example your ignoring the point of the Scriptures that talk about how Paul is the last apostle. That’s a fact of Scripture or the Bible. So this shows us that at least the gift of apostleship has ceased because Paul is referred to as the last apostle.

Not all Cessationists are correct. Remember, I told you before that Calvinists believe in Cessationism, and yet I am strongly against Calvinism. It does not mean we don’t agree on a particular belief. Many Christians believe in the Trinity. This is core tenet or doctrine of Christianity and yet that does not mean that Christians cannot be in great error over other kinds of beliefs.

Why isolate just one point in my life? Is that not ignoring the truth? My whole life (as a believer) should be taken into account involving my walk with God and my study of His Word. That would be the whole truth if you desire to have the whole truth on things. Isolating truth just to just one point in my life and ignoring truth in another part of my life will not give you the complete picture of the truth that you should know or seek after.

If you have not accepted Jesus as your Savior, I would encourage you to do so with the following tract.

Chick.com: This Was Your Life

If after you accept the Lord Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior, I would encourage you to check out my Blogger article on evidences that back up the Bible here:

Love Branch: Evidences for the Word of God

I am glad. This is the dangers of Continuationism in my book (even though my Pentecostal friend knows that these experiences are not of God). Then again, I do not agree with the interpretations on Pentecostals in that they believe there is a private prayer language mentioned in 1 Corinthians 14. It’s just does not exist with a normal reading of the text. It’s all invented. So this where we disagree. The Bible is my authority and not experiences outside of God’s Word. God’s Word is trustworthy. Visions by some person or speaking in some kind of language that nobody understands is not trustworthy - IMO.

I mean, when you get car insurance, would you go to the shady looking beat up building that offers car insurance or would you go with the company that most people have and have said good things about it?

Which fruit of the Holy Spirit has ceased?

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Romans 8:23
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.

Philippians 1:11
Having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 26, 2021

klutedavid said:
Which fruit of the Holy Spirit has ceased?

Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

Romans 8:23
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit.

Philippians 1:11
Having been filled with the fruit of righteousness which comes through Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God.

You are barking up the wrong tree. Obviously gifts and fruit are not the same thing.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 26, 2021

Cessationism:
Tongues, Prophecy, and the Gift of Miracles Have Ceased.
(Note: This does not mean miracles have ceased, but it means that the gift of healing or the gift of miraculous gifts and prophecy as seen in the early church has ceased).

Important Note:
Please keep in mind that I am not claiming that all brothers and sisters are automatically liars if they believe they have done genuine miracles or they have seen what they believe to be genuine miracles. I am always open to the possibility that God may operate miraculously today on rare occasions. I am also aware that I am human and fallible and I would not want to speak against the true working of the power of God today. So unless I see or witness a group's miracles and beliefs, I am not claiming all who claim to be working by God's power today are not genuine. In fact, there is a brother I feel close with who believes that he operates by God's power and miracles. I cannot honestly say how God is operating in His life. But yet I know the Bible tells me that miraculous gifts have ceased, though. Perhaps for us, it is a matter of perspective. In either case, here is my Biblical case for Cessationism (The ceasing of miraculous gifts given to the apostles).

Tongues and prophecy have ceased ~ 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. Verse 8 says, “...whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;” and verse 8 says, “whether there be tongues, they shall cease;” The question is when do tongues and prophecies cease? Verse 10 says “ when that which is perfect is come”; And verse 11 says, “when I became a man, I put away childish things.” Are we going to be children (and not men) upon this Earth until Christ takes us home?
Both 1 Corinthians 13 and James 1 describe something that is “perfect” and “looking into a mirror.” In 1 Corinthians 13, that which is “perfect” (neuter in the Greek) fits the reference to the “Perfect law of liberty” (James 1:25) (Which would also be neuter). The law of the Lord is “perfect” (Psalms 19:7). All Scripture (the Bible) is profitable so that the man of God may be “perfect” unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). James 1:23 and 1 Corinthians 13:12 both describe the Bible as a mirror/glass that we see our reflection in. Some people look into a mirror and forget their physical appearance. Some people look into the Bible mirror and forget their spiritual appearance. Therefore, Glass / Mirror = Perfect = The Word of God. 1 Corinthians 13:12 describes the "perfect" as a glass mirror, just as James 1:23 does. 2 Corinthians 3:18 also shows the glass, and hence the perfect to be the Word of God, which transforms us. It says: "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord" (Also see verse 15 in the same chapter). As we look into God's Word and we see Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit transforms us into the very image of Jesus Christ. "We all" means all believers, seeing in the Bible/glass, the glory of the Lord. "Open face" means that we can hide nothing from God; We must be open and honest with Him.
Tongues were for a sign that the Jews looked for. 1 Corinthians 1:22 says, “For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:” But Jesus says, “ An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign;” (Matthew 12:39). Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. (1 Corinthians 14:22). "In the law it is written, with men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people (Jews); and yet for all that (all the tongues) will they (Jews) not hear me (warning ignored), saith the Lord". 1 Corinthians 14:21. Tongues here clearly are a warning to the Jews that they ignore. 1 Corinthians 14:21 is quoting from Deuteronomy 28:49 where God warns of judgment coming from "a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand."
The three greatest prophets and miracle workers in the Bible are Moses, Elijah, and Jesus. We see that the miracles that they performed were a way to authenticate them as a messenger from GOD and the Word of God that they provided (that would be immortalized into Scripture). We notice that after each of these prophets, there was a time of silence where no miracles were done. Just like with the prophets Moses, Elijah, and Jesus, miracles authenticated the apostles' message as from God. "And they (apostles) went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the Word with signs (tongues, prophecies, healing, etc.) following. Amen." Mark 16:20. Today the need for tongues and miracles has ceased. God has authenticated the apostles and the New Testament that they penned. This proves the temporary nature of tongues and miracles.
We can see that after the book of Acts, the gifts no longer operated in Paul’s life like they once had. The sign gifts, tongues, prophecy, the gift of healing, etc. were operating all through the Book of Acts, and these gifts are mentioned in the letters that Paul wrote during the Acts period. But when we turn to the letters written after the Book of Acts—the 4 Prison Epistles, and the 3 Pastoral Epistles, we find that the sign gifts either aren’t mentioned at all or we see—as with the gift of healing—that they were no longer operating in Paul’s life. What he could do in Acts 28, he could no longer do in Philippians, or in 1 and 2 Timothy. He could heal all the sick on the island in Acts 28:9, but he couldn’t heal any of his closest co-workers—Timothy, Epaphroditus, Trophimus—after the close of the Book of Acts (See this article here for the full explanation).
Notice that both 1 Corinthians 13:11 and Ephesians 4:13 equate attaining fullness of knowledge with becoming a perfect or mature man. What have childish things got to do with temporary gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge? Answer: Paul is comparing a human advancing from childhood to adulthood, with the church passing from infancy in the first century marked by prophecy, tongues and knowledge gifts to maturity marked by believers depending on the Bible, faith, hope and charity from 96 AD to the rapture. By 96 AD the childish gifts of prophecy, tongues and knowledge had ceased, and church manhood had been reached. A man comes to fulness of the knowledge of Christ by Scripture; For all Scripture is profitable for doctrine that the man of God may be perfect unto every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17). (Note: Back in the early church, the gift of knowledge was the giving of special revelation of either history, and or doctrine that the apostles did not have on their own; In the OT, Moses received the gift of knowledge to pen the details of history in the Torah; In the NT, Certain men of God (in the early church) had received new knowledge from God to teach new doctrine, like Peter, James, John, and Paul etc. so as to write inspired Scripture).
While God can heal people directly Himself today, the gift of miracles is not given to any one believer that we know today. No Charismatic can always heal. Yet, the Bible says that they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. This means 100% recovery all the time. No one can do this today, as the apostles could in Acts 5:12-16. "By the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people.....they (believers) brought forth the sick into the streets.....and they were healed every one". (Acts 5:16).
New revelation (prophecy) or new words from God are not to be added (Revelation 22:18-19). If a person were to add to God’s Word, the plagues that are within the book known as the Bible (not the plagues in Revelation) would be added to them. We have occurrences of this actually happening. See these two links here: Bible Correctors lose Voice Bible Corrector Loses Voice on Ankerberg Show
The Apostles and Prophets were merely the foundation built upon the foundation of Jesus. “For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone;” (Ephesians 2:18-20). We are said to have access by one Spirit unto the Father that is build upon the “foundation” of the apostles and prophets. Being an apostle is a gift (See 1 Corinthians 12:28-31). The qualifications of being an apostle was to have seen the risen Lord Jesus Christ (See Acts of the Apostles 1:22-26). Paul said he met the qualifications as being an apostle because he had seen the risen Lord. 1 Corinthians 9:1 “…Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord?” Paul called himself the “last prophet.” (1 Corinthians 15:8-9). Paul says that God has set forth the apostles last (1 Corinthians 14:9).

10. The context of I Corinthians is rebuking 13 errors, such as tongues, and it is not recommending tongues. The Corinthian church was filled with problems that Paul corrects in this book, such as:

(a) They were following their favourite human leaders causing divisions. 1:11-14
(b) " " favouring human wisdom. 1:18-2:13
(c) " " carnal, living for self, not controlled by the Spirit. 2:14-3:7
(d) " " forgetting the future Judgment Seat of Christ. 3:8-23
(e) " " proud, thinking of themselves more highly than they ought. 4:1-21
(f) " " failing to discipline, by tolerating a fornicator. 5:1-13
(g) " " taking fellow believers to court. 6:1-20
(h) " " confused about marriage. 7:1-40
(i) " " confused about liberty thinking it meant licence to do as they please, even stumbling others. 8 ,9 ,10.
(j) " " confused about clothing, long hair on men and Lord's Supper. 11
(k). " " confused about spiritual gifts, especially tongues. 12-14
(l) " " confused about the resurrection. 15
(m) " " confused about the collection. 16

As we can see the Corinthian church was deep in error and false doctrine. It was the only church that emphasized tongues as today's Charismatics do. Charismatics therefore place themselves in very bad company. Charismatics fail to understand that Paul is not endorsing tongues, but is rebuking the wrong use of tongues and is strongly regulating tongues contrary to today's Charismatics. Today's emphasis on assemblies with more than on person speaking at the same time is plainly wrong (1 Corinthians 14:27). Paul feared that even one person speaking in tongues without proper interpretation would give the appearance of barbarians or insanity (1 Corinthians 14:11) (1 Corinthians 14:23). What would he think of today's mass hysteria? Today's spontaneous, wild use outside of Scriptural limits is wrong. The gift of prophecy, far superior in every way to tongues, was under the control of the prophets For it is written: “Remember that people who prophesy are in control of their spirit and can take turns.” (1 Corinthians 14:32) (NLT). So Paul's repeated instructions about the right use of the gift of tongues required it to be a very controllable gift, not a force or power controlling the user. Paul valued 5 words with the understanding rather than 10,000 words without the understanding (i.e. tongues)! So Preaching is far superior in God's purpose and for the churches' profit (1 Corinthians 14:19) (1 Corinthians 14:39). The gifts had a purpose and a place in time. They were to authenticate the church and the New Covenant. But seeing that which is "perfect" has come (the Bible), we do not need any more revelation. The Bible has all the revelation or instruction that we need today.

klutedavid · Nov 26, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
You are barking up the wrong tree. Obviously gifts and fruit are not the same thing.

Gifts, fruit, and ministries, all the same Holy Spirit.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 26, 2021

klutedavid said:
Gifts, fruit, and ministries, all the same Holy Spirit.

Right, but if Holy Spirit inspired Scripture teaches that certain gifts have ceased (and I believe they do), then that is God’s prerogative to do so. God made a change with the Incarnation. God made a change with having the Scriptures being printed as one book (i.e. the Holy Bible). Surely He can continue to change and do new things.

klutedavid · Nov 27, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Right, but if Holy Spirit inspired Scripture teaches that certain gifts have ceased (and I believe they do), then that is God’s prerogative to do so. God made a change with the Incarnation. God made a change with having the Scriptures being printed as one book (i.e. the Holy Bible). Surely He can continue to change and do new things.

The testimony of Jesus and prophecy are interlinked.

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 27, 2021

klutedavid said:
The testimony of Jesus and prophecy are interlinked.

Revelation 19:10
Then I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Do not do that; I am a fellow servant of yours and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus; worship God. For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

And where do we get the testimony of Jesus today? By Scripture and not some whacko vision from some person who said they seen Jesus. In fact, I remember a little girl (named Kramarik) who said she drawn Jesus from her visions. The problem is that she made him look like a white European. Jesus is clearly not a white European. He is an ancient Jew and He would have looked like people of that region.

klutedavid · Nov 27, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
And where do we get the testimony of Jesus today? By Scripture and not some whacko vision from some person who said they seen Jesus. In fact, I remember a little girl (named Kramarik) who said she drawn Jesus from her visions. The problem is that she made him look like a white European. Jesus is clearly not a white European. He is an ancient Jew and He would have looked like people of that region.

I believe that the Holy Spirit will be far more active today, than in the past. Given the increasing secular nature of modern society.

I have witnessed the power of the Holy Spirit working within churches and I do not understand your reluctance. To believe in the power of the Holy Spirit in every believer's life.

At different times, even in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit performs miracles.

It is impossible to accept Jesus but deny the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

TruthSeek3r · Nov 27, 2021

@Bible Highlighter What are your thoughts on these testimonies and books?

Testimonies of miraculous healings:

Has anyone received a miracle/healing or know someone who has?
Patricia da Silva Costa Salvation Testimony Born Again - saved from witchcraft (read the description of the video)
Cases of Healed Blindness and Raised from the Dead
Keener Matthew03 Clip01 MiracleClaims Widespread
Former Kundalini Yoga Teacher Reveals All (Mike Shreve)
Metal Healing Story
Healed of scoliosis | New Creation Church
Healed of a Brain Tumor and Deliverance Ministry Testimony ~ Cast Out Demons
Sisters we prayed for totally healed of rumathoid arthritis and cancer in the uterus in JESUS name
Talkin' Healing, Deliverance, and Street Evangelism with EYA Report (From May 7th 2021)!
Muslim man gets healed by Jesus at a mall, and testifies!
Muslim only by name finds Jesus. Psychedelic, spiritual realms. Jesus saved me.My personal testimony (guy claims to have been healed at some point in the video, don't remember the exact second)

Books collating stories of miracles:

The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural: https://www.amazon.com/Case-Miracles-Journalist-Investigates-Supernatural/dp/0310259185
Miracles : 2 Volumes: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts: https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-volumes-Credibility-Testament-Accounts-ebook/dp/B007KOI2PY/
The Miracles: A Medical Doctor Says Yes to Miracles!: https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Medical-Doctor-Says-Yes/dp/B007RXEG58
Stories of Divine Healing: Supernatural Testimonies that Ignite Faith for Your Healing: https://www.amazon.com/Stories-Divine-Healing-Supernatural-Testimonies-ebook/dp/B07GCPSHQB/
Miracles: Eyewitness to Some of the Greatest Miracles of Our Time: https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-R-W-Shambach/dp/0768428300/
Why I Am Still Surprised by the Power of the Spirit: Discovering How God Speaks and Heals Today: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Still-Surprised-Power-Spirit/dp/031010811X

Bible Highlighter · Nov 27, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
@Bible Highlighter What are your thoughts on these testimonies and books?

Testimonies of miraculous healings:

Has anyone received a miracle/healing or know someone who has?

Patricia da Silva Costa Salvation Testimony Born Again - saved from witchcraft (read the description of the video)

Cases of Healed Blindness and Raised from the Dead

Keener Matthew03 Clip01 MiracleClaims Widespread

Former Kundalini Yoga Teacher Reveals All (Mike Shreve)

Metal Healing Story

Healed of scoliosis | New Creation Church

Healed of a Brain Tumor and Deliverance Ministry Testimony ~ Cast Out Demons

Sisters we prayed for totally healed of rumathoid arthritis and cancer in the uterus in JESUS name

Talkin' Healing, Deliverance, and Street Evangelism with EYA Report (From May 7th 2021)!

Muslim man gets healed by Jesus at a mall, and testifies!

Muslim only by name finds Jesus. Psychedelic, spiritual realms. Jesus saved me.My personal testimony (guy claims to have been healed at some point in the video, don't remember the exact second)

Books collating stories of miracles:

The Case for Miracles: A Journalist Investigates Evidence for the Supernatural: https://www.amazon.com/Case-Miracles-Journalist-Investigates-Supernatural/dp/0310259185

Miracles : 2 Volumes: The Credibility of the New Testament Accounts: https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-volumes-Credibility-Testament-Accounts-ebook/dp/B007KOI2PY/

The Miracles: A Medical Doctor Says Yes to Miracles!: https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-Medical-Doctor-Says-Yes/dp/B007RXEG58

Stories of Divine Healing: Supernatural Testimonies that Ignite Faith for Your Healing: Amazon.com

Miracles: Eyewitness to Some of the Greatest Miracles of Our Time: https://www.amazon.com/Miracles-R-W-Shambach/dp/0768428300/

Why I Am Still Surprised by the Power of the Spirit: Discovering How God Speaks and Heals Today: https://www.amazon.com/Why-Still-Surprised-Power-Spirit/dp/031010811X

I will repeat what I said to you another thread:

Many believers today seem to blur the line between God doing a miracle in His timing vs. the sign gifts given to the apostles for the early church (Which have ceased). There is a difference between the two.

An example of a sign gift would be an apostle of Jesus who has the early church gift of healing and who is able to heal others 100% of the time. There is no apostle alive today who is able to do what the early apostles did. The Bible talks about how Peter healed those who were sick by his shadow. We do not know of any claims of this happening whereby a man of God can heal 100% of the time every time.

The best we got is prayer and sometimes God will heal a person but this would not be a guaranteed healing, and this would not involve the healing of amputees.

Also, while there is no doubt that God can still do miracles today, we also know that the devil can do false wonders or miraculous things, too.

Exodus 7:10-11 says, “…and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments.”

“And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light” (2 Corinthians 11:14).

For we know that what took place at the Toronto Blessing was not of God because they spoke like animals and convulsed on the ground, etc. So if that church did not change and they claimed to do miracles, we would know that they are not miracles by God. We also can tell if a church teaches extremely false doctrine contrary to the Holy Bible, and yet they experienced miracles as a part of their services or personal testimonies… This would again most likely be false miracles. Then there are the obvious fakes who put on a show of false miracles like with Bill Johnson from Bethel Church in Redding California.

You implied in this thread that you are still seeking the truth when I asked you when you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Savior. You believe Christianity to be the closet to the truth according to what you said in this thread. Before you can be able to discern these things properly, you need to accept Jesus as your Savior according to hearing the words from the Holy Bible if you have not done so since the last time we talked in this thread (recently). You need to accept the Bible as the Word of God, friend. For faith comes by hearing, and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17); And Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6). Note: This would be the Jesus as described in the Bible and not Jesus described in some whacko guy’s vision who had a near death experience or something.

So I encourage you to take that step of faith in God’s Word. Read the gospel of John. Then believe that you have sinned against a holy God and you need Jesus Christ to save you from your sins by calling upon Jesus to save you. Believe that Jesus died for yours sins, He was buried, and risen three days later according to the Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). Then follow Jesus according to the Holy Bible and not what men say about Jesus in some vision or dream, or near death experience.

Bible Highlighter · Nov 27, 2021

klutedavid said:
I believe that the Holy Spirit will be far more active today, than in the past. Given the increasing secular nature of modern society.

This does not specifically address what I actually stated. I said,

“And where do we get the testimony of Jesus today? By Scripture and not some whacko vision from some person who said they seen Jesus. In fact, I remember a little girl (named Kramarik) who said she drawn Jesus from her visions.” ~ Bible Highlighter - post #193.

Do you believe Jesus really looks like the drawings by the little girl named Kramarik?
Does Scripture say we should make images of Jesus?
What about Colton Burpo? Do you believe he really seen Jesus in the afterlife?

You said:
I have witnessed the power of the Holy Spirit working within churches and I do not understand your reluctance. To believe in the power of the Holy Spirit in every believer's life.

At different times, even in the Old Testament the Holy Spirit performs miracles.

It is impossible to accept Jesus but deny the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

First, nowhere did I ever claim that God does not do miracles today or that God does not have power operating today. I believe the Spirit changes the hearts of men (Which would be a power of the Holy Spirit). So your statement in that I deny the power of the Holy Spirit is simply a false accusation.

Second, I have no doubt that God can do miracles today.

I am skeptical of those who claim to do miracles if either:

(a) That church has extremely false doctrine.
(b) They behave like those at the Toronto blessing (barking, convulsing, screaming, etc.).
(c) They are obvious fakes (looking to only deepen their own pockets).

Last I recall, we debated over the topic of OSAS. I believe that to be an extremely false doctrine because it leads believers to treat God’s grace as a license for immorality in some way (See: Jude 1:4). Yes, there are some churches who say that you must live holy for OSAS to be true, but the problem is that a person can think they are saved before they confess of their sins to the Lord. But 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So if a church is teaching that a believer can sin and still be saved, I have my doubts that God is doing genuine miracles in that kind of church. Remember Matthew 7:22-23?

“Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:22-23).

swordsman1 · Nov 27, 2021

Oscarr said:
The trouble is that the pagan societies don't believe in the Bible, or even know what it is. And many of our western societies are turning neo-pagan and view the Bible as being irrelevant to them. This is why a Bible-based presentation of the Gospel goes just in one ear and out the other and hits nothing in between. A Bible-based Gospel had power in a society where the Bible was known and respected as a true account of the nature, character and purposes of God. This was why is was relatively easy to get someone converted to Christ back then by just showing the salvation Scriptures in the Bible. That is what happened to me in 1966. The guy who witnessed to me showed me verses in the Bible which I believed and they were instrumental in me knowing that I needed Christ as Saviour.

But in my experience with sharing the Gospel with atheists and other pagans who did not have any respect for the Bible was quite different. I felt helpless, because I had no way of convincing them of the truth of the Gospel other than the Bible. This made the Bible useless in trying to convince these ones that the Gospel was true and that they should turn to Christ.

What we also have in many of our churches, are "liberal" religious people who view the Bible as just a religious book that shows how to live according to Christian values, but that much of the Bible is myth, that God is not a real person, that Jesus is the "Christ of faith" and not a real Jesus of history, that the virgin birth never happened, that there were no miracles and no resurrection of Christ. So, their version of the Gospel is for unchurched people to join the religious club, learn how to be a good person, look after the planet and save the whales, and hug a tree once in a while!

Paul knew about this when he preached the gospel to the Athenians on Mars Hill. He knew that he could not use the Hebrew Scriptures because they had no background in it. He came from a different direction -to show that there is a God who created the world, and that one day we will all have to account to Him for the way we live our lives. He even quotes one of their own poets, who was actually speaking about Jupiter "not being far from any one of us", but Paul substituted the true God who created the world instead. What Paul did was to influence their consciences about God without using the Scriptures. He got some results but not many. The record shows that there were no signs and wonders performed at that time.

So for pagan cultures, and our rapidly developing neo-pagan society, we need something more than words in a book, even it is the Bible. It is shown in Acts that when Paul preached the Gospel, miracles accompanied his preaching. When he told the Corinthians that he did not come to them with the enticing words of man's wisdom, but in the power and demonstration of the Spirit of God. Also, when the Apostles first went out to preach the Gospel it said that the Lord worked with them, confirming His Word with signs and wonders. So, to be honest, we need to have the Lord working still with Gospel preachers, to confirm His Word with signs and wonders. If it turned the pagan world upside down in the 1st Century, why can't the same happen in our neo-pagan societies?

The problem is that we were saddled with a formalised, ceremonial, apostate church for 1000 years until the Reformation, and most of our churches have still not recovered from the formalism and ritual, with church services more or less still conforming to the pattern of the apostate church. So, either we have at one extreme, churches that are not far removed from the RCC liturgical structure, and at the other extreme self-indulgent churches participating in all kinds of froth and bubble with jerking, shaking, falling down, and other uncontrolled manifestations. And so all the time our society is becoming more and more pagan each year. A former prime minister of New Zealand declared, "We are no longer a Christian country". So what is the alternative? A neo-pagan country!

So, these are the problems we face when it comes to trying to influence the unconverted to turn to Christ. We need something more than just words to confirm the preaching of the Gospel. Quoting Bible verses in order to achieve some magical result won't cut the mustard. So what can we do? We will have to go back to the Book of Acts and see how the Holy Spirit did it and to find out how He can do it again for us today.

If people in our pagan world have hardened hearts towards the gospel then trying to impress them with purported miracles will not make any difference. The Pharisees saw Christ's miracles occurring right in front of their eyes, yet still they refused to accept Him. Our job is to sow the seed, nothing more. Some of that seed will fall on the path, some on rocky soil, some among thorn bushes. That's not our problem. It is to be expected that not everyone who hears the gospel will be saved.

The so called miracles that people conjure up today to try to win people do more harm than good. They are nothing like the miracles that the apostles performed. What are claimed to be miracles are nothing of the sort.

Usually the only evidence for a healing is hearsay - nothing but an unsubstantiated story - even in an age where everyone carries a video camera on their cell phone. They never actually get to see the miracle taking place such as withered arms regrowing or a lifelong paralytics walking from their wheelchairs or cataracts sudden clearing.

It is a fact that the vast majority of people who are prayed for are not healed, so rather than being led to Christ by experiencing a miracle they are left feeling that God has failed them. Most people in wheelchairs or suffering from visibly incurable conditions never even manage to reach the stage - they are turned away by the ushers. The few that are claimed to be healed are usually only suffering from minor, unverifiable or psychosomatic illnesses such as back pain, depression, or migraines - ailments that can often disappear by the placebo effect. Worst of all are the miracles that are clearly fake, such as the leg-lengthening parlour trick performed by people like Todd White.

The savvy unbeliever will recognise there is no substance to these claims, and instead of turning to Christ in awe and wonder, they will walk away convinced that Christianity is nothing but a sham.

swordsman1 · Nov 27, 2021

TruthSeek3r said:
When was the first time the Holy Spirit convinced you that the Bible is God's word?

When I became a believer.

TruthSeek3r said:
How do you know it was the Holy Spirit, and not just your emotions or your brain playing tricks on you?

If it was my just my emotions playing tricks on me then the experience would not last. But my conviction that the Bible is the word of God has remained with me from the when I first became a believer right up to this very day.

TruthSeek3r said:
So you do appeal to other people's testimonies after all, don't you?

When the Westminster Confession refers to the "testimony of the Church", it is not referring to people standing up in church giving testimonies. It is referring to the testimony of two thousand years of Church growth and success with the Bible at its forefront.

It is saying that influential though that fact is (along with all the other evidence for the Bible being divinely inspired) the ultimate persuasion is the Holy Spirit's inward witness convincing us it is God's word.

TruthSeek3r said:
Tons of continuationists also report the inward work of the Holy Spirit. Why should I believe your testimony instead of the testimonies of continuationists?

I'm not asking to you believe me. You asked how I know the Bible is God's word and I've told you. If you don't believe what I said that's fine my me.

TruthSeek3r said:
This quote also appeals to some sort of self-authenticating experience. A continuationist could say the same thing, that he/she also has had self-authenticating experiences showing them that the gifts of the Spirit continue.

They could but they don't. They usually appeal to external happenings such as alleged tongues and healings and claim these are examples of the New Testaments gifts of the Spirit. But the truth is they do not match the biblical descriptions of those gifts.

TruthSeek3r said:
So you appeal to the "universal experience of Christians", i.e., the experiences of people, i.e., testimonies. Or in your own words, hearsay. But no worries, I can't blame you, because that's exactly what I've been doing myself too -- analyzing and drawing conclusions from testimonies.

No, you have read it wrong. It is saying the inward witness of the Spirit is an experience universal to all Christians.

TruthSeek3r said:
And regarding personal experiences with the Holy Spirit, here are a few additional testimonies from continuationists that you might find of interest:

From BUDDHA to CHRIST

How I encountered Jesus in my bedroom - from religion to relationship

Is the Bible ENOUGH? What about HEARING God? Want a manual without a radio?

40 days fast led by the Holy Spirit

Word of knowledge testimony

(Clip) Testimony of Being Filled with the Holy Spirit by Zac Poonen

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TruthSeek3r · Nov 27, 2021

swordsman1 said:
If it was my just my emotions playing tricks on me then the experience would not last. But my conviction that the Bible is the word of God has remained with me from the when I first became a believer right up to this very day.

Then what about life-long converts to Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam, etc., or even continuationist branches of Christianity? Are they rational too in trusting their religious convictions on the basis that they have not changed their minds since the first day they believed?

swordsman1 said:
When the Westminster Confession refers to the "testimony of the Church", it is not referring to people standing up in church giving testimonies. It is referring to the testimony of two thousand years of Church growth and success with the Bible at its forefront.

So you consider the 1600 years of pre-Reformation Christianity a success?
So you trust the testimony of the Catholic Church, with all its miracle accounts?
Isn't "the testimony of the Church" the sum total of the individual testimonies of individual Christians? How can you trust a "collective testimony" if you distrust each individual testimony?

swordsman1 said:
They could but they don't. They usually appeal to external happenings such as alleged tongues and healings and claim these are examples of the New Testaments gifts of the Spirit. But the truth is they do not match the biblical descriptions of those gifts.

There are testimonies where the descriptions definitely match. As an example, Acts 2 involved xenoglossy, and reports of xenoglossy definitely exist. Here is a very recent one. Here is another.

swordsman1 said:
And here are some YouTube testimonies of UFO abductions. If you believe a miracle occurs on the basis of a YouTube testimony then you must also believe these accounts of aliens performing experiments on people inside their spaceships.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=5r1ZTfOm-_Y
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqVdg2zESE4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zTUspQlS8E
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPsq1OA6NwM
www.youtube.com/watch?v=_WAj1yDByp4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=93elxGqDZKg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKoEIIH-_is
www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8vzgbiBFbY
www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5Da_50LNbk
www.youtube.com/watch?v=6e5Lf3nvTmU
www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6peE7pzKjA

Great! It will take me a while, but I hope to post a reply in due time with an analysis of each one. Stay tuned!

Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Well-Known Member

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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