20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

sovereigngrace · Oct 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
Are you saying Revelation is not the Word of God?

Why do you such futile questions of those who disagree with you? Do you think you are the epitome of truth?

keras · Oct 22, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
All I see is your opinions. The only way your argument can be maintained is by ignoring the evidence presented. This applies with every topic we engage with you. You just ignore what is before you and repeat what you have been taught. I refer you back to the side-steped facts. You seem to have no answer to these.

I gave evidence that you are wrong. YOU have side stepped me.
Of course, though; because you are cemented into the false AMill theory, you can't admit who the 'beast' of Revelation and Daniel is and what he will do in the forthcoming end times.

sovereigngrace said:
And, for the record, Daniel 7:23-26 relates to the Roman Empire, which has long died. Check the history books and you will see that.

I have read many historical books; Gibbon, Tacitus, Pliny, etc, and what Daniel 7:23-26 prophesies bears no resemblance to the Roman Empire.

You are in serious error with your beliefs and the way you attempt to force your opinions onto others, is an indictment against you.

Moriah's Song said:
It is also a fact that the word "temple" in the entire book of Revelations refers to a "heavenly temple" because of the Greek word "naos".

More error, as the word 'naos' can mean a physical Temple.
google; naos parthenon

Obviously the Temple and it's court, as per Revelation 11:1-2 must refer to a real Temple in Jerusalem, as there is no historical evidence of a 42 month period of its desecration.

Spiritual Jew · Oct 22, 2021

Timtofly said:
The resurrection of Lazarus was in the immediate future. Are you suggesting it did not happen, as a day singled out by Jesus Christ to prove He was the Resurrection and the Life? Lazarus was the first of all. The OT church at the Cross was the second group of all. At the Second Coming will be a third group.

So, you are calling Lazarus himself a group, eh? Why, I guess he was more special than I thought. You didn't even mention Christ's resurrection here. What a shame. So, what is the first resurrection in your mind then? Lazarus's resurrection?

Paul said that those who are Christ's will be resurrected at His second coming (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:13-17). Why do you have any of those in Christ being resurrected before then, which contradicts what Paul said?

And why do you have anyone being resurrected before the singular time that Jesus said was coming when ALL of the dead would be raised at that time? You contradict so many passages with your belief that I can't even keep up with it.

ShineyDays2 · Oct 22, 2021

keras said:
More error, as the word 'naos' can mean a physical Temple.

More error, as the word 'naos' cannot mean a physical Temple.

keras said:
google; naos Parthenon

I did google that and I am so grateful to you keras for inserting that in your post because it PROVES MY POINT 100%. YEAH! FINALLY!!!!!

This is from Wikipedia: Greek temples

(Ancient Greek: ναός, romanized: naós, lit. 'dwelling', semantically distinct from Latin templum, "temple") were structures built to house deity statues within Greek sanctuaries in ancient Greek religion. The temple interiors did not serve as meeting places, since the sacrifices and rituals dedicated to the respective deity took place outside them, within the wider precinct of the sanctuary, which might be large. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_temple

That is exactly like the Holy of Holies in the temple/naos in Jerusalem that the God of Creation dwelt in the tabernacle in the wilderness and then in Solomon's temple/naos. It is where only the High Priest could enter on the Day of Passover (I think) which was only once a year). It is the area that is shown in the picture I posted earlier and it is the same area that the "Artemis" idol shrine/naos was kept in in Athens, Greece. Both can use the word "shrine" for that inner sanctuary where the idol was worshiped. Also, both temples/shrines have walls that surround the temple/naos and those walls are referred to a "hieron" because it is an area that is open to the Gentiles as well as a courtyard for the Jews. Sacrifices were also made in both the Greek and the Jewish temples.

So, no keras you still have a lot to learn but I am glad you checked that out for me so I could verify it for you.

Obviously the Temple and it's court, as per Revelation 11:19 must refer to a heavenly Temple of which you ignored the 19th verse that says....

Rev 11:19...Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; [in heaven] and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

How many times do I have to post that verse before you take it literally as being in heaven and not on earth?

sovereigngrace · Oct 22, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
More error, as the word 'naos' cannot mean a physical Temple.I did google that and I am so grateful to you keras for inserting that in your post because it PROVES MY POINT 100%. YEAH! FINALLY!!!!!

This is from Wikipedia: Greek temples

(Ancient Greek: ναός, romanized: naós, lit. 'dwelling', semantically distinct from Latin templum, "temple") were structures built to house deity statues within Greek sanctuaries in ancient Greek religion. The temple interiors did not serve as meeting places, since the sacrifices and rituals dedicated to the respective deity took place outside them, within the wider precinct of the sanctuary, which might be large. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_temple

That is exactly like the Holy of Holies in the temple/naos in Jerusalem that the God of Creation dwelt in the tabernacle in the wilderness and then in Solomon's temple/naos. It is where only the High Priest could enter on the Day of Passover (I think) which was only once a year). It is the area that is shown in the picture I posted earlier and it is the same area that the "Artemis" idol shrine/naos was kept in in Athens, Greece. Both can use the word "shrine" for that inner sanctuary where the idol was worshiped. Also, both temples/shrines have walls that surround the temple/naos and those walls are referred to a "hieron" because it is an area that is open to the Gentiles as well as a courtyard for the Jews. Sacrifices were also made in both the Greek and the Jewish temples.

So, no keras you still have a lot to learn but I am glad you checked that out for me so I could verify it for you.

Obviously the Temple and it's court, as per Revelation 11:19 must refer to a heavenly Temple of which you ignored the 19th verse that says....

Rev 11:19...Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; [in heaven] and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

How many times do I have to post that verse before you take it literally as being in heaven and not on earth?

The hyper literal earthly carnal temporal mindset will never grasp the spiritual heavenly eternal reality.

keras · Oct 22, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
I did google that and I am so grateful to you keras for inserting that in your post because it PROVES MY POINT 100%. YEAH! FINALLY!!!!!

But you didn't google naos: parthenon:
Parthenon - Wikipedia
In 5th-century building accounts, the structure is simply called ὁ νᾱός (ho naos; lit. "the temple").

PROOF that 'naos' means a physical building, usually for religious purposes.
You are wrong and your use of Revelation 11:19 which does mention a Temple in heaven, absolutely doesn't preclude an earthly Temple.

People who deny the many scriptures about the new Temple for the end times and in the Millennium, have a lot to learn and the sad thing is they will learn it the hard way.

Timtofly · Oct 23, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
So, you are calling Lazarus himself a group, eh? Why, I guess he was more special than I thought. You didn't even mention Christ's resurrection here. What a shame. So, what is the first resurrection in your mind then? Lazarus's resurrection?

Paul said that those who are Christ's will be resurrected at His second coming (1 Cor 15:22-23, 1 Thess 4:13-17). Why do you have any of those in Christ being resurrected before then, which contradicts what Paul said?

And why do you have anyone being resurrected before the singular time that Jesus said was coming when ALL of the dead would be raised at that time? You contradict so many passages with your belief that I can't even keep up with it.

The first resurrection is of the physical body.

ShineyDays2 · Oct 23, 2021

keras said:
You are wrong and your use of Revelation 11:19 which does mention a Temple in heaven, absolutely doesn't preclude an earthly Temple.

Incredible!

You have been asked multiple times to provide one verse out of the mouth of Jesus while he was on earth for 33.5 years where He says that He expected to have a temple rebuilt with sacrifices reinstated or even a "memorial" other than the remembrance of his death and resurrection which we already do today at communion.

Not once have you acknowledged that Jesus said in John 4 that "we are to worship in spirit and truth." Instead you wiggle-worm your way around scripture, or avoid the truth that is presented to you.

keras said:
But you didn't google naos: parthenon:
Parthenon - Wikipedia

How do you know if I did or not???

FYI, I did google Wikipedia also and it essentially said the same thing I posted about "naos".

Quote: The interior of the Parthenon is divided into two rooms. The east room is called the Naos and it houses the statue of Athena. The Naos is 93 feet long and 63 feet wide and has a two-story colonnade around three sides. The west room is 44 feet long by 63 feet wide and is called the Treasury Room.

That is all it said. But my post provided further details which you did not go far enough to be able to exclude my more detailed research so I found a picture that compares to the "naos" in Jerusalem. Look back at my post #5839 on pg 292 for the sketch that resembles the same features God used for His three literal temples.

In the picture below, that colonnade around the three sides of the Parthenon parallels the Jerusalem temple walls and courtyards for sacrifices and worship that the Parthenon does. That cutout of the walls that enclosed the shrine/Holy of Holies in Jerusalem would be referred as the "hieron". So, no you can't legitimately use only the word "naos" to the exclusion of the walls that enclose the deity it was built for.

I'm still waiting to hear what you have to say in regards to the heavenly temple where our true God is and wishes to be "worshiped in spirit and truth" - and not in shrines like the above...

Rev 11:19...Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; [in heaven] and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

Douggg · Oct 23, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
Incredible!

You have been asked multiple times to provide one verse out of the mouth of Jesus while he was on earth for 33.5 years that He expected to have a temple rebuilt with sacrifices reinstated or a "memorial" in remembrance of his death and resurrection of which we already do today at communion.

Not once have you acknowledged that Jesus said in John 4 that "we are to worship in spirit and truth." Instead you wiggle-worm your way around scripture, or avoid the truth that is presented to you.
How do you know if I did or not???

However, I did google Wikipedia also and it essentially said the same thing I posted about "naos".

Quote: The interior of the Parthenon is divided into two rooms. The east room is called the Naos and it houses the statue of Athena. The Naos is 93 feet long and 63 feet wide and has a two-story colonnade around three sides. The west room is 44 feet long by 63 feet wide and is called the Treasury Room.

That is all it said. But my post provided further details which you did not go far enough to be able to exclude my more detailed research so I found a picture that compares to the "naos" in Jerusalem. Look back at my post #5839 on pg 292 for the sketch that resembles the same features God used for His three literal temples.

In the picture below, that colonnade around the three sides of the Parthenon parallels the Jerusalem temple walls and courtyards for sacrifices and worship that the Parthenon does. That cutout of the walls that enclosed the shrine/Holy of Holies in Jerusalem would be referred as the "hieron". So, no you can't legitimately use only the word "naos" to the exclusion of the walls that enclose the deity it was built for.

View attachment 307597
I'm still waiting to hear what you have to say in regards to the heavenly temple where our true God is and wishes to be "worshiped in spirit and truth" - and not in shrines like the above...

Rev 11:19...Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; [in heaven] and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

Moses was told to pattern the tent tabernacle as a shadow of the heavenly things. The tent tabernacle served as a mobile temple, which housed the ark of the covenant Moses was told to make.

Hebrew 8:5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

keras · Oct 23, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
I'm still waiting to hear what you have to say in regards to the heavenly temple where our true God is and wishes to be "worshiped in spirit and truth" - and not in shrines like the above..

With your intransigent mindset, anything I say won't change your beliefs.
It will not be too long now and the truths of God's Plans for our future will all be revealed.

Just note that in Eternity, there will be no Temple. Revelation 21:22
But before then, there must be a Temple; on the earth.

ShineyDays2 · Oct 23, 2021

Douggg said:
Moses was told to pattern the tent tabernacle as a shadow of the heavenly things. The tent tabernacle served as a mobile temple, which housed the ark of the covenant Moses was told to make.

Good post Doug!

I would also add that God intended for all 3 earthly "worship centers" (tent, Solomon's temple and Herod's) temples to be "shadows" of heavenly things. Shadows aren't real. You can't build a temple on top of a shadow.

Those 3 earthly temples have all been destroyed by God through adversaries. That should send a message to those here that insist on a 4th temple even though there is NO mandate from God to build one.

Even the literal Ark of the Covenant has "mysteriously" disappeared also ---- with the exception to it in Rev 11:19

"Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail."

ShineyDays2 · Oct 23, 2021

keras said:
With your intransigent mindset, anything I say won't change your beliefs.

Do you really get a thrill out of insulting and degrading people? It that a good example of a "so-called messenger of God??"

keras said:
Just note that in Eternity, there will be no Temple. Revelation 21:22

That is a straw man's argument. Of course there is no temple in Eternity!!!! NO ONE on here has ever said that.

keras said:
But before then, there must be a Temple; on the earth.

Only because dispensationalist John Nelson Darby decided there should be one. But I don't follow J.N. Darby; I follow Christ through HIS word of truth.

ShineyDays2 · Oct 23, 2021

keras said:
anything I say won't change your beliefs.

You are absolutely correct on that one!!!!

Most of what you say is not in the Bible so why should I follow you and Darby?
People have been given the freedom to choose and to believe anything they want to believe as you can tell from the Mormons, the JW's and Muslims, and the thousands of other non-Christian religions of the world but at the end of all things, false beliefs will burn with the fire.

Prove to me that out of the mouth of Jesus Himself He ever said in the 4 gospels; "keras you are my messenger and I want you to tell the world to build me a temple in Jerusalem on the very same site as the old one."

Timtofly · Oct 23, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
That is a straw man's argument. Of course there is no temple in Eternity!!!! NO ONE on here has ever said that.

Is there a physical temple in Paradise?

Can there be a physical temple on the earth at the same time?

Is there some doctrine that dictates either points are impossible?

ShineyDays2 · Oct 23, 2021

Timtofly said:
Is there a physical temple in Paradise?

No, it's spiritual. A physical temple would fall out of the sky - if you could get the parts up there to build it???

Timtofly said:
Can there be a physical temple on the earth at the same time?

"Can there be?" ....Of course, BUT it won't be God ordained nor will He come down to sit on any earthly throne that's for sure.

Jhn 4:23 - "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him."

Timtofly said:
Is there some doctrine that dictates either points are impossible?

Jhn 4:21, - Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father." 24 -God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

Timtofly · Oct 23, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
No, it's spiritual. A physical temple would fall out of the sky - if you could get the parts up there to build it???

"Can there be?" ....Of course, BUT it won't be God ordained nor will He come down to sit on any earthly throne that's for sure.

Jhn 4:23 - "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for such the Father seeks to worship him."

Jhn 4:21, - Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe me, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father." 24 -God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth."

How does one measure with a reed a non physical temple? Jesus Christ is physical and does not fall out of the sky. The sun is physical and does not fall out of the sky. How can falling out of the sky be proof of being physical?

Even humans put physical things up in the heavens, and if done right, they do not turn into spiritual objects in order to remain in the heavens.

ShineyDays2 · Oct 23, 2021

Timtofly said:
How does one measure with a reed a non physical temple?

Veeeerry carefully!!

Timtofly said:
Jesus Christ is physical and does not fall out of the sky.

Jesus Christ is now in a glorified spiritual body and will appear again and the end of this world on resurrection day and not before.

Timtofly said:
How can falling out of the sky be proof of being physical?

Huh?

Timtofly said:
Even humans put physical things up in the heavens, and if done right, they do not turn into spiritual objects in order to remain in the heavens.

Double HUH? HUH?

Timtofly · Oct 23, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
Veeeerry carefully!!Jesus Christ is now in a glorified spiritual body and will appear again and the end of this world on resurrection day and not before.
Huh?
Double HUH? HUH?

You made the claim physical items in heaven could not be physical or they would fall out of the sky. Why would you "Huh" your own point? There literally are physical things in the heavens and they do not fall out of the sky just because they are physical.

Adam and Eve were created with that spiritual glorified body. Was Adam not physical either?

keras · Oct 23, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
Prove to me that out of the mouth of Jesus Himself He ever said in the 4 gospels; "keras you are my messenger and I want you to tell the world to build me a temple in Jerusalem on the very same site as the old one."

We shall soon see:
The Lord gave me the task to promote what the Prophets said, in 2001.
I was given the verse of Zechariah 6:15 at my baptism.

I look forward to meeting you and all the Christian peoples, in the holy Land. Romans 9:24-26

ShineyDays2 · Oct 24, 2021

keras said:
The Lord gave me the task to promote what the Prophets said, in 2001.

That is not what I asked you to do. This is what I asked:

Quote: Prove to me that out of the mouth of Jesus Himself He ever said in the 4 gospels; "keras you are my messenger and I want you to tell the world to build me a temple in Jerusalem on the very same site as the old one."

I asked for proof from the mouth of Jesus Himself, not your own opinion, which has been proven on this thread that no true messenger, sent by God, (as in John the Baptist was sent by God,) twists scripture in the same manner in which has been seen throughout this thread. The way you twisted Luke 13:32 below (as well as 2 Thess 2:4) are classic examples of false prophets/messengers.

2 Pe 3:16 "There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures."

keras said:
Luke 13:32 ....Listen: today and the next day I will be driving out demons and working cures, on the third day I will achieve My goal.
Luke 13:33 However, I must go on My way today, tomorrow and the next day, because it is necessary for Me to meet My death in Jerusalem.

Verse 33, is a prophecy for the near future and did happen as Jesus said.

Verse 32 is a prophecy for the distant future and the 'days' there are 1000 year periods. As per Psalms 90:4 & 2 Peter 3:8
Jesus 'goal'; His reward, is to reign as King of the earth for 1000 years.
Psalms 2:8, Psalms 47:8-9, Zechariah 14:16-21, Revelation 20:1-10
This truth is confirmed by the fact of the 2 'days' = 2000 years, having nearly passed and the future 1000 years of Jesus reward, to follow after His Return. Hosea 6:2 is the OT reference.

From the true messenger of God concerning Hosea 6:2:

"After two days he will revive us; on the third day he will raise us up, that we may live in his presence."

Also, the prophet Jesus, prophesied telling His disciples He would be killed and then rise from the dead on the third day (Matthew 16:21). When a true messenger's of God prophecies, his prophecies always come true as in Luke 13:33 when Jesus prophesied of his goal to sacrifice his life for the salvation of mankind. This prophecy was fulfilled. (parallel John 4:19, Matt 21:11. Luke 7:16)

From the untrue messenger of God concerning Hosea 6:2:

keras: "This truth is confirmed by the fact of the 2 'days' = 2000 years, having nearly passed and the future 1000 years of Jesus reward, to follow after His Return. Hosea 6:2 is the OT reference."

No, that was not "a truth" according to the intent of the speaker -- Jesus! And, in NO way does Hosea 6:2 even come close to what you say it says!

So what was Jesus' real goal? Redemption and salvation! Jesus does not get "a reward" from his death and resurrection on the cross. It is mankind that gets the "reward of salvation" through his sacrifice!

Luk 1:68 "Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, for he has visited and redeemed his people, 69) and has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David, 70)as he spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets from of old,

Luk 13:32 And he said to them, "Go and tell that fox, 'Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I finish my course/goal. 33)Nevertheless I must go on my way today and tomorrow and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish away from Jerusalem.'

Mat 16:21 From that time Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things from the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and on the third day be raised.

The following four verses that you used also do not come close to what you made Luke 13:33 into.....

Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage, and the ends of the earth your possession.

Psa 47:8-9 God reigns over the nations; God sits on his holy throne. The princes of the peoples gather as the people of the God of Abraham. For the shields of the earth belong to God; he is highly exalted!

Deu 18:22 "when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him."

Jer 14:15 Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the prophets who prophesy in my name although I did not send them, and who say, 'Sword and famine shall not come on this land': By sword and famine those prophets shall be consumed.

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