God wanted man to fall

dóxatotheó said:

As we know God was very must aware of Adam and Eves existence before they existence. He also knew that they would disobey him, How do we know that? The answer is, is God is infinite in knowledge so we understand that he wanted Adam and Eve to sin for a bigger picture. Whats the bigger picture Theosis!!!!! Adam and Eve were corruptible but perfect before they fall from Gods Grace, so The Son came as a servant to make us as him not corruptible, all this to defeat Satan. Is why God wanted Adam and Eve to fall.

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The objective was never to "Never ever sin". God did not make humans "perfect" as Christ is perfect, but just "very good" which in God's view might be as good as a made being could be made. Sin had a purpose in helping humans in their fulfilling their objective.

dóxatotheó said:

SuperCow said:

If by definition he pre-knew Adam’s sin, then he pre-knew the rest of history.

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Yeah and he does is there a problem with that?

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Of course. If it were true then he knows what I am going to do before I do it. I have no choice at all, because it was predetermined. It's like the children's board game Candyland. You shuffle the cards initially, but once you start the game, nothing you do in the game from that point on changes the outcome. You may not know who is going to win, but the cards in the deck will have already been in an order that will predetermine the winner.

dóxatotheó said:

Hmm this position seems to insinuate that one sin is greater than others even though the first sin led to others.

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It must be greater in God's mind since he didn't threaten to wipe mankind off the face of the earth when Eve sinned, Adam sinned, or Cain committed murder. The difference is these three showed some symptoms of remorse, whereas those that died in the flood had no remorse. (Until the flood came.)

prodromos said:

No. Foreknowledge of the fall does not imply it was God's will for it to happen. Christ was always going to become Man in order to unite us to Him. It could have happened without the fall, it just means He would not have had to die since death would not have been a condition of our flesh in need of healing.

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Foreknowledge of the fall of your creation before you create them absolute must imply it was God's will, otherwise why wouldn't you create someone who would not fail? "It could have happened without the fall" is irrelevant, because that would never be a possibility.

Either God chose not to look ahead to see their fall, or he chose their fall. If he chose their fall, then he chose the outcome of all our sins and any punishment for those sins would be unjust, because the choice was not ours. It was God's foreknowledge.

dóxatotheó said:

He does though.

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Maybe, if he wants to.

dóxatotheó said:

I wouldn't put Gods knowledge of past future and present with a Card game because we already know God isn't finite in knowledge in anyway its Orthodox that God knows everything we do before you do it.

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The only difference is the level of complexity. If I shuffle and then look at the deck, I can compare that to the board and know where each player will land each turn. If I choose to switch a couple of cards around, I can change who wins and loses.

I see no difference in the real world scenario. God creates Adam and Eve (and the serpent and whoever controls the serpent), and knowing everything has stacked the deck to cause the rest of history to result in dismal failure for the vast majority of humans, when changing a few neurons in Eve's (or Adam's) brain might make things entirely different.

dóxatotheó said:

Him knowing what you gonna do before you do it wouldn't interfere with what you do naturally.

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It doesn't matter, because from the moment I am conceived what I am going to do naturally has been set in stone for me thousands of years ago, because God knows all, and God is infinite and God does not have the ability to create something he doesn't already know the answer to. In this scenario, we are only a computer program, doing what the program does naturally.

dóxatotheó said:

Completely false... The reason God regretted was because people was following there own desires and not repenting/following God.

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How is that different from what I said?

dóxatotheó said:

where did Cain shown remorse for killing Abel? Secondly, I agree Adam and Eve are different but dont see how that really on topic of the OP.

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Cain asked for mercy, and God pardoned him. The wording is different in Genesis, but that is essentially what happened.

Deleted.

dóxatotheó said:

Correct Cow Gods infinite knowledge cannot be changeable but theirs two wills permissible and perfect God wills us but our acts are our own.

There is no want he has too.

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So now you’re saying God isn’t all-powerful, because he has no choice. In order for God to be all-powerful, his infinite knowledge must be changeable, otherwise he doesn’t have “that” power.

dóxatotheó said:

Friend you seem to be confused on what Foreknowledge is you should make a thread specifically on this as its not on topic to mines. Also, God isnt creating the acts you do I already said that he knows the acts thats gonna occur as Gods not ignorant ever how hard is this to be understood do you believe God to be ignorant?

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There already is another thread specifically on this topic; however, that is irrelevant. I am just following your argument to their logical conclusion.

God creates. God knows what will happen when he creates. Therefore God caused what will happen.

Or, as is the case in many places in the Bible, God offers a choice. God knows what choice you will make, therefore the choice is invalid, because God knows which choice you will make anyway.

It is natural reason that Adam and Eve sinned, it cannot be avoided.
God not see the future to save someone, he see what he is doing now and decide to save him or not.
God created Adam and Eve to have life, no matter sinful or righteous.
The devil exist because God want him to exist, he don't care if he is evil or good.

dóxatotheó said:

non-sequitur you cannot make an conclusion with no evidence and lack of support cause God chooses what he creates he doesn't have to create anything. I dont believe ADS...

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How is it a non-sequitur? In what universe does creating Eve not cause Adam to sin if God knows the sin cannot be avoided? The creation of Eve is the first domino leading to Adam which is the second domino, etc. You're avoiding the question. (and I don't know what ADS is)

dóxatotheó said:

God knowing the outcome is because hes aware of the outcome(foreknowledge). He doesn't create the acts he knows the acts by awareness. Like I said this has nothing to do with the OP.

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So does God not have the ability to change the outcome, or does his foreknowledge force him to make only one outcome? Either answer makes God powerless.

dóxatotheó said:

He doesn't he cant make himself ignorant its an energy of him its infinite

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So by being infinite, God is no longer infinite because he lacks the power to change the future, unless he sees himself first changing the future which means he didn't actually change the future. Your position leads to paradox after paradox.

dóxatotheó said:

If God be finite in one thing than hes not pure act If God was finite in knowledge than his knowledge would be bound by time

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Nonsense. It's a perfectly valid premise that God can see multiple paths to multiple futures, and he chooses which path to take. It's also perfectly valid that God sees every permutation of the future, but allows man to choose his own narrow path, along the confines that it does not interfere with God's other plans for the future. Or it's perfectly valid for God to offer a choice, and due to the choice God infinitely knows how to alter the future to ensure his plans for mankind, while still giving a single man a choice in his own life.

dóxatotheó said:

making the Trinity 3 different acts which breaks the simplicity of the Trinity because it would legitimately mean the Son was begotted(created) and the Spirit was proceeded in time aka 3 gods in one essence in time leading to the LDS position.

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The Trinity is a completely different line of discussion. God's infinite choices of infinite futures has no bearing on it.

dóxatotheó said:

Another fallacious argument your conclusions arent back with any evidence they just conclusions from your fortay beliefs.

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This is a theoretical discussion. I would contend that your conclusions have less evidence than mine. I can point to a long line of prophetic scriptures offering a patriarch, the nation of Israel, a king, or a prophet a choice. I have seen you offer no scriptures that say a person's choice has already been decided by time.

I can help you out though. Pharaoh's fate was sealed at the time of the Exodus for God to make a display with all ten plagues. Some Canaanite armies were confused into killing each other off to prevent them from harming Israel. So God does remove choice from people when it suits him, but to not assume the Bible is misleading you in other cases where it specifically says that God changed his mind requires a very tortured interpretation of scriptural logic.

dóxatotheó said:

This position makes it seem God wanted them to sin, and didnt want them to choose him over themselves this view makes God impotent of course all are created with free acts but no we are not submitted to our own wills in Gods grace that lacks sense.
Interesting he could and my views on extraterrestrial life is maybe.

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well .... if one maintains that God wanted man to fall .... then one also has to believe that God wanted death to enter the world .... do you believe that?

dóxatotheó said:

Huh? You really think the people made from dust from Gods image objective was to sin in one point in time, you think God wanted sin to occur?

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I do not agree with the idea: “perfect means no sin”, since animals do not “sin” and yet are not perfect. Perfect is to Love like God Loves: unconditionally, unselfishly, undeservingly, and really because of who the Lover is and has nothing to do with who is being Loved.

No! I do not think: “God wanted sin to occur”? When you teach your child to ride a bike the objective is for them to learn to ride a bike and not to get hurt, but in training them they will fall sometimes and get a little hurt which is not what you want to happen. God does not want us to sin, but to fulfill our earthly objective we will need to sin (it helps us in fulfilling our objective) as Adam and Eve pointed out to us.

dóxatotheó said:

Jeez your view is extremely controversial oh wow... Too God his main objective is for us to be partakers of his divine nature.

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Has God given man a mission statement? (this is always good to have)

You can take any command in scripture and have Biblical support for calling that command “Man’s Objective” and have Biblical support for saying that, but there are two overriding commands all other commands are bases on and subordinated to.

Would “Loving God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy” be our Mission statement given as a command?

God is Love, but how do we define this Love and measure this Love?

This Godly type Love is defined by Jesus’ words and deeds (you can also use 1 Cor 13 and 1 John 4), so what is that?

Can we measure the “love” one being has for another being by the amount the first being is willing to unselfishly sacrifice for the other being?

Is God this ultimate Lover? Would that “Love” compel even God to make beings that could Love like He Loves (this “Love of God” is totally unselfish [a measure of pure Love] and thus is not for God’s sake at all, but is totally for the sake of others [which would also be God’s sake])?

So, if God is not doing anything for His own sake and everything for the sake of others, would He be expecting or needing anything from man or would God just be trying to give the greatest gift He could give to man?

The reason this “Love” is the most powerful force in all universes is because it compels even God. So, to have this Love would make us like God Himself, so why does God not just make us with this Love and place us in heaven?

Are there something God just cannot do: like make another Christ, since Christ was never made but always existed?

Could God place this Godly type Love in a person at his/her creation (an instinctive love) or would an instinctive love be like a robotic love and not like God’s Love?

Could God just force His Love on man against the “will” of man or would that be like a shotgun wedding with God holding the shotgun?

What does man need that he does not have instinctively in order for man to fulfill this Mission?

Man’s objective seems to be to obtain and grow this Godly type Love to fulfill the mission (statement) of Love God and secondly others with all our heart, soul, mind, and energy.

Our “objective” while here on earth is to just accept God’s gift as it was given as pure charity.

God is not trying to get you to do something, but is trying to give you something.

The problem is not sin (unforgiven sin is a huge problem), because God will forgive our sins which helps us to Love (…he that is forgiven much will Love much….) God hates sin, but does allow it, so we can more easily accept His Love (in the form of forgiveness the easiest way for us to accept His charity). The problem is always our fulfilling our objective.

The Garden is a lousy (impossible) place for humans to fulfill their earthly objective and we can thank Adam and Eve for going through that example and providing us and them with that knowledge.

Sin is not only inevitable, but it unfortunately is necessary for humans.

The easiest way for humans to accept God’s charity (Love) is out of a huge need and that need is the relief from the burden of hurting others in the past (sin). By accepting God’s forgiveness, we accept God’s Love (mercy/grace/charity) and thus we will Love much since Jesus has taught us (we also see this in our own lives) “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…” Luke 7: 36-50.

This world is “very good”, but not “perfect” like heaven is perfect and does not have the same purpose as heaven. This messed up world is actually the very best place for willing individuals to fulfill their earthly objective.

Death is not “bad” in and of itself, but the way good people go home and the way bad people quit doing bad stuff.

It is truly tragic and unfortunate that Christ had to be tortured, humiliated and murdered in order to help willing humans in their fulfilling of their objective, but God is willing to make huge sacrifices to help willing individuals. It is also very sad other humans who had the opportunity to fulfill their primary earthly objective continued to refuse God’s charity to the point they would never of their own free will accepted God’s charity. These God Loved individuals will thus go to their death and destruction as a help to some other humans who have not refused God’s help to the point of never accepting His help.

dóxatotheó said:

As we know God was very must aware of Adam and Eves existence before they existence. He also knew that they would disobey him, How do we know that? The answer is, is God is infinite in knowledge so we understand that he wanted Adam and Eve to sin for a bigger picture. Whats the bigger picture Theosis!!!!! Adam and Eve were corruptible but perfect before they fall from Gods Grace, so The Son came as a servant to make us as him not corruptible, all this to defeat Satan. Is why God wanted Adam and Eve to fall.

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God did not want Adam & Eve to sin or to fall, the Garden of Eden was in no way a set up against Adam & Eve. In no way did Adam & Eve need to fall for God to defeat Satan.
This lengthy but excellent article lays it out perfectly:
Theological FAQ: Eden as Set-up

dóxatotheó said:

permissible will is the orthodox position on this.

Adam and Eve are more than just sinners they were in Gods grace not as perfect as him so they fall because of it. Jesus came so we can be as him

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They fall because of what?