Romans 8 agrees with James 2

fli · Nov 26, 2021

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. NIV

Both 8:1 and 8: 4 are correct. Verse 8:1 states the same as John 3:18. Verse 2 the law of Spirit of life is: “if one has the Spirit of Jesus they have eternal life.” Paul ended chapter 7 by saying that in his mind he served the law. If a Christian agrees with God that the law is good and attempts to obey that law then the “law of sin and death” is fulfilled in them. In Chapter 8 we will see just what happens to a Christian that does not serve the law with his mind.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NKJV

You are correct if you say that Paul is describing an ungodly person. Romans 4:5 Paul stated that God justifies the ungodly. Paul is describing Christians that do not serve the law of S&D with their mind. They have their heart set on carnal things. If you do not believe that Paul can be describing Christians read 1Corinthians. In chapter 5 of that epistle the young man engaged with immoral sex with his step mother was saved. If he was not Paul would not have said to turn him over to Satan. People who are unsaved cannot be turned over to Satan as they are already in his kingdom. In addition in chapter 11 Paul describes some Corinthians who were getting drunk and eating all the bread at the Lord's supper. They to were saved because Paul states they were being disciplined by God and some had “went to sleep” which is Paul's way of stating that Christians had died and are with the Lord.

In verse 6 Paul stated to be carnal minded is death. This is true. Christians in 1Corinthians “went to sleep” under God's discipline. They died temporally -not eternal death.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, 10B but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

Verse 10 every Christian has the Spirit of Christ or they are not saved. With the Spirit of Christ the body is dead because all Christians, even those who serve the law of S&D with their mind, still sin daily. Now in verse 2 above Paul stated the “law of the Spirit of life” has set us free of the law of S&D. As long as a person has the Spirit of Jesus they have eternal life even though the body might die. Verse 10B that is what Paul means by the Spirit is life because of righteousness. It's Jesus righteousness not ours.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." NKJV

Paul could only be speaking to Christians in verse 13. The Spirit does not work in unbelievers. By works of the law no flesh will be justified so they would need to accept Jesus and put to death the sins of the flesh. He could only be referring to believers. Therefore, Paul is speaking of temporal death. Verse 14 if a person is being led by the Spirit they are sons of God. These are the sons who will hear “well done good and faithful servant.” Those sons who die under discipline are sons that God is not so proud of.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe — and tremble!

Paul as he was walking down the Damascus road to kill Christians believed in one God. He believed that he was doing that one God's work. We believe that the one God sent His Son to save the world. We put our trust in Jesus. Yes! The demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the savior of the world. They rubbed elbows with Jesus before He kicked them out of heaven for disobedience. Hebrews 2: 16 Jesus does not save the angels, good or bad.

James 2: 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 23 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. NKJV

Genesis 15:6 Abraham was justified prior to Ishmael's birth. Romans 4: 10 Abraham was circumcised at age 99 and Ishmael was 13. Then it was many more years before he offered Isaac on the altar. So Abraham was righteous long before offering Isaac. Verse 22 Abraham's faith was perfected by his act. Verse 23 Abraham's faith was fulfilled the same as in Roman's 8: 4 where the requirements of the law are fully met (fulfilled) in those who believe in Jesus and walk in the Spirit. So Abraham was righteous prior to offering Isaac. Because he listened to God, walked in the Spirit, he fully met the law of sin and death.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. NKJV\

Paul explained the process in Romans 8: 9-13 without the Spirit of the Father a Christian dies. When a Christian dies they go to be with the Lord. Faith has done it's work. We see what we hope for. Faith is dead.

James and Paul are in agreement. A believer that has no works is walking according to the flesh. God will discipline the person. If they do not repent discipline will result in death and faith is dead. In James 2: 14 he asks if faith without works can save a person. The answer is yes.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, NKJV

BobRyan · Nov 26, 2021

fli said:
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. NIV

...

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NKJV

Very good points made in those texts.

Romans 2:13 agrees with James 2.

Rom 2:13
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law instinctively perform the requirements of the Law, these, though not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of mankind through Christ Jesus.

James 2:
21 Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was Rahab the prostitute not justified by works also when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Matt 7:
16 You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes, nor figs from thistles, are they? 17 So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits. 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

1 John 2:
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever follows His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says that he remains in Him ought, himself also, walk just as He walked.

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is keeping the Commandments of God"

Including the ones where "the first commandment with a promise" is "honor your father and mother" Eph 6:2

Davy · Nov 26, 2021

fli said:
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. NIV

Both 8:1 and 8: 4 are correct. Verse 8:1 states the same as John 3:18. Verse 2 the law of Spirit of life is: “if one has the Spirit of Jesus they have eternal life.” Paul ended chapter 7 by saying that in his mind he served the law. If a Christian agrees with God that the law is good and attempts to obey that law then the “law of sin and death” is fulfilled in them. In Chapter 8 we will see just what happens to a Christian that does not serve the law with his mind.

Let's pay closer attention to what Apostle Paul really said in those Romans 8 verses, because Paul put conditions in that...

Rom 8:1-4
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV

Two Conditions Paul shows there:
1. walking after the flesh
2. walking after The Spirit

In Galatians 5 and 1 Timothy 1, Apostle Paul went into greater detail about those who walk by The Spirit vs. by their flesh. He even gave us a preview of the sins of the flesh that he said those who do those sins shall NOT enter into the Kingdom of God.

That does not mean trying to be justified by keeping the law. Christ's Salvation is not of the law, but by His grace through our Faith on The Father and His Son's Blood shed upon the cross for the forgiveness of sins of those who believe. Yet it still does not mean to stop checking ourselves for sin and repenting when we need to.

What the 'once saved, always saved' doctrine of men leads to is the fallacy that once we have believed on Jesus, then we have no further need to be concerned about sin, and have no further need to repent. That is exactly what the devil wants us to do, not pay attention to whether we commit a sin after we've become Christians.

Carl Emerson · Nov 26, 2021

Davy said:
What the 'once saved, always saved' doctrine of men leads to is the fallacy that once we have believed on Jesus, then we have no further need to be concerned about sin, and have no further need to repent. That is exactly what the devil wants us to do, not pay attention to whether we commit a sin after we've become Christians.

I believe in 'one saved always saved' and experience His conviction upon me to repent when needed.

It is wrong to assume that OSAS believers are not repentant, and do not have conviction, this is very wrong, in fact the fear of God seals our salvation.

BobRyan · Nov 26, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I believe in 'one saved always saved' and experience His conviction upon me to repent when needed.

It is wrong to assume that OSAS believers are not repentant, and do not have conviction, this is very wrong, in fact the fear of God seals our salvation.

In order to believe in OSAS one has to first be saved - and that saved person by definition has conviction and has the proper "fear of God" - the New Birth experience and is under the New Covenant.

Where OSAS runs into a problem is in denying the warning messages of scripture - for example in Matt 18 "forgiveness revoked" and in John 15 branches "in Christ" that are removed and destroyed, and in Rom 11 "you stand only by your faith.. you should fear..for if God did not spare them - He will not spare you either".

1 Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified from it"

Davy · Nov 26, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I believe in 'one saved always saved' and experience His conviction upon me to repent when needed.

It is wrong to assume that OSAS believers are not repentant, and do not have conviction, this is very wrong, in fact the fear of God seals our salvation.

If you still repent, that means you recognize that you can still sin as a Christian. That's not the actual 'once saved, always saved' idea.

The OSAS idea of men is like Paul's warning against thinking that since we believe on Jesus we have a license to sin...

Rom 6:12-16
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
KJV

So if one is going to preach forgiveness of sins by His Grace, they also need to preach Paul's warning against continuing to sin that goes with it. OSAS doesn't do the latter.

Davy · Nov 26, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I believe in 'one saved always saved' and experience His conviction upon me to repent when needed.

It is wrong to assume that OSAS believers are not repentant, and do not have conviction, this is very wrong, in fact the fear of God seals our salvation.

Furthermore, let's be honest about the abusive un-Scriptural OSAS doctrine of men. I have had discussions with brethren who believe that doctrine that no longer repent at all! They are told they no longer have any need to repent, since Jesus forgave all... future sins they might commit.

The reality is though, per Apostle Paul, our first belief on Jesus for the remission of sins is for sins that are 'past'...

Rom 3:25
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
KJV

We still need to repent of sins we may commit after having believed on Jesus Christ, and that is the very subject by Apostle John in 1 John 1.

Maria Billingsley · Nov 26, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
I believe in 'one saved always saved' and experience His conviction upon me to repent when needed.

It is wrong to assume that OSAS believers are not repentant, and do not have conviction, this is very wrong, in fact the fear of God seals our salvation.

I belive the error in OSAS is the claim that someone who has the Holy Spirit is somehow protected from being an apostate. Any Christian can run the risk of forfeiture by being deceived and just simply walking away. My niece is one example in my family.

Maria Billingsley · Nov 26, 2021

fli said:
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. NIV

Both 8:1 and 8: 4 are correct. Verse 8:1 states the same as John 3:18. Verse 2 the law of Spirit of life is: “if one has the Spirit of Jesus they have eternal life.” Paul ended chapter 7 by saying that in his mind he served the law. If a Christian agrees with God that the law is good and attempts to obey that law then the “law of sin and death” is fulfilled in them. In Chapter 8 we will see just what happens to a Christian that does not serve the law with his mind.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NKJV

You are correct if you say that Paul is describing an ungodly person. Romans 4:5 Paul stated that God justifies the ungodly. Paul is describing Christians that do not serve the law of S&D with their mind. They have their heart set on carnal things. If you do not believe that Paul can be describing Christians read 1Corinthians. In chapter 5 of that epistle the young man engaged with immoral sex with his step mother was saved. If he was not Paul would not have said to turn him over to Satan. People who are unsaved cannot be turned over to Satan as they are already in his kingdom. In addition in chapter 11 Paul describes some Corinthians who were getting drunk and eating all the bread at the Lord's supper. They to were saved because Paul states they were being disciplined by God and some had “went to sleep” which is Paul's way of stating that Christians had died and are with the Lord.

In verse 6 Paul stated to be carnal minded is death. This is true. Christians in 1Corinthians “went to sleep” under God's discipline. They died temporally -not eternal death.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, 10B but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

Verse 10 every Christian has the Spirit of Christ or they are not saved. With the Spirit of Christ the body is dead because all Christians, even those who serve the law of S&D with their mind, still sin daily. Now in verse 2 above Paul stated the “law of the Spirit of life” has set us free of the law of S&D. As long as a person has the Spirit of Jesus they have eternal life even though the body might die. Verse 10B that is what Paul means by the Spirit is life because of righteousness. It's Jesus righteousness not ours.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." NKJV

Paul could only be speaking to Christians in verse 13. The Spirit does not work in unbelievers. By works of the law no flesh will be justified so they would need to accept Jesus and put to death the sins of the flesh. He could only be referring to believers. Therefore, Paul is speaking of temporal death. Verse 14 if a person is being led by the Spirit they are sons of God. These are the sons who will hear “well done good and faithful servant.” Those sons who die under discipline are sons that God is not so proud of.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe — and tremble!

Paul as he was walking down the Damascus road to kill Christians believed in one God. He believed that he was doing that one God's work. We believe that the one God sent His Son to save the world. We put our trust in Jesus. Yes! The demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the savior of the world. They rubbed elbows with Jesus before He kicked them out of heaven for disobedience. Hebrews 2: 16 Jesus does not save the angels, good or bad.

James 2: 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 23 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. NKJV

Genesis 15:6 Abraham was justified prior to Ishmael's birth. Romans 4: 10 Abraham was circumcised at age 99 and Ishmael was 13. Then it was many more years before he offered Isaac on the altar. So Abraham was righteous long before offering Isaac. Verse 22 Abraham's faith was perfected by his act. Verse 23 Abraham's faith was fulfilled the same as in Roman's 8: 4 where the requirements of the law are fully met (fulfilled) in those who believe in Jesus and walk in the Spirit. So Abraham was righteous prior to offering Isaac. Because he listened to God, walked in the Spirit, he fully met the law of sin and death.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. NKJV\

Paul explained the process in Romans 8: 9-13 without the Spirit of the Father a Christian dies. When a Christian dies they go to be with the Lord. Faith has done it's work. We see what we hope for. Faith is dead.

James and Paul are in agreement. A believer that has no works is walking according to the flesh. God will discipline the person. If they do not repent discipline will result in death and faith is dead. In James 2: 14 he asks if faith without works can save a person. The answer is yes.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, NKJV

This statment by James pretty much covers the whole subject matter:
"You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

fhansen · Nov 26, 2021

There’s no conflict between Jesus, John, James, Paul, et al. They all knew that, by the new covenant, man was still obligated to be and live righteously, but that he has no righteousness of his own in the condition or state that we’re all born into, that of alienation from God. We must come to know Him, for ourselves, first. Man was made for communion with God, and only He can justify man, not ourselves:
“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.” Jer 31:33

“not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

This was well understood, that faith does not excuse man from the obligation to be righteous but finally brings authentic righteousness to man, as was always intended to be the case; man was not created to be a sinner after all. But he can only avoid sin to the extent that he’s subjugated to God in a union of love. That relationship is the basis of man’s justice/righteousness. “Apart from Me you can do nothing.” John 15:5 And that relationship is entered into by faith.

“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it.” Rom 3:21

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

So…man, now justified, restored to his position before the Fall, is enabled to live as God designed him to live; all the necessary “ingredients” are in place once man is indwelt by the Spirit. Man’s will is still free, he can still return to a life of sin, to the flesh, or he can grow nearer and nearer to God, and to His own image as we remain in Him, doing His will by the grace He gives, working out our salvation together with He who works in us.

“Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.” Rom 8:12-13

So Paul understands this well when he says in Rom 2:
“To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.”
And:
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.”

James agrees:
"You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone." James 2:24

At the end of the day, God will give His just judgment-about how well we did with the gift of life, the gift of grace, the gift of Himself, that we received, the following still holding true:

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:9

‘Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One. Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ Mark 12

fhansen · Nov 26, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
This statment by James pretty much covers the whole subject matter:
"You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."

Yes, we error if we separate our justifcation, our being justified, from the fact of actually becoming just/righteous, with works that naturally flow from that state.

fli · Nov 26, 2021

Davy said:
Let's pay closer attention to what Apostle Paul really said in those Romans 8 verses, because Paul put conditions in that...

Rom 8:1-4
8 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His Own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
KJV

Two Conditions Paul shows there:
1. walking after the flesh
2. walking after The Spirit

In Galatians 5 and 1 Timothy 1, Apostle Paul went into greater detail about those who walk by The Spirit vs. by their flesh. He even gave us a preview of the sins of the flesh that he said those who do those sins shall NOT enter into the Kingdom of God.

That does not mean trying to be justified by keeping the law. Christ's Salvation is not of the law, but by His grace through our Faith on The Father and His Son's Blood shed upon the cross for the forgiveness of sins of those who believe. Yet it still does not mean to stop checking ourselves for sin and repenting when we need to.

I did not mention OSAS nor do I believe it

Rom 8:1 (a) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, (b) who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. NKJV
The KJV and several others add all after (b) in verse 1. The oldest manuscript does not contain what is after (b).

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. NIV

The NIV and the majority of English translations omit all after (b) in the KJV. As I stated in my post Romans 8:1 in the NIV agrees with: John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJV

Both Romans chapter 8 verse 1 and John chapter 3 verse 18 say there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ.

Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. NIV

If a Christian lives according to the Spirit the law of sin and death is fully met. We go back to chapter 7.

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God;s law. But in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. NIV

The dilemma for Paul is he wants to not sin but cannot stop sinning. By the law of sin and death he should die. But with his mind he agrees that the law is good and wants to serve the law. Therefore; because he tries to observe the law by walking in the Spirit the law of sin and death is fully met. In other words he will continue to live in the flesh. The rest of Romans 8 down to verse 14 Paul explains what happens to those Christians who try to do right and those who do not try to live right.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. NKJV

That sounds like most of the believers in Corinth. So are you saying that the Corinthians were not saved, that they all repented or they lost salvation. Paul said that the drunkards in chapter 11 who did not repent went to sleep. That means they died temporally and went to be with the Lord.

2 Cor 12:20-For I fear lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found by you such as you do not wish; lest there be contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, backbitings, whisperings, conceits, tumults; 21 lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced. NKJV

He was even warning them, those who he knew did the above from his prior visits, to repent of the vary things in Galatians.

All those items listed in Galatians and Corinthians describe what ungodly people do. I have faith in my God who justifies ungodly people. He justifies while they are still acting ungodly if they believe in Him otherwise He would not say that He justifies the “ungodly.”

When one is in Jesus God does not impute any sin to that person. So the Corinthians, who disrespected the Lord's supper by getting drunk and making pigs of themselves, even though they died because they got drunk, are not known as drunks in heaven. They have the righteousness of Jesus.

1 Tim 1:20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. NKJV

We have no knowledge if these two repented or died under discipline. If they died not repenting then they are not known as blasphemers in heaven. A person cannot be turned over to Satan if they are in his kingdom already. Therefore. They are Christian and God did not impute sin to them.

Carl Emerson · Nov 26, 2021

Davy said:
If you still repent, that means you recognize that you can still sin as a Christian. That's not the actual 'once saved, always saved' idea.

I dont think that is correct...

OSAS does not mean sinless perfection.

It means the Cross is a timeless event and His blood covered future sins, and the Spirit of the fear of Him seals us against renounciation.

There is a modern trend to teach a 'soft' God who isnt fussed about behaviour because Jesus took care of all that by keeping the Law.

I dont think this trend should be given the label OSAS.

Carl Emerson · Nov 26, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
I belive the error in OSAS is the claim that someone who has the Holy Spirit is somehow protected from being an apostate. Any Christian can run the risk of forfeiture by being deceived and just simply walking away. My niece is one example in my family.

Honestly I think ones theology is often tied to our own experiences.

I was born again at 13 and fell away for 11 years and He gave me a second chance. The fear of Him in me stopped me from going too far away and renouncing my faith. Now I look at scripture the journey makes sense.

Christians thought I was a lost cause because they didnt believe you could fall far into sin after being saved. (Heb 6) To them I was damned. They believed you cant be born again twice and didn't leave room for a prodigals' return.

Carl Emerson · Nov 26, 2021

Davy said:
Furthermore, let's be honest about the abusive un-Scriptural OSAS doctrine of men. I have had discussions with brethren who believe that doctrine that no longer repent at all! They are told they no longer have any need to repent, since Jesus forgave all... future sins they might commit.

I don't think this is classical OSAS teaching at all but a modern deviation.

Maria Billingsley · Nov 26, 2021

Carl Emerson said:
Honestly I think ones theology is often tied to our own experiences.

I was born again at 13 and fell away for 11 years and He gave me a second chance. The fear of Him in me stopped me from going too far away and renouncing my faith. Now I look at scripture the journey makes sense.

Christians thought I was a lost cause because they didnt believe you could fall far into sin after being saved. (Heb 6) To them I was damned. They believed you cant be born again twice and didn't leave room for a prodigals' return.

Absolutely! We can fall away temporarily and come back however the unforgivable sin is to deny the Holy Spirit until death. I'm hoping my niece has only a temporary condition.

Carl Emerson · Nov 26, 2021

Maria Billingsley said:
Absolutely! We can fall away temporarily and come back however the unforgivable sin is to deny the Holy Spirit until death. I'm hoping my niece has only a temporary condition.

Yes and in my experience Prayer has a huge part to play. I had folks I never knew praying for me. My mum and Grand-mum were prayer warriors.

Our Shepherd leaves the 99 and goes out after the one...

klutedavid · Nov 26, 2021

fli said:
Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. NIV

Both 8:1 and 8: 4 are correct. Verse 8:1 states the same as John 3:18. Verse 2 the law of Spirit of life is: “if one has the Spirit of Jesus they have eternal life.” Paul ended chapter 7 by saying that in his mind he served the law. If a Christian agrees with God that the law is good and attempts to obey that law then the “law of sin and death” is fulfilled in them. In Chapter 8 we will see just what happens to a Christian that does not serve the law with his mind.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NKJV

You are correct if you say that Paul is describing an ungodly person. Romans 4:5 Paul stated that God justifies the ungodly. Paul is describing Christians that do not serve the law of S&D with their mind. They have their heart set on carnal things. If you do not believe that Paul can be describing Christians read 1Corinthians. In chapter 5 of that epistle the young man engaged with immoral sex with his step mother was saved. If he was not Paul would not have said to turn him over to Satan. People who are unsaved cannot be turned over to Satan as they are already in his kingdom. In addition in chapter 11 Paul describes some Corinthians who were getting drunk and eating all the bread at the Lord's supper. They to were saved because Paul states they were being disciplined by God and some had “went to sleep” which is Paul's way of stating that Christians had died and are with the Lord.

In verse 6 Paul stated to be carnal minded is death. This is true. Christians in 1Corinthians “went to sleep” under God's discipline. They died temporally -not eternal death.

Romans 8:9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, 10B but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. NKJV

Verse 10 every Christian has the Spirit of Christ or they are not saved. With the Spirit of Christ the body is dead because all Christians, even those who serve the law of S&D with their mind, still sin daily. Now in verse 2 above Paul stated the “law of the Spirit of life” has set us free of the law of S&D. As long as a person has the Spirit of Jesus they have eternal life even though the body might die. Verse 10B that is what Paul means by the Spirit is life because of righteousness. It's Jesus righteousness not ours.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father." NKJV

Paul could only be speaking to Christians in verse 13. The Spirit does not work in unbelievers. By works of the law no flesh will be justified so they would need to accept Jesus and put to death the sins of the flesh. He could only be referring to believers. Therefore, Paul is speaking of temporal death. Verse 14 if a person is being led by the Spirit they are sons of God. These are the sons who will hear “well done good and faithful servant.” Those sons who die under discipline are sons that God is not so proud of.

James 2:19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe — and tremble!

Paul as he was walking down the Damascus road to kill Christians believed in one God. He believed that he was doing that one God's work. We believe that the one God sent His Son to save the world. We put our trust in Jesus. Yes! The demons believe that Jesus is the Son of God and the savior of the world. They rubbed elbows with Jesus before He kicked them out of heaven for disobedience. Hebrews 2: 16 Jesus does not save the angels, good or bad.

James 2: 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 23 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. NKJV

Genesis 15:6 Abraham was justified prior to Ishmael's birth. Romans 4: 10 Abraham was circumcised at age 99 and Ishmael was 13. Then it was many more years before he offered Isaac on the altar. So Abraham was righteous long before offering Isaac. Verse 22 Abraham's faith was perfected by his act. Verse 23 Abraham's faith was fulfilled the same as in Roman's 8: 4 where the requirements of the law are fully met (fulfilled) in those who believe in Jesus and walk in the Spirit. So Abraham was righteous prior to offering Isaac. Because he listened to God, walked in the Spirit, he fully met the law of sin and death.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. NKJV\

Paul explained the process in Romans 8: 9-13 without the Spirit of the Father a Christian dies. When a Christian dies they go to be with the Lord. Faith has done it's work. We see what we hope for. Faith is dead.

James and Paul are in agreement. A believer that has no works is walking according to the flesh. God will discipline the person. If they do not repent discipline will result in death and faith is dead. In James 2: 14 he asks if faith without works can save a person. The answer is yes.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, NKJV

Be very careful when wandering through the letter to the Romans. Who is Paul addressing in the letter to the Romans, Gentiles or Jews?

Romans 2:17
But if you bear the name “Jew” and rely upon the Law and boast in God.

Is Paul addressing the Jews in Rome or the Gentiles?

Romans 2:23-4
You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

Once again fli, is Paul addressing the Jews in Rome or the Gentiles.

The Jews have the law and the Gentiles do not have the law.

This distinction will color your interpretation of Romans.

TheWhat? · Nov 26, 2021

As seen in the quoted posts, below, this is a subject that has been at the forefront of my attention for some time:

TheWhat? said:
A difficult subject, and very much one that has been on the forefront of mind as of late. But it does seem that your quandary is actually two problems confused as one. At least, it makes more sense to me if you divide them.

G F Sladcik said:

Some Christians find reading the Old Testament arduous and unnecessary. All of those laws and calls for sacrifice just do not seem to have value. The God of the Old Testament seems so harsh with all that wrath and judgment -- that God does not seem to be the same God that Jesus refers to -- that God of Love.

First, we either believe the WHOLE Bible or we don't.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, II Timothy 3:14 (NKJV)

All Scripture means ALL as in both the Old Testament and the New Testament. The verse also explains the value that this inspired, God-breathed, scripture has. This alone should be reason enough tp study the Old Testament.

As for all of those Laws, many are recorded for historical reference and do not need to be focused on. The civil and ceremonial laws are not relevant for today, but the moral laws still are valid. The Ten Commandments are valid today as they were in the days of Moses. Jesus summarizes the Commandments:

Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” Matt 22:37-40

The First of the Great Commandments is actually found in Deut 6:5. Jesus finds value in the Old Testament, so should we. In fact, the Old Testament is referenced over 1600 times in the New Testament. For this reason, some say that the Old Testament is the New Testament concealed, and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed. The Messianic prophesies of the Old Testament foretold of Jesus in which He has already fulfilled many.

Click to expand...

This is really the first of the two problems, in my opinion, and the one that I'm still struggling with. Honestly I had to shelve Paul temporarily to reacquaint myself with the law-accepting stance articulated in the NT, which is not intended to be a rejection of Paul. Once I did, it became apparent to me that the NT writings which cater more to the early Jewish Christians place a high emphasis on the efficacy of scripture, probably including the law.

[Jas 1:21 NKJV] 21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.

[Jhn 6:68 NKJV] 68 But Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life."

But, if the law is applicable to Gentiles, what about the council of Jerusalem in acts 15? I think there's still something to be said about that, but also, remember it was James who presides in the text, not Paul, and this detail to me seems relevant:

[Act 15:21 NKJV] 21 "For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath."

So it seems that James, who would most likely agree with John on the use of the law in the definition of sin, and who also decides to not trouble the Gentiles who are "turning to God" with additional legal burdens beyond a few necessary things, does so while still considering the whole of the scripture to be useful, and possibly necessary, toward salvation and instruction in righteousness, etc. Of course then we have to wonder about Paul, if he really disagreed, or not. I think there is some evidence that suggests he wouldn't here:

[2Ti 3:14-17 NKJV] 14 But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned [them], 15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

And that, to me, sounds like the same underlying doctrine at work.

How do we reconcile the persona of God in the Old Testament versus the New Testament? First, God is unchanging so to see God as different is our lack of understanding. The God of the Old Testament had to deal with a rebellious and disobedient people for several thousand years. The deserved punishment, which they received, but they also received mercy by not being fully punished. Israel also received grace by God defeating their enemies, restoring them and sending them a Messiah. The New Testament covered almost 100 years -- not nearly the same time frame. Much of the New Testament is focused on Christ, his words, his teachings and the spreading this word by the apostles and disciples.

The value of the Old Testament provides much context to demonstrate how much God loves His people in spite of their disobedience. The need for the Messiah is shown because following the Law is insufficient because no one is capable of NOT sinning. The history, poetry and wisdom of the Old Testament actually glorifies Jesus because He is all of it so that He can be the Redeemer.

Click to expand...

Personally, I'm inclined to think of the supposed difference in the character of God to be better explained as a difference in covenants, rather than a change or difference in the character of God, which is verging on Marcion's error. The old covenant was to Paul very much a ministry of death and condemnation whereas the new was a ministry of righteousness. That law can't be binding to us otherwise we'd be required to execute vast numbers of people, which would be at cross-purposes with the Gospel, for starters.

TheWhat? said:
RDKirk said:

I agree with your post overall, but Simon Peter's statement (and I'm thinking about the question of the wealthy young ruler in Mark 10) suggests that eternal life, in particular, is suggested but by no means promised by the keeping of the Old Covenant. If it were, then the words of the Pharisees and priests would also have eternal life, and perfect keeping of the Law would lead to eternal life. But there is no indication that the Jews felt confident about that.

Click to expand...

That's one of the things that makes the subject so obscure and difficult. I also think that neither Peter nor the gospels intend to imply salvation by works-righteousness. Rather, taking all things into consideration, the parable of the sower, and more, there is something much more going on here which is taught consequently by reading the gospels, but which I've never heard a denomination expound on -- and it may be better that way -- but this is where Paul comes back, reiterating the same:

[Gal 3:2-5 NKJV] 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed [it was] in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does He do it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?--

I think James and Paul here are actually in agreement. James would be worried about the preaching of the word not taking root in a gentile believer, so he encourages us to take action, but, then, so does Paul:

[Phl 2:12-13 NKJV] 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for [His] good pleasure.

But even if Paul thought that the law was relevant to the Gentile believer, it doesn't change his words in Galatians:

[Gal 5:1-6 NKJV] 1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who [attempt to] be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

It isn't easy to reconcile Paul on the matter, but it is relevant, in my estimation, that Paul is specifically referring to circumcision, since in the OT, circumcision had the effect of "naturalizing" a non-Hebrew, placing them under the covenant wherein they were expected to fulfill all of its obligations, and this is according to the law. The law deals differently with non-Hebrews than it does with Hebrews.

fli said:
Both 8:1 and 8: 4 are correct. Verse 8:1 states the same as John 3:18. Verse 2 the law of Spirit of life is: “if one has the Spirit of Jesus they have eternal life.” Paul ended chapter 7 by saying that in his mind he served the law. If a Christian agrees with God that the law is good and attempts to obey that law then the “law of sin and death” is fulfilled in them. In Chapter 8 we will see just what happens to a Christian that does not serve the law with his mind.

Romans 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. NKJV

This can be taken in at least two ways: either God hates your body, your humanity, to such a degree that to be spiritually minded is so other-worldly that we should all be crucified, in a sense that requires the destruction of your humanity if not your very life, or, Judas is considered to be part of the revelation of Christ, and is foundational to Paul's perspective, Judas having turned to religious authorities who all attempted to use law against Christ, literally at enmity with God, showing that in their attempt to use law they were neither subject to the law, nor could they be, being wholly unable to please God while attempting to use the law to commit murder -- a violation of the law.

Regardless, either Paul contradicts himself, or he doesn't, and attempts at justification by law remains a very serious threat to the salvation of the believer. I do not think he's seeking to establish a loophole wherein obligation to obedience to the law is somehow reintroduced, though obligation to an Abrahamic-like faith is another matter entirely.

Davy · Nov 26, 2021

fli said:
I did not mention OSAS nor do I believe it

Rom 8:1 (a) There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, (b) who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. NKJV
The KJV and several others add all after (b) in verse 1. The oldest manuscript does not contain what is after (b).

Rom 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. NIV

The NIV and the majority of English translations omit all after (b) in the KJV. As I stated in my post Romans 8:1 in the NIV agrees with: John 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. NKJV

Nah, you're simply using a corrupt New Testament from a completely 'different' set of Greek manuscripts, a translation in the 1880s by Wescott and Hort (based on the corrupt Codex Sinaticus and Codex Vaticanus). And the Nestle-Aland Greek text is just an edited version of the Wescott and Hort Greek text. That is why there are parts missing... in modern New Testament versions like the NIV, but they are present in the KJV because it was translated from the Textus Receptus Greek texts, and that is the Greek text the early Church fathers used, because that's what they quoted.

Both Romans chapter 8 verse 1 and John chapter 3 verse 18 say there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ.

Rom 8:4 in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. NIV

If a Christian lives according to the Spirit the law of sin and death is fully met. We go back to chapter 7.

Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God — through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God;s law. But in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. NIV

The dilemma for Paul is he wants to not sin but cannot stop sinning. By the law of sin and death he should die. But with his mind he agrees that the law is good and wants to serve the law. Therefore; because he tries to observe the law by walking in the Spirit the law of sin and death is fully met. In other words he will continue to live in the flesh. The rest of Romans 8 down to verse 14 Paul explains what happens to those Christians who try to do right and those who do not try to live right.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. NKJV

That sounds like most of the believers in Corinth. So are you saying that the Corinthians were not saved, that they all repented or they lost salvation. Paul said that the drunkards in chapter 11 who did not repent went to sleep. That means they died temporally and went to be with the Lord.

2 Cor 12:20-For I fear lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I wish, and that I shall be found by you such as you do not wish; lest there be contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, backbitings, whisperings, conceits, tumults; 21 lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and I shall mourn for many who have sinned before and have not repented of the uncleanness, fornication, and lewdness which they have practiced. NKJV

He was even warning them, those who he knew did the above from his prior visits, to repent of the vary things in Galatians.

All those items listed in Galatians and Corinthians describe what ungodly people do. I have faith in my God who justifies ungodly people. He justifies while they are still acting ungodly if they believe in Him otherwise He would not say that He justifies the “ungodly.”

When one is in Jesus God does not impute any sin to that person. So the Corinthians, who disrespected the Lord's supper by getting drunk and making pigs of themselves, even though they died because they got drunk, are not known as drunks in heaven. They have the righteousness of Jesus.

1 Tim 1:20 of whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I delivered to Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme. NKJV

We have no knowledge if these two repented or died under discipline. If they died not repenting then they are not known as blasphemers in heaven. A person cannot be turned over to Satan if they are in his kingdom already. Therefore. They are Christian and God did not impute sin to them.[/QUOTE]

Romans 8 agrees with James 2

Active Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Oldbie

Oldbie

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Ate all the treats

Well-Known Member

Similar threads