The Waters Above the Firmament

BeyondET · Oct 8, 2021

Dale said:
Chad Kincham: “ So you’re unaware that there are vast networks of caverns and caves worldwide?”

Are you aware that to cover the top of Mt. Everest would take seven times as much water as we have in the world today? Are there caverns large enough to hold that much water?

I am well aware of caverns. I tour every cavern I pass that has public tours, including Mammoth Caverns and Carlsbad Caverns. I also know something about how they are formed. They are formed because of rain on the surface, which percolates down and dissolves certain minerals. Since creationists keep telling me there was no rain before the Flood, it follows that there would be no caverns before the Flood, either.

Even if huge caverns existed containing huge amounts of water, it would have to be under great pressure to burst out in great geysers. The only time that happens in our world is where there are “thermal areas” in places like Yellowstone National Park. There high temperatures under the ground heat water to boiling until it burst out to the surface. The Bible doesn’t say that Noah faced boiling water, so that can’t be what happened in the Flood.

If vast caverns existed before the Flood, holding huge amounts of water, it is reasonable to think that creationists would look for them, and they should find them. Or geologists would already have found them. I can’t imagine how that could release enough water to cover Mt. Everest.

All the water on the surface of the earth is but a little ball in comparison to the size of earth, the deepest parts of the ocean miles down are but a puddle. it doesn’t take much to flood even miles high either if the reverse happens already.

Now that is deep

chad kincham · Oct 8, 2021

Dale said:
Chad Kincham: “ So you’re unaware that there are vast networks of caverns and caves worldwide?”

Are you aware that to cover the top of Mt. Everest would take seven times as much water as we have in the world today? Are there caverns large enough to hold that much water?

I am well aware of caverns. I tour every cavern I pass that has public tours, including Mammoth Caverns and Carlsbad Caverns. I also know something about how they are formed. They are formed because of rain on the surface, which percolates down and dissolves certain minerals. Since creationists keep telling me there was no rain before the Flood, it follows that there would be no caverns before the Flood, either.

Even if huge caverns existed containing huge amounts of water, it would have to be under great pressure to burst out in great geysers. The only time that happens in our world is where there are “thermal areas” in places like Yellowstone National Park. There high temperatures under the ground heat water to boiling until it burst out to the surface. The Bible doesn’t say that Noah faced boiling water, so that can’t be what happened in the Flood.

If vast caverns existed before the Flood, holding huge amounts of water, it is reasonable to think that creationists would look for them, and they should find them. Or geologists would already have found them. I can’t imagine how that could release enough water to cover Mt. Everest.

Apparently you missed the fact that mountains were raised higher by God post-flood at the same time he deepened the basins so the flood waters had somewhere to go, thus rendering your statement about the height of Everest moot.

I’ll stick with the word of God that says that to recede the flood waters, God deepened the valleys, which raised the mountains:

Psa 104:6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.

Psa 104:7 At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.

Psa 104:8 The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them.

Psa 104:9 You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth.

BeyondET · Oct 8, 2021

huh just learned, only 20% of the ocean floor has been mapped as of 2020 using satellites, is there a deeper trench out there could be. Takes about 10 years to map 10% least that is the current pace

BeyondET · Oct 8, 2021

chad kincham said:
Apparently you missed the fact that mountains were raised higher by God post-flood at the same time he deepened the basins so the flood waters had somewhere to go, thus rendering your statement about the height of Everest moot.

Seems the old growing mountains theory is becoming a past theory.

Fast -forming mountain ranges

chad kincham · Oct 9, 2021

BeyondET said:
Seems the old growing mountains theory is becoming a past theory.

Fast -forming mountain ranges

I’ll stick with the word of God that says that to recede the flood waters, God deepened the valleys, which raised the mountains, thanks.

Psa 104:6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.

Psa 104:7 At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.

Psa 104:8 The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them.

Psa 104:9 You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth.

BeyondET · Oct 9, 2021

chad kincham said:
I’ll stick with the word of God that says that to recede the flood waters, God deepened the valleys, which raised the mountains, thanks.

Psa 104:6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains.

Psa 104:7 At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight.

Psa 104:8 The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them.

Psa 104:9 You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth.

That surely went over the brow!

Dale · Oct 10, 2021

BeyondET said:
Seems the old growing mountains theory is becoming a past theory.

Fast -forming mountain ranges

Beyond,
Your source says that the Andes may have been thrust up by tectonic movements in as little as a million years.

That isn't slow enough to satisfy a creationist.

Sunshinee777 · Oct 11, 2021

Aussie Pete said:
That's the problem with organised religion, which I reject. God has only one test. Are you alive or dead?

I don't know what "creationism" is exactly. If you mean do I take God's word at face value, then I am a creationist. What is the alternative? That God lies in His word when He says that He created, formed and made everything that we see?

I've not been inclined to read Ken Ham. I do read some "Creationist" web sites.

If I see a conflict between God's word and anything else, I believe God's word. That includes history, sociology, religion and anything else that the world promotes to argue against God's word. Satan's first attack on Eve was to cast doubt on God's word - "Has God said.........?" If believing God's word makes me a creationist, I plead guilty.

I agree. It’s all in the bible. People will be misled when they try to understand God’s creation with their own understanding.

BeyondET · Oct 11, 2021

Dale said:
Beyond,
Your source says that the Andes may have been thrust up by tectonic movements in as little as a million years.

That isn't slow enough to satisfy a creationist.

if they are not sure about a billion then why should i believe a million, could of been quicker than that.

Job 33:6 · Oct 11, 2021

BeyondET said:
if they are not sure about a billion then why should i believe a million, could of been quicker than that.

The article never suggested the [Andes or himilayas] were previously believed to be a billion years old, nor has any geologist ever suggested such a thing. Are you intentionally being dishonest here?

BeyondET · Oct 12, 2021

Isaiah 41:10 said:
The article never suggested the himalayas were previously believed to be a billion years old, nor has any geologist ever suggested such a thing. Are you intentionally being dishonest here?

Hmm really, i was referring to mountain ages in general, like some geologists think are 3.2 billion years old. I wasn't quoting the link, as you are implying, and is offensive you didn't even ask what i meant by a billion.

Job 33:6 · Oct 12, 2021

BeyondET said:
Hmm really, i was referring to mountain ages in general, like some geologists think are 3.2 billion years old. I wasn't quoting the link, as you are implying, and is offensive you didn't even ask what i meant by a billion.

The article is about the Andes and himilayas, not some other random mountain chains.

And not only this, but the article isn't even talking about the age of the rocks that make the mountain, it's talking about the timing it took for the mountain to rise from a horizontal elevation. Just as it takes time for you to rise out of bed, but this time that it takes is not equivalent to your total age.

You said: "if they are not sure about a billion then why should i believe a million, could of been quicker than that." "i was referring to mountain ages in general".

They, are talking about the Andes and himilayas.
And they never suggested that either of these mountain chains were anywhere even close to a billion years old.

Nor has any mountain on earth ever been suggested to have grown/risen from a horizontal position over a billion years or "3.2 billion" as you randomly just brought up. What mountain have you heard any geologist ever say had risen or lifted over the course of billions of years? None have (not to be confused with the total age of the rocks that had risen).

Your response is just completely off-target. And if not intentionally deceptive, then it was made simply out of carelessness over whether anything you said was actually factual or not.

BeyondET · Oct 12, 2021

Isaiah 41:10 said:
The article is about the Andes and himilayas, not some other random mountain chains.

And not only this, but the article isn't even talking about the age of the rocks that make the mountain, it's talking about the timing it took for the mountain to rise from a horizontal elevation. Just as it takes time for you to rise out of bed, but this time that it takes is not equivalent to your total age.

You said: "if they are not sure about a billion then why should i believe a million, could of been quicker than that." "i was referring to mountain ages in general".

They, are talking about the Andes and himilayas.
And they never suggested that either of these mountain chains were anywhere even close to a billion years old.

Nor has any mountain on earth ever been suggested to have grown/risen from a horizontal position over a billion years or "3.2 billion" as you randomly just brought up. What mountain have you heard any geologist ever say had risen or lifted over the course of billions of years? None have (not to be confused with the total age of the rocks that had risen).

Your response is just completely off-target. And if not intentionally deceptive, then it was made simply out of carelessness over whether anything you said was actually factual or not.

Everything's I say for the rest of life isn't a statement about the link.

But thank you for telling me you don't care about what I meant but only what you want my post to be.

Dale · Oct 15, 2021

coffee4u said:
You know what God said to Job:
“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

So were you there? Did you see God create?

It's one thing to say "I believe Genesis doesn't contain accurate information about science, geography or even history." You can believe whatever you like, that doesn't make you correct.

I'm a creationist and I have never thought or said that. I assume the ancients knew very little. God told them things without expecting understanding. He expected faith, trust and and obedience.

I don't know about 'modern Christians', whatever that means, but as a creationist I would never skip over it. The firmament was where a considerable amount of the global flood waters came from. The other was from water under the surface.
Genesis 7
11 In the six hundredth year of Noah’s life, on the seventeenth day of the second month—on that day all the springs of the great deep burst forth
The water from under the earth
, and the floodgates of the heavens were opened.
The water contained in the firmament
12 And rain fell on the earth forty days and forty nights.

Before the flood there was no rain. The ground was kept watered from the water source underneath the earth.
Genesis 2:6
but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

Which is why the rainbow in Geneses 8 was such a big deal. The rainbow occurs as we known when droplets and light is reflected. It hadn't happened before because there hadn't been rain before. This is why it was such an important symbol.
Genesis 9:13
I have set my rainbow in the clouds, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and the earth.
It was a sign of a new covenant with the new world. This world was not like the old world. Things were different, the firmament protecting the world had gone and there was ash in the sky from the eruptions during the flood.
Because of the changes man was now given meat.
Genesis 9:3
Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.
Man was given meat because God knew they needed a quick source of protein if he was going to survive in the new harsh climate.

After the firmament came down, what was left was a thin atmosphere of cloud, it is what we have now and our source of rain. I am sure they looked up to the sky as their source of rain too, why wouldn't they?

Salt in the ocean is mainly caused by rain washing minerals from the land into the water, The salt came from the land not the rain.

We know water came from above and from below during the flood and that the world was made out of water.
2 Peter 3
5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, 6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
To say the flood wasn't real you also have to toss out Peter.

It was the world that perished, not a valley or a county, the entire world. Which would also be why the ocean is so salty, it took a lot of minerals being washed out of the soil all over the world to make water that salty. Quite possibly salt water was another feature of this new world.

They didn't have to. They didn't understand why God wanted them to quarantine outside the camp for 7 days either.
Many people will follow rules if a well reasoned argument is put forth as to why they should. We understand that its safest in a fire to get down on the floor. We do so because we know that's good sound advice. God didn't give them reasons, because if he had given them reasons they may have followed those laws from their own human wisdom. God wanted them to follow them because they trusted and had faith in him.
Trusting Him means shifting your confidence in yourself over to confidence in him.Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding;

No I don't expect clouds to be mentioned in the account of Noah for the reasons I said before, clouds as we know them are a post flood phenomenon. At the time of the flood they lived under the firmament which kept the earth warm like a blanket. We can only imagine what the sky looked like to Noah before the flood, probably just a uniform grey.

You seem very fixated on their understanding. Their understanding or lack of it is of no importance. They didn't have to understand, only trust and obey.

Coffee << You know what God said to Job:
“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

So were you there? Did you see God create? >>

I could ask creationists the same question. Did you witness the six days of creation to know whether they are literal days? Did you see whether it rained before the Flood? Or whether there Was a literal world-wide Flood? I don’t think so.

Creationists assume that large parts of the Bible are literal because they assume that God thinks the same way they do.

Dale · Oct 15, 2021

coffee4u said:
You are pulling out verses that have nothing to do with the specifics of this thread.
I am only talking about Psalm 104 verse 5 because you used it incorrectly to try and prove a point.

In that case I could pull out one myself.
Psalm 98:8
Let the rivers clap their hands, let the mountains sing together for joy;
Does this mean I can make up a teaching saying that rivers have hands and that mountains sing words? I think not. It's poetry. Which is exactly what Psalm 104 verse 5 is.
You who laid the foundations of the earth,
So that it should not be moved forever,
You can no more make a teaching saying the earth is sitting up on bricks and mortar than I can say the hills sing. Both are using poetic language.

I am not looking up the other verses as I have no time plus it is diverting off the topic at hand, which is what you are trying to do. Could make for an interesting thread of its own though.

Coffee: << You are pulling out verses that have nothing to do with the specifics of this thread.
I am only talking about Psalm 104 verse 5 because you used it incorrectly to try and prove a point. >>

I quoted the words of Jesus to show that the Psalms are more than mere poetry, and you dismiss them. Specifically, I quoted John 10:33-36, where Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6.

I can’t help you if you don’t listen to Jesus.

coffee4u · Oct 15, 2021

Dale said:
Coffee << You know what God said to Job:
“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.

So were you there? Did you see God create? >>

No I wasn't, which is why I only go by what God says.

Does scripture teach evolution? Be honest Dale, do you see anything indicating evolution in scripture?

Starting at Exodus 20:1
1. And God spoke all these words:

11. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

God said it, not me. It's part of the ten commandments.

coffee4u · Oct 15, 2021

Dale said:
Coffee: << You are pulling out verses that have nothing to do with the specifics of this thread.
I am only talking about Psalm 104 verse 5 because you used it incorrectly to try and prove a point. >>

I quoted the words of Jesus to show that the Psalms are more than mere poetry, and you dismiss them. Specifically, I quoted John 10:33-36, where Jesus quotes Psalm 82:6.

I can’t help you if you don’t listen to Jesus.

I am not dismissing them, Psalms contains great truths and teachings as do the parables of Jesus.
But parables and poetry use poetic language and not every word is meant to be taken literally.
Which is why I gave an example of 'the trees clap their hands' We all know trees don't have hands nor do they clap them. The words are not meant to be taken literally, it is meant to create an image of trees leaves blowing together in the breeze.

power1 · Oct 18, 2021

Dale said:
God inspired the creation stories in Genesis to bring spiritual truths to the ancient Israelites. It brought the spiritual truth that the one true God created all that exists. At the same time, the creation stories in Genesis do not contain accurate information about science, geography or even history. The ancient Israelites understood very little about the physical world, and the Genesis accounts let that stand. Creationists assume that the ancients knew more than they really did.

The first chapter of Genesis tells us that God separated the waters, so that there are waters below the sky and waters above the sky. In the King James Version, these are the waters above the firmament and the waters below the firmament.

And God said, “Let there be an expanse between the waters
to separate water from water.”
So God made the expanse and separated the water under the
expanse from the water above it. And it was so.
God called the expanse “sky”. And there was evening, and
there was morning — the second day.
Genesis 1:6-8 NIV

And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst
of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
And God made the firmament, and divided the waters
which [were] under the firmament from the waters which
[were] above the firmament: and it was so. And God
called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the
morning were the second day.
Genesis 1:6-8 KJV

Modern Christians tend to skip over details like the separation of the Waters Above the Firmament from the Waters Below the Firmament. Or if you prefer, the separation of the Waters Above the Sky from the Waters Below the Sky. There is no doubt what this meant to the ancient Israelites. The Waters Above the Sky were the source of rain. It is also likely that they thought the Waters Above the Sky were the source of the blue color of the sky.

To me, the separation of the waters above and below seems to be an incomplete explanation. If there was a huge mass of salt water before God separated the waters, it looks like the Waters Above the Sky would be salt water. In that case, it would rain salt water. Obviously that isn’t so. Perhaps God left all the salt in the Waters Below the Sky? If so, Genesis doesn’t say so.

Genesis 1:9-10 says that God “gathered” the waters under the sky. In other words, God marked boundaries for the seas. Genesis doesn’t say anything about the ocean having a bottom, so it is possible that the Waters Below and the Waters Above are both intended to be infinite. The Israelites never worried that the Waters Above the Sky would be exhausted, leading to the end of rain.

The Israelites did not understand the water cycle, that the sun’s warmth causes water in the seas and elsewhere to evaporate. Water vapor then forms clouds, which produce rain, snow and also sleet and hail when conditions are right. As a child, I can remember being puzzled when the water level in a glass of water went down even though no one drank from it. “Water evaporates,” my mother told me.

While these things are well understood today, there were not known in Biblical times. We might expect storm clouds to be mentioned in the story of Noah and the Flood. Genesis doesn’t mention clouds before the Flood, but it does mention clouds in connection with the rainbow after the Flood.

In Ecclesiastes we find:

All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full. To the
place the streams come from, there they return again.
Ecclesiastes 1:7 NIV

The author of Ecclesiastes is amazed that the sea never overflows, despite all of the worlds rivers and creeks emptying into it. He knew nothing of the water cycle.

Further evidence that the ancients did not understand the water cycle is found in Job.

[God says,]
“Have you entered the storehouses of the snow or seen the
storehouses of the hail,
which I reserve for times of trouble, for days of war and battle?
Job 38:22-23 NIV

The Israelites didn’t realize that snow is simply an alternate form of rain, depending on the temperature. The Israelites saw hail as a sign of God’s power, as a sign that God could bring destruction on anyone, any army or any kingdom, at any time. They did not realize that hail is formed by condensing water in the clouds under the right conditions. They didn’t realize that snow and hail come from much the same process that produces rain. Instead, they imagined “storehouses of the snow” and “storehouses of the hail.”

The following link leads to a scholarly article that backs up these points. The Israelites, like other ancient peoples, saw the sky as a solid barrier.

The Westminster Theological Journal 53 (1991) 227-40 Copyright © 1991 by Westminster Theological Seminary, cited with permission. WTJ 53 (1991) 227-240 THE FIRMAMENT AND THE WATER ABOVE Part I: The Meaning of raqiac in Gen 1:6-8 PAUL H. SEELY

https://faculty.gordon.edu/hu/bi/te...s/Text/Articles-Books/Seely-Firmament-WTJ.pdf

How would we know if it rained salt water in the flood or not?

coffee4u · Oct 18, 2021

power1 said:
How would we know if it rained salt water in the flood or not?

Exactly.

Dale · Oct 18, 2021

coffee4u said:
No I wasn't, which is why I only go by what God says.

Does scripture teach evolution? Be honest Dale, do you see anything indicating evolution in scripture?

Starting at Exodus 20:1
1. And God spoke all these words:

11. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

God said it, not me. It's part of the ten commandments.

Coffee:“Does scripture teach evolution? Be honest Dale, do you see anything indicating evolution in scripture?”

I’ve seen nothing that indicates that God ever intended the Bible to be used as a textbook of science, history or even geography. That was why I started this thread, to point out the men who wrote the Bible did not understand the water cycle, one of the most basic points of practical physical science.

A famous quote from Galileo: “The Bible teaches us how to get to heaven, not how the heavens go.”

I don’t know if you are familiar with that quote, but think about it.

The existence of a Stone Age is well established. It is estimated that there are a trillion stone age artifacts in Africa. Yet the Bible makes no mention of a Stone Age. In Genesis Four, we are already in the Iron Age.

Where does the Bible say, “Don’t examine the sky too closely, there’s no telling what you might find.” Where does the Bible say, “Don’t look at the rocks too closely, there’s no telling what you might find.” It doesn’t say any such thing.

You ask me if the Bible teaches evolution. Did the Bible tell us to use penicillin?

Coffee:“No I wasn't, which is why I only go by what God says.”

It looks like you see what you want to see when you look at the Bible.

The Waters Above the Firmament

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