Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

jgr · Oct 18, 2021

robycop3 said:
No, but it was an entirely-different event.

Not at all. They were both eyewitnessed credible miraculous supernatural celestial events.

Your miracles did not include observable supernatural celestial events.

Such events contemplating 70 AD would have been entirely unsurprising, given the profound prophetic significance of the ultimate complete annihilation of the Old Testament spiritual economy, and its eclipse by the New.

jgr · Oct 18, 2021

robycop3 said:
Trying to shoehorn past events into fulfillments of their assertions.

Does futurism try to shoehorn past events into unverifiable conjectures, presumptions, speculations, and imaginations of its assertions?

Leavened yet Adopted · Oct 18, 2021

robycop3 said:
If the trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue !

are we in tribulation at present or not? John was in the isle of Patmos, so was Paul in many of his journeys spreading the Gospel......are we any different?

Hammster · Oct 18, 2021

robycop3 said:
They described the events as best they could, as they didn't know the REAL causes of such events.

I thought they were prophets delivering God’s word.

But really, you have to know that your theology is a house of cards. It can only be propped up by completely ignoring the OT references in Matt 24. “Coming on the clouds” “sun, moon, stars” etc have a specific meaning in the OT that has to be ignored in order for your view to even begin to make sense.

JSRG · Oct 18, 2021

robycop3 said:
No, unless it's the Jewish priests. However, unusual events such as the eruption of Vesuvius in 79 AD were recorded by someone somewhere. And chariots in the sky woulda been much-more-unusual than a volcanic eruption. (Just about every eruption of Mt. Aetna back then was recorded by several people.)

Vesuvius isn't all that great of an example, I don't think; Vesuvius was right in the backyard of the Romans, and it had a much bigger effect, destroying multiple cities. Seeing chariots in the skies would have been unusual, but had little effect on the whole, and certainly no real effect on the Romans. There would be far more reason to mention Vesuvius than people off in Israel seeing something weird in the sky, which the Roman historians may have simply dismissed as Jewish superstition.

Certainly, the fact Josephus is the only one to mention it means it's less credible than if we had multiple sources. But I don't think it's necessarily odd that Josephus is the only one to mention it given the aforementioned considerations. Or were there historians who were writing specifically about that time period in Israel who could have mentioned it?

jgr · Oct 18, 2021

JSRG said:
Vesuvius isn't all that great of an example, I don't think; Vesuvius was right in the backyard of the Romans, and it had a much bigger effect, destroying multiple cities. Seeing chariots in the skies would have been unusual, but had little effect on the whole, and certainly no real effect on the Romans. There would be far more reason to mention Vesuvius than people off in Israel seeing something weird in the sky, which the Roman historians may have simply dismissed as Jewish superstition.

Certainly, the fact Josephus is the only one to mention it means it's less credible than if we had multiple sources. But I don't think it's necessarily odd that Josephus is the only one to mention it given the aforementioned considerations. Or were there historians who were writing specifically about that time period in Israel who could have mentioned it?

Supernatural celestial phenomena were also independently recorded by Tacitus (Histories, v. 13); and in the Midrash (Lam. 2:11). (h/t parousia70).

Such phenomena contemplating 70 AD would have been entirely unsurprising, given the profound prophetic significance of the ultimate complete annihilation of the Old Testament spiritual economy, and its eclipse by the New.

robycop3 · Oct 19, 2021

jgr said:
If they don't care for history, why do they continually cite historians?

Trying to find one whose writings support their assertions.

robycop3 · Oct 19, 2021

jgr said:
Not at all. They were both eyewitnessed credible miraculous supernatural celestial events.

Your miracles did not include observable supernatural celestial events.

Such events contemplating 70 AD would have been entirely unsurprising, given the profound prophetic significance of the ultimate complete annihilation of the Old Testament spiritual economy, and its eclipse by the New.

The Old Covenant completely ended at Jesus' death, which "sealed" the New Covenant. it didn't wait til AD70.

robycop3 · Oct 19, 2021

jgr said:
Does futurism try to shoehorn past events into unverifiable conjectures, presumptions, speculations, and imaginations of its assertions?

No, it's based upon Scripture.

robycop3 · Oct 19, 2021

Leavened yet Adopted said:
are we in tribulation at present or not? John was in the isle of Patmos, so was Paul in many of his journeys spreading the Gospel......are we any different?

No, Scripture says the great trib will be the worst set of catastrophes of all time.

robycop3 · Oct 19, 2021

Hammster said:
I thought they were prophets delivering God’s word.

But really, you have to know that your theology is a house of cards. It can only be propped up by completely ignoring the OT references in Matt 24. “Coming on the clouds” “sun, moon, stars” etc have a specific meaning in the OT that has to be ignored in order for your view to even begin to make sense.

How do you KNOW God didn't come on the clouds?

robycop3 · Oct 19, 2021

JSRG said:
Vesuvius isn't all that great of an example, I don't think; Vesuvius was right in the backyard of the Romans, and it had a much bigger effect, destroying multiple cities. Seeing chariots in the skies would have been unusual, but had little effect on the whole, and certainly no real effect on the Romans. There would be far more reason to mention Vesuvius than people off in Israel seeing something weird in the sky, which the Roman historians may have simply dismissed as Jewish superstition.

Certainly, the fact Josephus is the only one to mention it means it's less credible than if we had multiple sources. But I don't think it's necessarily odd that Josephus is the only one to mention it given the aforementioned considerations. Or were there historians who were writing specifically about that time period in Israel who could have mentioned it?

Both Roman & Jew knew what a volcano was. But chariots in the sky woulda been astounding to Roman & Jew alike, or to any other people present at the time, same as it would be to US. Some people once saw a mirage of a military parade, in an area where mirages are common. But they were not & are not common in the Jerusalem area, A would've certainly been well-noted.

Hammster · Oct 19, 2021

robycop3 said:
How do you KNOW God didn't come on the clouds?

He did. That’s my argument.

jgr · Oct 19, 2021

robycop3 said:
The Old Covenant completely ended at Jesus' death, which "sealed" the New Covenant. it didn't wait til AD70.

Old covenant Jerusalem and old covenant trappings were destroyed in 70 AD. God mercifully granted a generation for Israel to turn to Him. It didn't.

jgr · Oct 19, 2021

robycop3 said:
No, it's based upon Scripture.

Historical Scriptural prophetic fulfillment is more than based upon Scripture.

It affirms and confirms Scripture.

jgr · Oct 19, 2021

robycop3 said:
Trying to find one whose writings support their assertions.

No trying necessary. Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius, et al.

What historians support your assertions?

Can you cite just one recognized defender of the true faith, in the entirety of Christian history prior to the 19th century, who denied the supernatural celestial phenomena reported by Josephus et al?

Just one.

Name, date, source and verbatim quote, please.

robycop3 · Oct 19, 2021

jgr said:
Old covenant Jerusalem and old covenant trappings were destroyed in 70 AD. God mercifully granted a generation for Israel to turn to Him. It didn't.

ACTUALLY, the destruction was the culmination of the "days of vengeance" Jesus pronounced against that generation of Jews.

robycop3 · Oct 19, 2021

jgr said:
Historical Scriptural prophetic fulfillment is more than based upon Scripture.

It affirms and confirms Scripture.

And history does not have the eschatological events in it because those events haven't yet occurred.

jgr · Oct 19, 2021

robycop3 said:
ACTUALLY, the destruction was the culmination of the "days of vengeance" Jesus pronounced against that generation of Jews.

True.

And omens of that destruction were witnessed in the supernatural celestial phenomena reported by Josephus et al.

robycop3 · Oct 19, 2021

jgr said:
No trying necessary. Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius, et al.

What historians support your assertions?

Can you cite just one recognized defender of the true faith, in the entirety of Christian history prior to the 19th century, who denied the supernatural celestial phenomena reported by Josephus et al?

Just one.

Name, date, source and verbatim quote, please.

None that I know of. Tacitus wrote from what he'd read from Josephus, as Eusebius likely did as well. Most who read it dismissed it as a tall tale.

But actually chariots in the sky is NOT part of the eschatological events. Jesus descending on horseback is. And, as He said, He will be visible to ALL when He returns.

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