3 Questions about the coming(s) of Jesus

keras

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The church is not mentioned in any of the verses from Revelation 6 to 19. So the answer is the church age is over when the rapture/resurrection takes place.
Wrong.
The Christians are mentioned in Revelation 12:17. We must stand firm in our faith and endure until the end. Which will be when Jesus Returns.

Your promotion of a 'rapture to heaven, Douggg; is serious error and is never prophesied to happen.
 
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DavidPT

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"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."

This week is the days of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. Do you think think if the week is split the 7th Trumpet would stop or never resume?

How long will this week be split? How long can the 7th Trumpet be interrupted?

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

The 7th Trumpet is the completion, yet Gabriel tells Daniel this week will be split.

Yes, when the 7th Trumpet starts, the kingdoms are to be turned over. This is a week long event like the week of Palm Sunday to Resurrection Sunday. That week was when Messiah was cut off, yet that was not the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet is when Jesus Christ as Prince is announced to be in control of all earth, and that is part of the Covenant being confirmed.

Yet somehow this week is also split. This is why we see in Revelation 13, the FP and Satan are given 42 months of desolation. This is after the 7th Trumpet started. Because Gabriel stated this week will be cut in half. But the 7th Trumpet will not stop until Armageddon resolves this desolation, 42 months after the week is split.


One thing I just thought of though.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This says days not day. You of course already pointed that out. I of course already knew it says days rather than day. That should at least tell us this involves more than just one single day. The one thing I just thought of then, per Amil, when the 7th trumpet sounds, this is meaning the last day of this age, thus no more days after that. Why then does this verse indicate the voice of the 7th trumpet, it involves days rather than only a final singular 24 hour day? Granted, eventually it does result in the final day of this age, but not initially if it instead involves days.


This doesn't mean that I am then agreeing with you that there are 42 more months after the 7th trumpet begins to sound. There are vials of wrath to consider. That alone can involve days. I just can't figure out how Amils make this verse fit with Amil when there are no more days remaining once the 7th trumpet sounds, per Amil, yet, the 7th trumpet involves days and not just a single day instead.
 
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Douggg

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Wrong.
The Christians are mentioned in Revelation 12:17. We must stand firm in our faith and endure until the end. Which will be when Jesus Returns.

Your promotion of a 'rapture to heaven, Douggg; is serious error and is never prophesied to happen.
My destination is heaven.

Matthew 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
 
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keras

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Revelation 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

You do not think this is the 2nd coming?

Revelation 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Isn't this verse connected with verse 11? Doesn't this verse mention the wrath of God?
Another failure to read ALL of scripture before making definitive statements.
Revelation 16:12-14 describes the gathering of the worlds armies at Armageddon. Then Revelation 16:16-18 describes their annihilation.
Revelation 15:1 is clear: The wrath of God is over after the 7th Plague.
Which must be before Jesus Returns, as He then chains up Satan and commences His Millennium reign. Revelation 20:1-6

The mention of treading the winepress of wrath, is in Revelation 14:14-20. I believe that Revelation 19:15b is a reference to the Sixth Seal event. Rev 6:12-17 Several years before the Return.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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IMO, this is what Matthew 24:15 is likely pertaining to, except it is not involving a literal brick and mortar temple in Jerusalem. That verse indicates it involves the holy place. No brick and mortar temple post Christ's death and resurrection would still be a holy place. Not the 2nd temple nor an alleged rebuilt 3rd one.
You said this in response to someone saying "Jesus is God's sacrifice and drink offering that was taken away in the midst of the seven", so you apparently believe that the abomination of desolation is directly related to Christ's sacrifice. So, you apparently see Christ Himself as "the holy place" referenced in Matthew 24:15 then?

If Matthew 24:15 is referring to Christ's sacrifice then what did Jesus mean when He said "let those in Judea flee to the mountains" after seeing the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place? Why did He say "How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!" in relation to His sacrifice? Why did He say "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath" in relation to His sacrifice?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The church is not mentioned in any of the verses from Revelation 6 to 19.
This is not true at all. The church is mentioned in the following verses contained between Revelation 6 and 19:

Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

This is referring to martyred members of the church asking how long it would be until their blood would be avenged and they are told to wait until the full number of the fellow members of the church were killed as they had been. To think that the "fellow servants, their brothers and sisters" of the matryred souls that John saw were not part of the church is beyond nonsense.

Revelation 7:9 After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10 And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

This is an obvious reference to the church. It's so obvious that I have no problem with saying that if you can't see that then you are spiritually blind.

Revelation 12:17 Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring—those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus.

Who else but those in the church are "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus"? You claiming that verses like this don't refer to the church is utterly ridiculous.

Revelation 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. 7 It was given power to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And it was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.

Who else are "God's holy people" (KJV says "saints") except for those who are in the church?

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God’s special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

The above verse is a reference to the church. We are God's holy people, so that is who Revelation 13:7 is referring to.

Revelation 19:1 After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, 2 for true and just are his judgments. He has condemned the great prostitute who corrupted the earth by her adulteries. He has avenged on her the blood of his servants.”...7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. 8 Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.” (Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

This is a reference to the souls of those who are in the church in heaven.

The idea that the church is not referenced between Revelation 6 and 19 is clearly not true and can't be taken seriously.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Another failure to read ALL of scripture before making definitive statements.
Revelation 16:12-14 describes the gathering of the worlds armies at Armageddon. Then Revelation 16:16-18 describes their annihilation.
Revelation 15:1 is clear: The wrath of God is over after the 7th Plague.
Which must be before Jesus Returns, as He then chains up Satan and commences His Millennium reign. Revelation 20:1-6

The mention of treading the winepress of wrath, is in Revelation 14:14-20. I believe that Revelation 19:15b is a reference to the Sixth Seal event. Rev 6:12-17
Where exactly in Revelation do you believe it references Jesus's return if not in Revelation 19?
 
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Douggg

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The idea that the church is not referenced between Revelation 6 and 19 is clearly not true and can't be taken seriously.
The church is not in Revelation 6-19 because Christians represented by the church of Philadelphia will be kept from the great tribulation.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I would say make heaven your destination and focus on that.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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One thing I just thought of though.

Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

This says days not day. You of course already pointed that out. I of course already knew it says days rather than day. That should at least tell us this involves more than just one single day. The one thing I just thought of then, per Amil, when the 7th trumpet sounds, this is meaning the last day of this age, thus no more days after that. Why then does this verse indicate the voice of the 7th trumpet, it involves days rather than only a final singular 24 hour day? Granted, eventually it does result in the final day of this age, but not initially if it instead involves days.


This doesn't mean that I am then agreeing with you that there are 42 more months after the 7th trumpet begins to sound. There are vials of wrath to consider. That alone can involve days. I just can't figure out how Amils make this verse fit with Amil when there are no more days remaining once the 7th trumpet sounds, per Amil, yet, the 7th trumpet involves days and not just a single day instead.
The days are referencing the days leading up to the sounding of the seventh trumpet. How can you think that multiple days can happen (involving all 7 of the vials) after the 7th trumpet sounds in light of what it says here:

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. 16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, 17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. 18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

How long after the seventh trumpet sounds do you think the kingdoms of the world "become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ"? Days later? Is that the impression this gives? Not at all, right?

How long after the seventh trumpet sounds will God's wrath come? It says when the seventh trumpet sounds "thy wrath is come". Does that give the impression that it will still be some days before His wrath comes?

How long after the seventh trumpet sounds will the dead be judged? It says when the seventh trumpet sounds it will be "the time of the dead, that they should be judged". Does that come across as if it's saying the dead will be judged days after the seventh trumpet sounds?

I can ask similar questions regarding the rewards for the saints and for the destruction of those who destroy the earth. There is no indication here at all that there would still be multiple days of events after the seventh trumpet sounds.

Don't you believe that the seventh trumpet is the same as the last trumpet of 1 Cor 15:51-52? I believe you do. So, how long after the last trumpet sounds will we all be changed? Days later or a moment later?
 
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DavidPT

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You said this in response to someone saying "Jesus is God's sacrifice and drink offering that was taken away in the midst of the seven", so you apparently believe that the abomination of desolation is directly related to Christ's sacrifice. So, you apparently see Christ Himself as "the holy place" referenced in Matthew 24:15 then?

Christ is not the holy place meant. Or at least that thought never crossed my mind before. I'm not entirely certain what is meant by the holy place. I'm just certain it can't be meaning a brick and mortar temple, though. Why would an AOD standing in the holy place, standing where it ought not, even matter concerning a brick and mortar temple that is obsolete once Christ died and rose? Mark 13 says standing where it ought not. If the temple is obsolete, if the temple is going to be destroyed anyway, this assuming the 2nd temple, how can something be standing in it where it ought not? How does that make any sense?

That to me would be like an AOD occurring in a JW Kingdom Hall. Who cares, though? It's not like that place is holy or something, and that an AOD just made it unholy all of a sudden.


If Matthew 24:15 is referring to Christ's sacrifice then what did Jesus mean when He said "let those in Judea flee to the mountains" after seeing the abomination of desolation stand in the holy place? Why did He say "How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers!" in relation to His sacrifice? Why did He say "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath" in relation to His sacrifice?

Some of those things do appear to be involving literal events. Can they be spiritualized instead? Maybe. Except I'm not certain as to how. It for sure wouldn't make sense to spiritualize verse 15 then take the things you brought up, as literal. It has to be one or the other. It can't be both.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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The church is not in Revelation 6-19 because Christians represented by the church of Philadelphia will be kept from the great tribulation.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
I showed you the church in Revelation 6-19. What do you have to say about the verses I shared that are within Relation 6-19 that reference the church? Are you just going to ignore them?

This verse does not refute what I said at all. How does one verse referencing a first century church in the province of Asia have anything to do with the entire church not being referenced in Revelation 6-19? This is an unbelievably weak argument. And your argument also doesn't consider this verse:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Your belief completely contradicts this verse. Jesus has no interest in taking us out of the world to avoid trials and tribulations. Instead, He prayed to the Father that He would protect us and help us get through trials and tribulations.

I would say make heaven your destination and focus on that.
I would say to focus on watching what's going on spiritually and be spiritually ready for Christ's return like scripture tells us repeatedly because He is coming like a thief in the night. This includes being ready for persecution or anything that may come your way before then. Don't pray that you will be taken out of the world to avoid tribulation. Instead, pray that you will be protected through it the way Jesus prayed for His followers.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Christ is not the holy place meant. Or at least that thought never crossed my mind before. I'm not entirely certain what is meant by the holy place. I'm just certain it can't be meaning a brick and mortar temple, though.
You go from acknowledging being uncertain of what the holy place is to somehow being certain of what it isn't. This does not make for a convincing argument.

Why would an AOD standing in the holy place, standing where it ought not, even matter concerning a brick and mortar temple that is obsolete once Christ died and rose?
You know I already answered this in another thread, right? I assume you know what I'm referring to here. So, read that if you haven't already and let me know what you think of what I said about this. I'm not going to have that same exact discussion and say all the same things I already said there over here.

Some of those things do appear to be involving literal events. Can they be spiritualized instead? Maybe.
No. Good luck trying to find a way to do that, though.

This illustrates the problem I have with your approach to interpreting scripture. You are coming across here as looking at this passage with doctrinal bias while trying to think of some way you can make it fit your interpretation of Matthew 24:15 instead of approaching it objectively. It clearly is literal and there is no way to spiritualize the need for people in Judea to flee to the mountains, the reference to the need to flee being a problem for pregnant women and nursing mothers and Jesus saying to pray that they wouldn't have to flee during the winter or on the Sabbath.

It could not be more obvious that those things can only apply to people literally fleeing away from Jerusalem. It makes perfect sense that people in Judea would need to flee in order to avoid getting in the way of the approaching Roman armies. It makes perfect sense that the need to literally flee from Jerusalem would be a problem for pregnant women and nursing mothers and would be a problem for people if they had to flee during the winter or on the Sabbath. There is no way to make sense of any of that in a figurative way.

This is actually pretty funny and ironic. Here I am, an Amil, showing you, a Premil, why a passage of scripture needs to be taken literally instead of figuratively or spiritually.

Except I'm not certain as to how. It for sure wouldn't make sense to spiritualize verse 15 then take the things you brought up, as literal. It has to be one or the other. It can't be both.
Exactly. So, in my opinion, you should spend more time studying and praying about this before making any kind of comments indicating that you're certain about any of it, including being certain of what Matthew 24:15 supposedly can't mean.
 
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d taylor

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I would like to your take on the following three questions concerning the return of Jesus. Thank you for your time.

1) Do you believe that the rapture/ingathering of the church will be the end of the church on the earth? In other words, do you believe the church will be gone and a new church consisting of people that just witnessed the rapture will or will not arise?

2) How many appointed times of Christ are to come, in your understanding? Do all of the scriptures concerning the return of Jesus occur at one time? Spread over two times? Three times? More?

3) Do you believe that those who follow Jesus will be surprised at His coming? As in, they did not expect Him that day.

The rapture ends the church age, do not think a new church will arise as the focus returns back to Israel.

Jesus next coming is in two parts, The first part Jesus leaves heaven to meet and gather His church in the clouds. The church and Jesus spend the 7 years (of the tribulation) in the clouds. When then at the end of the tribulation Jesus physically returns to earth to fight for Israel.

The Jews will not, as they cry out for the return of their Messiah. As for other gentile believers not really sure, if they know the Bible they should not be surprised.
 
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jeffweedaman

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I would like to your take on the following three questions concerning the return of Jesus. Thank you for your time.

1) Do you believe that the rapture/ingathering of the church will be the end of the church on the earth? In other words, do you believe the church will be gone and a new church consisting of people that just witnessed the rapture will or will not arise?

2) How many appointed times of Christ are to come, in your understanding? Do all of the scriptures concerning the return of Jesus occur at one time? Spread over two times? Three times? More?

3) Do you believe that those who follow Jesus will be surprised at His coming? As in, they did not expect Him that day.

Hi
1) Yes the end of the Church age. The end of the whole age actually.

2) Yes at one time. Jesus remains in heaven until the time of complete restoration of all things.

3) Jesus said the Son of man will come at a time when you do not think he will.....so yes.

Lk 12
39 “But be sure of this, that if the head of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into. 40 You too, be ready; because the Son of Man is coming at an hour that you do not think He will.”

41 Peter said, “Lord, are You telling this parable to us, or to everyone else as well?”

42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.
 
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Douggg

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Christ is not the holy place meant. Or at least that thought never crossed my mind before. I'm not entirely certain what is meant by the holy place.
There is something I just thought that might help you see my point about this.

As I said before, Jesus was speaking in terms of the status of the temple at that time when it was still the holy place while indicating the location where the abomination of desolation would occur.

So, let me give you an analogy that might help you understand my point. Imagine that there's a building that we knew was going to be condemned and demolished relatively soon, but we didn't know exactly when. Let's call the building "The Holy Place". But we also know that the building will be renamed "The Holy Roller Place" in a few days. Never mind why. This is just a made up analogy to make a point.

So, if I said "when you see in The Holy Place the demolition crew with their explosives then let those standing nearby flee to their cars or nearby buildings to avoid being killed by the explosives and any debris that flies out from the crumbling building", would I be wrong in calling it "The Holy Place" since it would be called "The Holy Roller Place" instead at the time it was destroyed? Or would my calling it "The Holy Place" not make people confused of what place I was talking about regardless of what it was called at the time it was actually destroyed?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Did I say anything contrary to this? No, I did not. I fully support what Jesus said there and take it to heart. So, while the above passage is true and something for us to always keep in mind, it's also true that we should be careful about being spiritually alert and being careful not to be deceived as we look forward to the return of Christ. Just as Jesus Himself taught in the Olivet Discourse, as Peter taught in 2 Peter 3 and as Paul taught in 1 Thess 5.

The only thing we need to escape from in a physical sense that would require us to be taken off of the earth is the final wrath of God that comes down on the day Christ returns. God is fully capable of protecting us while we're still on the earth until the day Christ returns. Since the final wrath that comes down will come down upon the entire earth (2 Peter 3:10-12) then obviously we'd have to be taken off of the earth at that point.

If you think this passage supports your belief in an any time rapture that occurs at least 7 years (or is it 3 1/2 years?) before the return of Christ then you are sadly mistaken.
 
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Douggg

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The only thing we need to escape from in a physical sense that would require us to be taken off of the earth is the final wrath of God that comes down on the day Christ returns. God is fully capable of protecting us while we're still on the earth until the day Christ returns.
Luke 21:34-36 does not say protecting here on earth, but escaping to stand before the Son of Man.

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If you think this passage supports your belief in an any time rapture that occurs at least 7 years (or is it 3 1/2 years?) before the return of Christ then you are sadly mistaken.


upload_2021-10-27_19-46-14.jpeg
 
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ewq1938

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Any ideas of wrath of the Lord after Jesus Returns, is not scriptural and quite impossible.

The bible disagrees:

Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.



All these are the same timeframe of the second coming from various perspectives and we can see that wrath follows his coming.
 
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The church is not mentioned in any of the verses from Revelation 6 to 19.


Not true. Candlesticks represent churches and two churches/candlesticks are part of the two witnesses and that is in Revelation 11, plus the saints are the church mentioned in Revelation 13 as they are overcome and killed so the church is very much here during the Great Tribulation. Even Revelation 20 mentioned the killed members of the church who resurrect.
 
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